.

[sunlover1]

If I misrepresented you, it was unintentional. But I do not think I misrepresented you. The reason I think that is because you changed your language and have a change in concept. How did I misrepresent you?

Thank you for the clarification.
Maybe should have just asked me.

Below is your previous statement....
..... and now for your current statement.

While I need God to show me exactly where He wants this
"lively stone" to be set, in His "spiritual house", I do have
His Word hidden in my heart. I'm not going to be tricked
by the devil and go to some cult. It's BECAUSE I know HIs
Word and ways that I can have confidence to hear Him.

Your first statement was in the context of direct revelation. I do not think any concept of current direct revelation today is Christian.

That's because of your faulty understanding of His Ways.
Doesn't make you correct, but I can understand how
you've come to such a conclusion, and that's fine for you
You can get through this earthly life in this manner.

Your first statement seemed clear that you would not use the scriptures to find Gods will on which Church to attend.

Not at all.
I didn't say no to Scripture.
But i would NEVER choose a church based on what their statement of faith is.
I've attended churches that way before,. men can 'say' what they want.
You need to know where GOD wants me... He has a place for each of us!

I disagreed, it is only the scripture (sola scripture) that I would use to determine which Church to attend. Your second statement is watered down and much more vague. When you use the term "lead" that leaves it open for either something revelatory (which is wrong), or something related to what the old puritans called the providence of God (which is fine).

No it's not wrong at all.
Revelation is EXACTLY how our God speaks to us.
He "RE veals" things that were right in front of us
all the while, yet we were too blind to see them!
He does this through our conscience, so it's imperative
that we don't allow the wrong teachers to speak to our
hearts and muck up our paradigms. We need to STUDY
the Word, and we need to ask GOD to "reveal" it to us.
God's the same yesterday today and forever, and just as
Christ (Perfect Theology) helped the men on the road to
"get it", He will/does the same for us! Luke 24:35

Please do not consider this a personal attack, but sitting where I am with my theology, anyone who proposes that God is still speaking today... I would see them as making an attack on the sufficiency of Scripture. The key word is "sufficiency." That was why I quoted 2 Tim 3:17.
If you need another special revelation along side scripture, then scripture is not the only inerrant/infallible authority for practice and living. If scripture is the only special revelation, it is the only final authority and this would be the highest view of scripture. To have a 2nd source of revelation outside scripture means that scripture is insufficient and more revelation is needed. If the bible is sufficient, why do you need another revelation?

Because our God is not a book
I need Scripture to "know" God,
but it's GOD HIMSELF that I talk to.
And He reaches down and talks to me too.

I'm guessing you do NOT sing this song:

If you say you would consult scriptures at this point, that is fine. However, this by no means settles the difference. I would still understand you to imply that a special revelation outside scripture would be needed to know which Church you would choose. Even if you consult the scriptures first.

That is exactly right. I do need my Father to tell me where to go.
I'm a sheep who NEEDS to hear His voice.

The Bible alone is the word of God.

Missing God, this is pretty sad.

Yes, a quite different world view with serious differences. In fact I would have no problem recognizing the different positions and completely different religions. I am aware there are some moderates in your camp ...

MY "camp"??
Please go on.
What 'camp' am I in?
The camp that sings the song above?
Guilty as charged.

I did not misrepresent the words you typed. You might be able to say I did not grasp everything you said, you are welcome to explain to me in more detail how I did this. And if I did misrepresent you, it was unintentional. I do not believe I misrepresented the words you typed. In fact, I cannot help but think your accusation is an attempt to throw some emotion and fog into the conversation. I will assume that this is not true.

You are free to your assumptions, but it's assumptions that caused the problem.
I pointed it out so that it won't happen again AND so the reader can understand
what's going on in case they're late to the party.
You indeed misrepresented me.

Of course there is a reformed doctrine that lies in back of this. Even behind the OP was the doctrine of sola scriptura, and a closed Cannon. If fact the author of the OP even used the term "closed cannon." This is the real issue. I would suggest you write an article attacking those doctrines.

