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[Peter J Barban]

According to 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, Paul encourages the church to prophesy, in order to build up the church. This church ministry was not limited to the 12 apostles, but rather a part of local church ministry.

"14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy."

Strengthening, encouraging and comforting the church are still necessary today. Since lay prophecy was a clear practice in Bible times, is there a clear biblical reason that it should not be practiced today?

 

[Extraneous]

According to 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, Paul encourages the church to prophesy, in order to build up the church. This church ministry was not limited to the 12 apostles, but rather a part of local church ministry.

"14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy."

Strengthening, encouraging and comforting the church are still necessary today. Since lay prophecy was a clear practice in Bible times, is there a clear biblical reason that it should not be practiced today?

Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Since lay prophecy was a clear practice in Bible times, is there a clear biblical reason that it should not be practiced today?

Thanks for the post,

Yes, there are good arguments for why this gift may have ceased, and I hold that opinion myself (but I'm not very dogmatic about it)

Before we get to that question however, we must define what this gift is, and that isn't easy, and it would take this thread off track, as it's not about prophesy.

 

[Peter J Barban]

The reason that I bring up prophecy is that it requires hearing the voice of God. Paul's purpose is to encourage people to hear the voice of God and proclaim the message to the church.

Paul makes it clear that the purpose of prophecy, that is the hearing and proclaiming of God's words, is to edify the church, not to add to the scriptures.

Likewise, hearing the voice of God does not imply adding anything to scripture. It only implies God speaking to edify his people. And often the message is just for the one who hears it.

Consequently, hearing God's voice today does not violate the canon of scripture. Virtually no one who hears God's voice believes that they can add to the scripture. Therefore, this is a straw man argument.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And often the message is just for the one who hears it.

There is no biblical example or prescription for this. Where is God giving, or promising to give, personal, verbal messages to anyone in the texts? Yet, because God "spoke to you" you have this idea which has no biblical backing whatever. This is what adding to what God has revealed is. You are doing it right here.

hearing God's voice today does not violate the canon of scripture. Virtually no one who hears God's voice believes that they can add to the scripture. Therefore, this is a straw man argument.

People have done it in this very thread. Read though it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Simply saying, "God told me" puts all of the words that follow on par with scripture. If God told you something then that means it is 100% correct and not open for discussion or debate.

I hear self-appointed teachers often say, "God gave me this teaching" or "God gave me a word". When that is done, it is adding to scripture, and it removes any threat of argument from someone who would question the teaching.

In other words, disagreeing with anyone who says "God told me" is no different than disagreeing with God.

 

[Extraneous]

.

 

[Peter J Barban]

thatbrian said,
"There is no biblical example or prescription for this. Where is God giving, or promising to give, personal, verbal messages to anyone in the texts?"

In fact, there are such examples in the Bible.
See 2 Corinthians 12:3-4. "And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

Paul heard things from God that were only for him.

The same as John in Revelation 10:4; "And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

So there are Bible cases of God giving verbal messages which were for an individual and not recorded in the Bible.

This reinforces my biblically true point that the purpose of hearing from God is not for the addition of scripture, rather it is for edification. There is no refutation of this in the Bible.

 

[Don Maurer]

How do you think that God speaks to us?
I mean using tons of Scripture verses to show how.

The claim that you use scripture is interesting. I have addressed the scripture you use and exegetically or contextually demonstrate that your are using it out of context. Your reply is not counter exegesis, but a complaint that I never use scripture.

I do understand this claim that you use scripture and I do not. What you are really saying is that we use scripture in two totally different ways. We believe in a historical, grammatical, contextual approach to scriptures. Your use of scriptures focuses on one word or phrase taken out of the propositional context.

There are great issue of communication. We are too far apart on some very basic issues such as the propositional nature of scriptural revelation. We would not even agree on the need to draw doctrines from the bible in a historical grammatical contextual fashion.

I know that in the past, you agreed with something vaguely close to sola fide, but I continued to wonder if you would be consistent in that doctrine. Would you sign a doctrinal stated that calls for salvation to be by faith? ......I would not. Unless the statement asks for salvation by faith "alone" I would not sign it.

 

[Don Maurer]

Likewise, that's what people do when they exalt their Church as the Authority, instead of exalting only the Word. They try to say that they speak for God and no one should dare question their word, but instead submit to them. Do you know anyone who does that?

I did not ready the whole thread at this point. It is moving too fast. But I think I know the players in this thread. I am quite certain this is a false accusation against thatbrian. If you look in his "Faith" it is Presbyterian." Now the word Presbyterian can be vague, many in the PCUSA can be quite liberal. Somehow, I do not think Brian is among them. I would guess OPC or PCA. In that case, if Brain agreed to your statement, he could potentially be put up for Church discipline. The accusation you make against him would definately place him in violation of the Westminster Confession. Why would you make such an accusation?

