.

[BornAgainChristian1]

OK. How can you prove that to me? What's the basis for your assertion?

I'm in agreement with you that all we need to know about theology is found i the bible and once we inject our "feelings" about what we think you wind up with many different denominations which in this present age are far from the word of God.

 

[Alithis]

Should our understanding of God (theology) be based on our own reasoning or feelings, or on the texts of holy scripture?

Given a written exam, most Protestant Christians would agree with the statement, “the Bible is our only rule for faith and practice”; however, spend more than an hour on CF, and you will discover that, in practice, many trust their feelings, intuition, experiences, and even their goosebumps over the what the written written Word of God has declared.

I asked someone for a biblical backing for a statement he/she made. This was the reply: "you don't need to reference a book to understand reality." It's a perfect example of what I see on CF, and it explains the question I'm asking.

What's your theology based on?

the theology must always be based solely on the word of god first and foremost.. and always . we canot discredit feeling utterly but they are not the rule ,,they can be deined by the rul of his word but are not to ever redefine the word (and cannot ) the word of god is ALWAYS the final rule .. ie a person may feel ill , the feeling of illness is horrible and a genuine "feeling" ,the word of god says we are to lay hands on the sick and they shall recover (we pray with all faith and sincerity.
at this point there are two opposing factors present .. the feelings and the word of God .. one is evident the other is truth . which do we act upon ? we act upon the truth (or should if we really do believe -sorrowfully this is rare ion western mindset feelings based christianity )

So while we do not discredit feelings just because we may not understand why a person is having them ..we NEVER base theology upon them . and this is the great error i know your referring to . becaseu when people base thier theology on the feelings the theology will fail them as fast as the feelings can dissipate -the word of God causes faith and faith is substance. the feelings have no substance .

 

[KirkPsalm]

I would like to know how you "hear" or perceive God's communion with you.
@Kersh

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

the theology must always be based solely on the word of god first and foremost.. and always . we canot discredit feeling utterly but they are not the rule ,,they can be deined by the rul of his word but are not to ever redefine the word (and cannot ) the word of god is ALWAYS the final rule .. ie a person may feel ill , the feeling of illness is horrible and a genuine "feeling" ,the word of god says we are to lay hands on the sick and they shall recover (we pray with all faith and sincerity.
at this point there are two opposing factors present .. the feelings and the word of God .. one is evident the other is truth . which do we act upon ? we act upon the truth (or should if we really do believe -sorrowfully this is rare ion western mindset feelings based christianity )

So while we do not discredit feelings just because we may not understand why a person is having them ..we NEVER base theology upon them . and this is the great error i know your referring to . becaseu when people base thier theology on the feelings the theology will fail them as fast as the feelings can dissipate -the word of God causes faith and faith is substance. the feelings have no substance .

There is much wisdom in your words.

 

[Kersh]

I would like to know how you "hear" or perceive God's communion with you.
@Kersh

I'm not quite sure how to describe it other than how I have already. It's a subtle thing, and I didn't immediately recognize God's voice, even as a believer. I'd liken in to Elijah's experience in 1 Kings 19. That's about as near as I can get to a description.

 

[keltoi]

Should our understanding of God (theology) be based on our own reasoning or feelings, or on the texts of holy scripture?

The latter.

What's your theology based on?

The Bible.

I know I'm late to this but I thought I'd stick my nose in here and just say a couple of things.

If we use our reasoning or feelings then we are just going to crumple up into a ball and say God is so unfair because he let all this bad stuff happen. If we use God's reasoning/feelings we would see that God has given us, as he has all of his creation, free will even though he knows exactly what will happen.

Our reasoning skills and our feelings have developed in a culture that demands logic, fact, and reality. This started with people like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates and has developed slowly through time and has become the major influence on the western world's method of reasoning. God, who knows everything, doesn't need logic.

The Bible was written by people who had a very different cultural background to us they didn't have the desire to analyse every minute detail of their lives, they had faith and faith was enough for them. They trusted God.

What do we do in the modern age? We analyse everything and try our hardest to make it fit into our logic, which it never will. If we (this is a generalisation for humanity) think something is missing from the Bible we say what is missing and then we come up with theories that fill the hole we think is there. We then say "because it isn't in the Bible it can't be discounted and because it is logical it must be true". Our reasoning demands that for there to be truth there can be no doubt so we have to fill in what we don't really know or understand with something that simply isn't in the Bible.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The latter.

The Bible.

I know I'm late to this but I thought I'd stick my nose in here and just say a couple of things.

If we use our reasoning or feelings then we are just going to crumple up into a ball and say God is so unfair because he let all this bad stuff happen. If we use God's reasoning/feelings we would see that God has given us, as he has all of his creation, free will even though he knows exactly what will happen.