Yet, you jump right in again with your assumptions.
I never suggested ADDING to Scripture, and in fact, if you
look further you will see that I have defended SS for many
years here in GT.

 

[sunlover1]

Is that scriptural?

Iron sharpens iron!

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The idea the God talks back to us when we pray has become so accepted that it's difficult to challenge, but is it true or a cliché?

I like to believe He speaks to me through scripture and subtle and quiet moments of insight and intuition. No he isn't going to knock a tree down in front of one path to make me walk another, but I will get an idea of where He wishes to lead me when I get to the fork in the road. Scripture reading tends to help with deciphering such moments. I think it is both honestly.

Scripture can only handle so many situtations and if I am going to deal with other cltures

 

[Arsenios]

If a man has refused to obey God's word
and set himself in opposition to God's clear commands
with no intention to repent,
does God hear his prayers?

Well, God did finally relent...
and grant unto Pharoah ...
the hardness of heart ...
that Pharoah had so fervently
been insisting upon...

Of course, he did not know...
The Red Sea was awaiting him...

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

Do you see where the rationalization of using your interpretation of scripture can fall apart ?

Certainly, or yours.
We're fallible indeed!

Two people interpret the scriptures differently. One believes they say one thing about God (for example, that He does not audibly speak to anyone, or if He did, He does so no longer, etc), another believes they say yet another (He does audibly speak still to people, or if not audibly, He is able to speak in other ways, apart from a person reading the scriptures only). So both people are at odds, using their interpretation of scripture as the litmus test, to recognize what is of God, and what isn't. Yet, both are at odds in their identification. So simply saying "I believe scripture on faith" doesn't resolve the issue, because lots of people do that, and are unable to collectively identify interactions with God. And the scriptures themselves show this very issue within the accounts in their pages: both the well-learned and the hardly-learned were unable to agree on identifying the nature of Jesus. Many, obviously, got the identification incorrect. Likewise, the scriptures themselves attest to false prophets, those claiming things that are merely the fabrication of their dreams and not of God, those who have "lying spirits", etc.

And here's a great example of misunderstanding what's written.
When I said, I believe Scripture on faith" I was speaking in context
of the post I replied to that I believe Gen- Rev IS Scripture, and I
believe this by faith (for the most part)

Let's say that the apostle Paul was alive, in the flesh. Now, three random males are hiding behind a barrier which prevents you from seeing them, but you can hear them, and they start to read to you from one of Paul's books ... they are merely reading verbatim what is written in the books. How would you identify which one is Paul, and which one's aren't, merely from their voice ? They are reading Paul's words, verbatim, and all you have is their voice to identify which one is the actual Paul.

Now imagine you have to choose between 1 million men all doing the same thing, reading from one of Paul's books, verbatim. Could you pick out which one was the one and only Paul the apostle from voice alone from 1 million options ?

With so many people claiming to interact with God, while using interpretation of scripture as their litmus AND still disagreeing with each other on what is actually being said by God to them or not ... how does this issue get resolved ?

And back to the "angel of light" scenario ... how do you know you aren't hearing and interacting with an "angel of light" who is merely saying all the right things to you ?

Perhaps I am not very good at communicating, but i will say it one more time.
It's BECAuse of hiding His word in my heart, that I can KNOW His voice.
If you have read every single work of Shakespeare, let's say ALL you've read
your entire life is the Bard and some guy was standing at your window speaking
to you about the birds or the sky, not even quoting Shakespeare you would KNOW
that it was him by the things he says, because you "know" him.
But that's just a feeble attempt to use things seen to try
to explain things unseen. we as children of the Most
High God, have His very Spirit within us! and ALL of His
promises, which make it so clear that if we ASK Him
something, He'll answer.
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God,
who gives to all generously and without reproach,
and it will be given to him.

And we're told to be "AS CHRIST" in the world.
Well Jesus went off to be alone with God and He
said that the ONLY did what He learned to do from
the Father.
Well WE have this promise:

John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,
He will guide you into all the truth;
for He will not speak on His own initiative,
but whatever He hears, He will speak;
and He will disclose to you what is to come.