 

[Extraneous]

.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Hi Don Maurer, I think that it's noble for you to defend thatbrian and I agree with your judgement of his position on the Bible vs Church Authority.

However, I don't see any such accusation against thatbrian in Extraneous's recent posts.

 

[Don Maurer]

Likewise, that's what people do when they exalt their Church as the Authority, instead of exalting only the Word. They try to say that they speak for God and no one should dare question their word, but instead submit to them. Do you know anyone who does that?

Hi Don Maurer, I think that it's noble for you to defend thatbrian and I agree with your judgement of his position on the Bible vs Church Authority.

However, I don't see any such accusation against thatbrian in Extraneous's recent posts.

Thank you for correcting me, I think I may have misread his words and taken them in a way that is different than he intended. I did take his words as disagreement and a rebuke to brian that brian was putting his church on the same level of authority as scripture. I now see that Extraneous may have been agreeing with brian that others put their church on the same level of authority as scripture.

IF you are correct, this was not the fault of Extraneous, but my own fault for not going back and getting the history of the argument. I will have to admit here that the thread is moving way to fast and I have limited time to keep up now. I jumped in when I was home sick from work and was not doing anything. Well, I will continue to check in once in a while, but I have to go to work right now. Later.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In fact, there are such examples in the Bible.
See 2 Corinthians 12:3-4. "And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

You are defending examples of everyday people are claiming that God speaks to them multiple times a day. Do you really think that this text is confirming that?

Paul heard things from God that were only for him.

The same as John in Revelation 10:4; "And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”

Again, to call this backing for what people in this thread express, is to insult my intelligence. Not that I'm so intelligent, but this is so insulting.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I know the players in this thread. I am quite certain this is a false accusation against thatbrian.

You are correct, Don. The comment was intending to goad me, and the person in question has been reported for it. I have asked that he not post on threads I start, but he has an axe to grind, and he's been very offensive at times, so it might be best to not interact with him. Hopefully the mods will take care of it.

For the record, Don, you were also correct regarding the denomination. I'm in the PCA.

 

[Extraneous]

You are correct, Don. The comment was intending to goad me, and the person in question has been reported for it. I have asked that he not post on threads I start, but he has an axe to grind, and he's been very offensive at times, so it might be best to not interact with him. Hopefully the mods will take care of it.

For the record, Don, you were also correct regarding the denomination. I'm in the PCA.

You never asked me that, and i wasn't goading, but was asking a legitimate question. Don't worry however, i think i will avoid your threads from now on, as you request, and the forums they are in as well.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I do understand this claim that you use scripture and I do not. What you are really saying is that we use scripture in two totally different ways. We believe in a historical, grammatical, contextual approach to scriptures. Your use of scriptures focuses on one word or phrase taken out of the propositional context.

How we use scripture is such a great point, Don. If we say, Peter walked on water. The Bible says so, and try it, we will drown. Reading ourselves into the Bible, we take a descriptive text and making it a prescriptive text. . .

There are a one hundred ways to misread scripture. What we have seen a little of in this thread is what I call "verse theology". It's what you've described above. Rip a verse out of its context and then build your doctrine.

 

[Peter J Barban]

thatbrian,

If you care to review my 6 previous posts, you can confirm for yourself that I have not referred to "examples of everyday people are claiming that God speaks to them multiple times a day". Nor am I attempting to defend such people. As you may remember, I said that I don't assume others are actually hearing from God just because they say so.

I do defend the position that God speaks to people today and specifically to me.

As for intelligence, when I was a child, my school tested my IQ. After a long while, I asked my mother about my IQ test results. She just smiled and said, "It's not a high as you think it is." Since, then, just to be safe, I assume that my IQ is over 200. You may safely assume that my IQ is somewhat less.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If you care to review my 6 previous posts, you can confirm for yourself that I have not referred to "examples of everyday people are claiming that God speaks to them multiple times a day". Nor am I attempting to defend such people. As you may remember, I said that I don't assume others are actually hearing from God just because they say so.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

I do defend the position that God speaks to people today and specifically to me.

Let's talk about that then, if you care to. What are the hows, whens, whys, etc. of this phenomenon ?

As for intelligence, when I was a child, my school tested my IQ. After a long while, I asked my mother about my IQ test results. She just smiled and said, "It's not a high as you think it is." Since, then, just to be safe, I assume that my IQ is over 200. You may safely assume that my IQ is someone less.

My experience was just the opposite. My results were much higher than expected, so I guess my parents had low expectations of me.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

What does?

I was saying YIKES to
Hearing (prophesying?) something that can't be backed up in scripture - ie: special revelation.. Joseph Smith, cult leaders, etc.