Our reasoning skills and our feelings have developed in a culture that demands logic, fact, and reality. This started with people like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates and has developed slowly through time and has become the major influence on the western world's method of reasoning. God, who knows everything, doesn't need logic.

The Bible was written by people who had a very different cultural background to us they didn't have the desire to analyse every minute detail of their lives, they had faith and faith was enough for them. They trusted God.

What do we do in the modern age? We analyse everything and try our hardest to make it fit into our logic, which it never will. If we (this is a generalisation for humanity) think something is missing from the Bible we say what is missing and then we come up with theories that fill the hole we think is there. We then say "because it isn't in the Bible it can't be discounted and because it is logical it must be true". Our reasoning demands that for there to be truth there can be no doubt so we have to fill in what we don't really know or understand with something that simply isn't in the Bible.

Well said. I've been so liberated as I've learned to trust God over my own reason. I trust my capacity to reason, but I know that when there is a conflict between His Word and my reason, He is always right. That should be a given for any Christian; however, sadly, it's not.

 

[keltoi]

Well said. I've been so liberated as I've learned to trust God over my own reason. I trust my capacity to reason, but I know that when there is a conflict between His Word and my reason, He is always right. That should be a given for any Christian; however, sadly, it's not.

you are right it is liberating. I think we can all learn to trust God and his word over out own reasoning skills. It took me years and because of my/our western background it is not easy to overcome but if I can do it I would say most people can.

 

[Alithis]

I'm not quite sure how to describe it other than how I have already. It's a subtle thing, and I didn't immediately recognize God's voice, even as a believer. I'd liken in to Elijah's experience in 1 Kings 19. That's about as near as I can get to a description.

the question your reply to is one of the most sort after jewells in a decipes life .. to hear our masters voice (and i use the word "voice" lightly ) i understand you cant get past this description .
all i could advice any one is //pray more .. spend more time in prayer praying with the understanding praying i the spirit (tongues) singing in both also and reading the word of God and persevere and be patient .sometimes it take the flesh a while to be cut away and circumcised away from the spirit so we can learn to hear with the spirit as we worship God who IS spirit ,IN spirit and in truth . hearing is learning, hearing is obeying.. concentrate on the one thing we feel he is telling us to do no matter how great or small. and do that -after that you wil know if you heard and obeyed you wil know .. there is that thing we ALL must walk in ..its called FAITH and some things are learned by FAITH and while a knowledge ABOUT THEM can be passed to us the experience of learning canot .. we must use Faith ourselves in order for faith to grow .

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I sense that you are skeptical about the idea that God speaks to his sheep. If that's the case, I'd ask why you would believe the Bible (which is essentially a collection of writings of people who heard God's voice and wrote it down

Prophets and the few other figures used by God to hear and proclaim His word, did not just "hear His voice and wrote it down". They were people chosen by God specifically for that purpose. They were .000001% of the nation of Israel, but we have here 99% claiming frequent conversations with Almighty God.

 

[keltoi]

spend more time in prayer praying with the understanding praying i the spirit (tongues) singing in both also and reading the word of God and persevere and be patient

May I ask you to clarify what you mean here?

 

[Alithis]

May I ask you to clarify what you mean here?

spend more time in prayer praying with the understanding praying in the spirit (tongues) singing in both also and reading the word of God and persevere and be patient.

the lord jesus said .. except you abide in me you can do nothing -i sume nothing ..includes being able to hear him speaking to your heart. he speaks to us by his holy Spirit . learning to hear his holy Spirit is essential . so we must abide in him as he is in us .

other then that which part did you want clarification on ?

 

[keltoi]

other then that which part did you want clarification on ?

Just the (tongues) bit.

What i am trying to ascertain is why you are putting tongues in brackets. Are you saying it is necessary to speak in tongues to understand what God is telling us?

 

[Cis.jd]

Not all Christians are Sola Scriptura adherants, and that may account for some of the
strange views in GT.
OTOH, we can find some strange interpretations of Scripture too, and we have milk
drinker, meat eaters and all shades of in-between

The apostles didn't follow Sola Scriptura either. The scripture is the word of God but we also have to be honest that it has translations, metaphors, symbology, etc etc that one has to be careful about their interpretations. If one isn't careful with it and starts politicing his interpretation, then it can lead into strange views and division.

 

[Cis.jd]

My theological stand point is more of the academical value. You would know the value of this when you hear the arguments from Atheists and other various faiths that try to either refute or mock what Christians believe. We have to know scripture because they will attack that 90% of what is in there at the time and they will use academics misinformed interpretations they got from Christian attacking sites so I believe we have to be equipped to know how to defend from the skeptic and the anti-theistic by playing their game.