 

[TillICollapse]

Except that unlike any writings purportedly by Homer or Pythagoras:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-- John 14
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.-- John 15

And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say, For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. -- Luke 12


Homer never claimed to send a Holy Spirit to continue to give counsel. You have to provide evidence that Jesus was lying.

Again, what is written is a side issue to the positive identification of someone who is claiming to interact with God in real time. Or, the Holy Spirit if you like.

Let's go with your scriptural example though for a moment. And let's take the example you gave above even, of what happened with you and your marriage in prayer. How do you make the positive ID that it was the Holy Spirit/God/etc? My point, is that even if you have an example that aligns with scripture in some fashion, and the voice you are hearing or experiencing is in alignment with your interpretation of scripture, etc ... how do you still make the positive ID ? An alternate theory would be it's another spirit, merely saying what you want to hear. Or it's another spirit, using a scriptural basis and your own interpretation for their agenda. Or, it's your imagination at play. And for those whom would give credence to the idea you actually are experiencing something spiritual .. to you, you may believe it's God/Holy Spirit/etc "talking to you", while another person believes you have tapped into the Akashic records (New Age) via some spiritual mechanism, and yet another person believes aliens from Sirius are communicating with you telepathically. How do you resolve the issue to make the positive identification when there is a conflict ? Referencing scripture, or even the voice itself referencing scripture with you ... only goes so far. It doesn't resolve the conflict of identification.

On a side note, "You have to provide evidence that Jesus was lying." ... that's not how burden of proof works. The one making the claim, provides the evidence for their claim. And my understanding of scripture is that even Jesus essentially held this view of His own words, FWIW.

 

[TillICollapse]

DP

 

[TillICollapse]

Certainly, or yours.
We're fallible indeed!


And here's a great example of misunderstanding what's written.
When I said, I believe Scripture on faith" I was speaking in context
of the post I replied to that I believe Gen- Rev IS Scripture, and I
believe this by faith (for the most part)


Perhaps I am not very good at communicating, but i will say it one more time.
It's BECAuse of hiding His word in my heart, that I can KNOW His voice.
If you have read every single work of Shakespeare, let's say ALL you've read
your entire life is the Bard and some guy was standing at your window speaking
to you about the birds or the sky, not even quoting Shakespeare you would KNOW
that it was him by the things he says, because you "know" him.
But that's just a feeble attempt to use things seen to try
to explain things unseen. we as children of the Most
High God, have His very Spirit within us! and ALL of His
promises, which make it so clear that if we ASK Him
something, He'll answer.
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God,
who gives to all generously and without reproach,
and it will be given to him.

And we're told to be "AS CHRIST" in the world.
Well Jesus went off to be alone with God and He
said that the ONLY did what He learned to do from
the Father.
Well WE have this promise:

John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,
He will guide you into all the truth;
for He will not speak on His own initiative,
but whatever He hears, He will speak;
and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Let's go with your Shakespeare analogy.

Some guy standing at your window, speaking about things the way Shakespeare would ... doesn't mean that person is Shakespeare. It may give you a reason to think he is, but he may not be. He may be a fan. He may be of like mind. He could be Shakespeare, but he may also not be.

If you have three such men, standing among each other, all sounding like Shakespeare .. then what ? An even closer analogy, would be having thousands or perhaps millions of men, all claiming to be Shakespeare, and all sounding like Shakespeare. Could you make a positive ID amongst them all ? Or would you assume they were all Shakespeare ? This is the issue faced when trying to make a positive identification as to who is interacting or communicating with God.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, God did finally relent...
and grant unto Pharoah ...
the hardness of heart ...
that Pharoah had so fervently
been insisting upon...

Of course, he did not know...
The Red Sea was awaiting him...

Arsenios

Another example is King Ahab, who so fervently insisted on not knowing the Lord's opinion of his going to war with Syria...that the Lord sent to him a lying spirit, as if to say "You really don't want the truth? Okay, I'll make sure you don't get the truth."

 

[RDKirk]

Again, what is written is a side issue to the positive identification of someone who is claiming to interact with God in real time. Or, the Holy Spirit if you like.

