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Biblically the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred at a specific time and place--in the upper room in Jerusalem, on Pentecost.
Nothing in the whole of Scripture says that the baptism with the Holy Spirit mentioned by St. John the Baptist is a private, individual experience. In every case where it is spoken about it is spoken about in relation to what happened on Pentecost, a unique historical event in the history of the world, corporately. When it happens yet again in the house of Cornelius this is as a sign of God's acceptance of the Gentiles.
Note that never again does this happen, and never again is "baptism with the Holy Spirit" mentioned outside of its connection to these specific events in the narrative of Acts.
-CryptoLutheran
What do you base it on?I was the most introspect Christian until Luther saved my life with his work on alien righteousness. That's a story for another day, but I mention it because basing God's presence on feelings is not much different than basing God's approval on feelings. Both are unhelpful. The latter will ruin you life.
Who are you to say what I experience II was the most introspect Christian until Luther saved my life with his work on alien righteousness. That's a story for another day, but I mention it because basing God's presence on feelings is not much different than basing God's approval on feelings. Both are unhelpful. The latter will ruin you life.
Earlier today I read some posts where more than one person claimed that goosebumps and tingling feelings in the chest were absolute proof that the Spirit of God was present in a church. To say that I was shocked would be an understatement, but they were adamant, of course.
Sadly, all of this stuff detracts from the preaching (and hearing) of the gospel - the true power to save and change lives. People easily let experience trump word and sacrament when they are caught up in this stuff.
Only twice I have not had this experience at church...iTheI just chalk it up to I did not have anything to learn from the sermon..
Of course he IThe thing about intense emotional experiences is that they can be very, very overwhelming; and our personal attachment to the significance which we attach to the experience can be very, very strong.
But we must--simply must--understand that these experiences are not the substance of the Spirit's presence in our lives or in the Church. The substance is in the external, objective means which God has richly blessed His church with. We can be confident that when the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is most certainly present--our subjective feelings and experiences making no difference on this fact.
Would you confess the active work of the Spirit and His presence even if you felt and experienced nothing? Simply on the fact that where and when Christ's Word is preached the Spirit is alive and active? Or do you depend on these experiences to measure and gauge the Spirit's presence?
Think long and hard about this.
-CryptoLutheran
thing about intense emotional experiences is that they can be very, very overwhelming; and our personal attachment to the significance which we attach to the experience can be very, very strong.
But we must--simply must--understand that these experiences are not the substance of the Spirit's presence in our lives or in the Church. The substance is in the external, objective means which God has richly blessed His church with. We can be confident that when the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is most certainly present--our subjective feelings and experiences making no difference on this fact.
Would you confess the active work of the Spirit and His presence even if you felt and experienced nothing? Simply on the fact that where and when Christ's Word is preached the Spirit is alive and active? Or do you depend on these experiences to measure and gauge the Spirit's presence?
Think long and hard about this.
-CryptoLutheran
Glad u have all the answersBiblically the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred at a specific time and place--in the upper room in Jerusalem, on Pentecost.
Nothing in the whole of Scripture says that the baptism with the Holy Spirit mentioned by St. John the Baptist is a private, individual experience. In every case where it is spoken about it is spoken about in relation to what happened on Pentecost, a unique historical event in the history of the world, corporately. When it happens yet again in the house of Cornelius this is as a sign of God's acceptance of the Gentiles.
Note that never again does this happen, and never again is "baptism with the Holy Spirit" mentioned outside of its connection to these specific events in the narrative of Acts.
-CryptoLutheran
[QUOTE="thatbrian, post: 69415524, member: 37
Sorrh you have not experienced this this...nothing wrong with you...just may experience things differently
Do u guys think everything that u havent experienced means it isnt real? Wow! Talk about nerve and pride and holier than thou syndrome! Last I checked we are not here to see who has the "biggest" religion... someone s not being very christlike
Glad u have all the answers
Do u guys think everything that u havent experienced means it isnt real? Wow! Talk about nerve and pride and holier than thou syndrome! Last I checked we are not here to see who has the "biggest" religion... someone s not being very christlike
And because of this "tingling in the chest area" you know that the Spirit of God is present?
There is nothing wrong with feelings and emotions, but obviously TRUTH isn't grounded on them. I didn't see any poster saying goosebumps was an absolute sign of His presence -- goodness, and if they did, let's just trust the Holy Spirit to reveal that deception to them as he did to ViaCrucis (awesome testimony btw).What does that mean? Why did you post that?
There is nothing wrong with feelings and emotions, but obviously TRUTH isn't grounded on them. I didn't see any poster saying goosebumps was an absolute sign of His presence -- goodness, and if they did, let's just trust the Holy Spirit to reveal that deception to them as he did to ViaCrucis (awesome testimony btw).
What do you base His presence on?I never said that there was anything wrongs with emotion. I did see people absolutely state that the Holy Spirt was present because they had tingly feelings.
I've been to churches like that. They insisted you have to speak in tongue. I received the gift of tongue in a different church and I didn't even ask for it. I'm glad you found a more balanced church, so did I.I accepted Christ as my savior at an AoG church in the '80's where they insisted that if you didn't speak in tongues you were not truly saved. Every Sunday, other new Christians and I would go to the altar to pray and be prayed for to receive the gift, as we were being instructed to "just start moving your mouth, it'll come." Every Sunday I would be approached by several members of the congregation afterwords wanting to know if I had spoken in tongues yet. After being constantly hounded about it I finally just said yes to get them to stop, even though I was pretty sure it was still just me moving my mouth and not God.