For example, the Muslims believe that the Bible is the word of God --the second revelation (the Quran being his final writing). They believe/claim that
1. the Bible we have today is corrupted - according to them, "there is no verse in were Jesus says 'I am God worship me (in these exact line)"
2. The early Christians never believed Jesus was God but just a prophet, it was not until Rome adopted Christianity that Jesus became worshiped and written/believed to be God.

No matter what verse you give them in support of the Holy Trinity or Jesus' divinity, they will always use a verse that speaks about his humanity as "proof" that we are wrong. You will not be able to convince them that their scriptural understanding is incorrect so that is why academical knowledge is needed.

We know their allegations against Jesus is false not just because we know the Bible more but history supports our claims.
1. Whenever historians try to research about the Historical Jesus, they do not turn to the Quran or any other source but the New Testament (first), much more the book of Acts.
2. The events of Nero prove that early christians did worship Jesus, all death and prison records written by people like Plinny the Younger record that the Christians were singing hymns to Christ as to a god. With addition to every single anti-christian writer such as Celsus, Lucian, and Nero's top men recording and mocking Christians for worshiping a man who was crucified in Palestine.

Every single belief has a version of Jesus, a prophet, a reincarnation, demi-god, St Michael, just a good teacher, an avatar, etc etc...
All those beliefs came hundreds of years after the original one which is the: Son of God, The eternal word who became flesh, and the Messiah.

The truth about God is found in more places than just the Bible itself.

 

[keltoi]

The apostles didn't follow Sola Scriptura either. The scripture is the word of God but we also have to be honest that it has translations, metaphors, symbology, etc etc that one has to be careful about their interpretations. If one isn't careful with it and starts politicing his interpretation, then it can lead into strange views and division.

Can you elucidate what other particular texts (of any type) the Apostles used?

 

[Kersh]

Prophets and the few other figures used by God to hear and proclaim His word, did not just "hear His voice and wrote it down". They were people chosen by God specifically for that purpose. They were .000001% of the nation of Israel, but we have here 99% claiming frequent conversations with Almighty God.

A couple of observations here: First, I don't think that prophesy was nearly as rare as you seem to think it was. I don't know of any evidence to suugest that every prophet was mentioned in the Bible. But, I would doubt that any of the biblical authors did not directly hear the voice of God.

Another thing is this. Even if very few people in the nation of Israel heard God's voice, Jesus radically changed things. First, he came to live among us, literally God in human flesh living among us. He said that his sheep would know hos voice and follow it. John 10:27. He also said that he would send the Holy Spirit, literally God's Spirit living in us, to teach us, lead us, counsel us, and advocate for us. John 14.

 

[2 know him]

Should our understanding of God (theology) be based on our own reasoning or feelings, or on the texts of holy scripture?

Given a written exam, most Protestant Christians would agree with the statement, “the Bible is our only rule for faith and practice”; however, spend more than an hour on CF, and you will discover that, in practice, many trust their feelings, intuition, experiences, and even their goosebumps over the what the written written Word of God has declared.

I asked someone for a biblical backing for a statement he/she made. This was the reply: "you don't need to reference a book to understand reality." It's a perfect example of what I see on CF, and it explains the question I'm asking.

What's your theology based on?

Our understanding of God should not be limited to the bible, as most of what is written in the bible was written from revelation. Maybe the real problem is that people are not growing in knowledge and thus they are stuck in a faith that is uninspired. Jesus said: you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, BUT YOU WILL NOT COME TO ME AND LIVE. Eternal life is not in the scriptures: it is found in the life of Christ and how does one embrace the life of Christ? By obedience: through walking in his teachings. It is not in knowledge that we know God, it is in sharing in His life that we know Him and that is had through oneness of living.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[2 know him]

I've had a few different spiritual experiences, all in different denominations. Some could be described as the shells were removed from my eyes and others probably leaned more to feelings and being caught up in the moment. But at the end of the day those experiences served more as oasis' in the desert of my journey through the valley of death then a an all encompassing catechisis on God's will for my eternal life. If I were going to bet my life on it 'and we do' it's that the truth=God's word shall set us free.

Jesus said if you continue in my words you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Now if you mean that Jesus (who is the word of God, made flesh) will set you free from sinning, as he clearly stated in the scriptures I will attach below, I agree, but if you infer to the book we call the bible as being God's word (which it s not), then I am sad to see you believe what you do.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Cis.jd]

Can you elucidate what other particular texts (of any type) the Apostles used?

They didn't use any text. They followed what Jesus told them, please do not ruin this thread.