If the same mission were not upon us today in this "real time," then it would not be necessary for the Holy Spirit to be the same Holy Spirit now as he was in the 1st century. When they no longer "bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers," then there will no longer be a need for a Holy Spirit to "...teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

On a side note, "You have to provide evidence that Jesus was lying." ... that's not how burden of proof works. The one making the claim, provides the evidence for their claim. And my understanding of scripture is that even Jesus essentially held this view of His own words, FWIW.

Yes, you're right. I have provided scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit will operate forever as Jesus said He would operate, explicitly counseling us in real time as we need Him to continue the Lord's mission. You are asserting this is not true, so the burden of truth is on you.

 

[Willis Gravning]

I think of prayer as similar to a plant turning it's leaves toward the sun. The sun doesn't need the plant but the plant needs the sun. We turn our hearts toward God and let His light shine on them. No conversation necessary.

 

[sunlover1]

Let's go with your Shakespeare analogy.

Some guy standing at your window, speaking about things the way Shakespeare would ... doesn't mean that person is Shakespeare. It may give you a reason to think he is, but he may not be. He may be a fan. He may be of like mind. He could be Shakespeare, but he may also not be.

If you have three such men, standing among each other, all sounding like Shakespeare .. then what ? An even closer analogy, would be having thousands or perhaps millions of men, all claiming to be Shakespeare, and all sounding like Shakespeare. Could you make a positive ID amongst them all ? Or would you assume they were all Shakespeare ? This is the issue faced when trying to make a positive identification as to who is interacting or communicating with God.

Like He said, HIS sheep KNOW His voice.

 

[sunlover1]

Another example is King Ahab, who so fervently insisted on not knowing the Lord's opinion of his going to war with Syria...that the Lord sent to him a lying spirit, as if to say "You really don't want the truth? Okay, I'll make sure you don't get the truth."

This is another gem we need to remember.
I always figured that if we FILL our hearts with truth (God's Word)
then we will be almost bullet proof.

Scripture never, ever actually says anything that corresponds directly with anything anyone ever experiences in life today...unless you allow for the Counselor to be as active today as Christ claimed He would be.

Not without some significant interpretation and extrapolation. A testimony:

During a period about 25 years ago, my marriage was at an exceptionally low point. My wife and I were separately beginning to decide that our marriage had failed--indeed, it was in the process of failing. I was up in our bedroom on my knees praying to the Lord to tell me what to do to keep my marriage intact.

I was certainly not undergoing a conscious review of scriptures in my mind, but in the midst of asking "Lord, what should I do?" this scripture burst upon my consciousness: "Love your wife."

I argued with the Lord: "Look, Lord, I do what I'm supposed to do as a husband."

But in response to that came an implicit further understanding that "Love your wife" meant "as she craves to be loved" rather than "as you think you've done what you're supposed to do."

I argued further: "What if I love her that way and she still does not respond?"

The response was clear: "What she does is My business. Will you obey me?"

So I said, "Okay. I'll love her as she wants to be loved even if she doesn't respond." I got up off my knees and went downstairs to tell her exactly that.

She met me halfway up the stairs. She had been in the kitchen also praying for a way to save our marriage. She told me that the Holy Spirit had given her, "Submit to your husband." She said she had argued, "What if I submit to him and he still doesn't love me?" She said the Holy Spirit had told her, "What he does is My business. Will you obey me?"

And she was coming upstairs to tell me that she would.

Aww geee, should have added a caveat, this brings tears!
Glad i'm not wearing mascara .
Thanks for this story!
I hope many of us could share such a story.
(God dialoging with us, His sheepish kids)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm of the position that the purpose of prayer is that it changes us, by submitting to God's will, to be hearers of God's word in Scripture, it makes us more flexible, more malleable. Prayer isn't about "hearing" an audible response, or receiving a sensation in return that we can interpret as God; it's about the invitation of God into Himself, to shape us and mold us, by submitting to His good will and allowing prayer to transform us. Prayer and worship shapes how we believe and how we live.