The atmosphere became more circus-like as time went on. People were being pushed down, convulsing, cackling, wailing, running around the room and scaring me half to death. There were ventriloquists with triple neck guitars (seriously), but before I left that church, I had become convinced that I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit by saying I had spoken in tongues when I wasn't sure. I was paralyzed by that fear for years. I no longer believe that, but it was very damaging, almost ending my walk with God. Now, I am involved in another church that is also AoG, but not called by that name. It is not at all pentecostal, or a circus. God is present in a real way here where He is genuinely worshipped both in spirit and IN TRUTH.
Or, social club.Wow!
Your assumption is that none of us have experienced these things. I have experienced these things. From the age of eight until the age of eighteen our family church was a Pentecostal one (International Church of the Foursquare Gospel to be precise).
At the age of twelve a guest evangelist came to our church one night focusing primarily on reaching out to the younger people, so my parents brought me and that night I came forward to receive "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I had seen at on other occasions where people had been "slain in the Spirit" and so I went up, I saw others fall down, when the evangelist placed his hand on my head I also went down. A warm sensation flooded my body and, in the midst of others uttering glossolalia I began repeating certain syllables over and over again.
It was quite the remarkable experience, and afterward I became much more passionate at church. Where before I hated going to church and preferred to sit in the pew and doodle, I became more actively engaged.
Of course this was also during the onset of puberty, and facing the struggles of puberty I also came to try and rely on the rush of endorphin during worship to help satisfy my need to feel like I was accepted by God. Because the rest of the week my mind was rushing everywhere about sex and girls--you know, because I was a twelve year old boy. I had moments where I "knew I was saved" (a struggle I had dealt with since I was a small child, but that's part of my longer story), and then moments where I was convinced I wasn't saved, and even that perhaps I was unable to truly be saved. Why? Because I should have been experiencing the joy of the Lord, I should have been bearing fruit, I should have been getting certain sins under control if I was truly saved and truly had the Holy Spirit I should see some evidence of it in my life. It was a yo-yo effect, between spiritual highs and spiritual lows; and as an adolescent I simply didn't have the ability to deal with that kind of stress.
It's very possible that I suffered from what is called scrupulosity. But that's only hazarding a guess.
At the age of sixteen I joined my church's youth group on a mission to San Francisco. The first week of the mission was spent at a YWAM training camp. I had a powerful and very profound experience in that week, one that I kept with me for the rest of the duration of the trip, and kept with me in the months following.
I was very passionate about my faith, very zealous. I would spend hours in my room reading Scripture and listening to praise and worship music, pouring my heart out to God, laying prostrate in tears. I could easily work myself into a passionate frenzy of emotion in my room just as I could at my youth group and Sunday morning.
And then there would be weeks where I didn't experience anything. And that terrified me, I was convinced in those moments that I had offended God, and so He deprived His presence from me. So I worked very hard to try and avoid the sins I believed were most heinous and resulting in my being disciplined. But inevitably, no matter how hard I tried, I'd fail--of course I did, of course I would. And those old dreaded thoughts continued--I was unholy, I wasn't good enough for God, I didn't really mean it when I gave my life to Him I just thought I did. All I wanted was to feel like God loved me, to feel accepted by Him. I wasn't popular in school, I never was, but at least God would accept me; so I needed to feel accepted and loved. I never truly felt like I reached that place of being accepted by God, but I knew deep down that if I just kept trying, then I would grow and mature and become a better Christian, one that really loved the Lord and one that truly led a holy life. I knew I couldn't become sinless, but I was supposed to sin less right? So why wasn't I? Why was I sinning the same week after week?
That continued all the way through high school and into my earliest years as a legal adult and into my early twenties.
I know those experiences, I've had them. I've felt them. They are incredibly strong, and incredibly profound feeling.
That's also how I know how destructive depending on them is.
-CryptoLutheran
When we confess Jesus as Lord, our hearts are filled with the Spirit, because only out of ABUNDANCE of heart the mouth speaks. Why Spirit? Because no one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Spirit. The difference between an unsaved confessor (demons fall uder this category too, since they too can believe and tremble) and a saved confessor is that the saved confessor has a clear conscience, while the unsaved doesn't (or he/she has a "seared" conscience and can no longer feel the guilt/convictions that are still present). He/she is saved because bad conscience ruins faith (1 Timothy 1:19) but their conscience is clear. They too have faith in Jesus as Lord, which they make alive by means of periodically confessing Jesus as Lord in prayer, or talking about Him as about the Word that became flesh. Speaking is an "act", and it is "acts" that make our faith "alive" (James 2:17). And the work of keeping conscience always clear (it is also a work), helps them to keep their faith alive.What does it mean when someone says that he belongs to a, "Spirit-filled" church? Is he claiming that other churches or Christians are not "filled" with God's Spirit? Is it all about falling on the ground and "holy laughter"?
Don't all of God's elect have His Spirit indwelling?
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