-CryptoLutheran

I started the thread thinking about a couple of common things I hear. The first is that a "quiet time" is quiet because we are to pray and then "listen" for a response. The second is in the area guidance. "God told me" to do this or that.

Both uses seem troubling using using scripture as our guide.

Your post in spot on in that *we* are the ones who need change. God does not change because He does not receive new information, as He already knows all.

Scripture is where we can rest the weight our eternal souls, and we glean wisdom to deal with all the test of life's decisions as we are taught, learn, and walk in newness of life. No voice or feeling is reliable for either.

 

[sunlover1]

I like to believe He speaks to me through scripture and subtle and quiet moments of insight and intuition. No he isn't going to knock a tree down in front of one path to make me walk another, but I will get an idea of where He wishes to lead me when I get to the fork in the road. Scripture reading tends to help with deciphering such moments. I think it is both honestly.

Scripture can only handle so many situtations and if I am going to deal with other cltures

He almost knocked a tree down for me one time,
I STILL Missed it!!
TOTALLY changed the course of my life.
Good thing He can even fix the fixes we get into.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I like to believe He speaks to me through scripture and subtle and quiet moments of insight and intuition. No he isn't going to knock a tree down in front of one path to make me walk another, but I will get an idea of where He wishes to lead me when I get to the fork in the road. Scripture reading tends to help with deciphering such moments. I think it is both honestly.

Scripture can only handle so many situtations and if I am going to deal with other cltures

I am certain that He leads every Christian. I'm also certain that we are unaware of it most, if not all of the time.

We can use wisdom in decision making and God expects us to. We don't need a voice from Heaven for every fork in the road, though.

 

[sunlover1]

I am certain that He leads every Christian. I'm also certain that we are unaware of it most, if not all of the time.

We can use wisdom in decision making and God expects us to. We don't need a voice from Heaven for every fork in the road, though.

A voice from God you mean?

I just had a text from a loved one asking for prayer for someone in another
state who was given a 24 hour window to live.
Reminded me of the time my aunt phoned me to say that they were taking
uncle off of life support and the family was called to say bye.
I've shared this before, but thought of this thread, so after praying i came to post.

I'd BEEN praying for uncle for a time, he'd been in hospital dying for a couple weeks
perhaps.. Now all systems were shutting down. He'd been on a ventilator, bowels were
final thing to shut down iirc. Got the call from his sis, and hung my head
and headed towards prayer closet (master suite).. I was SO discouraged, and as
i closed my bedroom door I heard these words, "it aint over til I say it's over!"
It was a BOOMING voice of authority!
I lifted my head! and I began praying with fervor and mountain moving faith!

This was in the afternoon. I awaited the evening phone call telling me that they
had pulled the plugs and a miracle happened.

And that's the very call I received.
This was a few years ago.
He, who'd been a drunk all his life,
never took another drop!
To God be the glory!

"My Sheep HEAR my VOICE"
AMEN!

 

[sunlover1]

Asking for prayer from all who have faith.
For a man named stan, he's a new granddad
We can all agree and our Father will do it!
(Unless it's his time)

 

[swordsman1]

Listening to and obeying voices in your head sounds like dangerous mysticism to me. Surely if voices in your head is the common means of God instructing his people there would be undoubted clarification of such in scripture? I don't see anywhere that advocates listening to inner voices or feelings as being God's everyday method of instructing us. "My sheep hear my voice" is obviously metaphorical. We are not literally sheep, and we do not literally hear a voice speaking to us. No, it clearly means His followers will heed His teaching.

Instead I see plenty of verses instructing us to apply the principles found in His word to our lives:

Psalm 19:7-11 "The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward."

Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another"

James 1:25 "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."

 

[tickingclocker]

All of nature constantly speaks of God to anyone willing to listen (Romans 1:23, Psalm 98:8).

God's Word never fails to say what He needs us to know:
Isaiah 40:8 ** The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

Nobody can talk me out of what I know I hear when God speaks to my heart.
Nobody can talk me out of what I know, that God never fails to hear what I have to say to Him.