70th Week - It Is Still Pending

[jgr]

Where do you think the 144,000 come from? -- Jesus' time?
DaDad

Are there only 144,000 Jews alive today?

 

[DaDad]

Are there only 144,000 Jews alive today?

... at LEAST. Why, do you want to judge them also?

Perhaps if you had a mirror, you could start there ...

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

... at LEAST. Why, do you want to judge them also?

Perhaps if you had a mirror, you could start there ...

Thanks,
DaDad

That's right. There are millions. What about all those who fall outside of the 144,000? Do they, or do they not, confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

 

[DaDad]

That's right. There are millions. What about all those who fall outside of the 144,000? Do they, or do they not, confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

Scripture says to judge within the church, not those outside. But GOD judges ALL, and THAT's apparently where YOU step in. -- Yep, you'll be busy.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

Scripture says to judge within the church, not those outside. But GOD judges ALL, and THAT's apparently where YOU step in. -- Yep, you'll be busy.
Thanks,
DaDad

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Scripture does not limit our judgment to only the Church.

What about all those Jews who fall outside of the 144,000? Do they, or do they not, confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

 

[DaDad]

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Key Word: "things" -- not people.

1 Cor. 2:14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

1 Cor. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.​

So do have a mirror or not, because THAT's where you should start.

Matt. 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

Key Word: "things" -- not people.

1 Cor. 2:14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

1 Cor. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.​

So do have a mirror or not, because THAT's where you should start.

Matt. 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.​

Thanks,
DaDad

1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment begins with us, but doesn't end with us. It can extend beyond us.

But those who do not confess that Jesus is come in the flesh can be found within the Church as well.

What about all those Jews who fall outside of the 144,000? Do they, or do they not, confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

 

[BABerean2]

"Where do you think the 144,000 come from? -- Jesus' time?
DaDad"


Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

 

[DaDad]

What about all those Jews who fall outside of the 144,000? Do they, or do they not, confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

As I've already stated: "I have my thoughts, but you're asking the wrong person."

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[David Kent]

Totally incorrect. The sacrifice will be restored once the world goes into chaos from the pretribulation rapture.




The saints are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. Church is already gone pretrib.
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


The events happen all over the world as shown in Rev 13. The saints are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth as shown in Rev 7 and Rev 14 by the 144000.....first fruits.


There are two groups of people. One group, the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth comes to recognize Jesus as the Messiah after the Church has be raptured pretrib. Another group is the remnant in the nation of Israel that goes through the wrath of God.

1. Church is raptured pretrib
2. The scattered 12 tribes go through the tribulation and are raptured pre wrath.
3. The nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God.

Pre tribulation rapture is not in scripture/. It is a fantasy.

 

[DaDad]

RE-POST:

Non-exhaustive comparison of Septuagint LXX to Masoretic CJB (Complete Jewish Bible): ...

That's not how you compare one to another.

1. You have to find a document which pre-dates the most ancient Masoretic and Septuagint Texts.
   
2. You compare that document to each version and see which most closely matches.
3. You accept the results.

Apologetics Press :: Reason & Revelation
April 1995 - 15[4]:25-30

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity
by Garry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div.

...
THE SCROLLS AND THE MASORETIC TEXT
...
Critical scholars questioned the accuracy of the MT, which formed the basis of our English versions of the Old Testament, since there was such a large chronological gap between it and the autographs. Because of this uncertainty, scholars often “corrected” the text with considerable freedom.
...
A comparison of the MT to this earlier text revealed the remarkable accuracy with which scribes copied the sacred texts. Accordingly, the integrity of the Hebrew Bible was confirmed, which generally has heightened its respect among scholars and drastically reduced textual alteration.
...
CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP, DANIEL, AND THE SCROLLS
...
Daniel was peculiarly safeguarded to the extent that we have at our disposal parts of all chapters of Daniel, except chapters 9 and 12.
...
INTEGRITY OF THE TEXT
...
Further, a comparison of the Septuagint translation (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) with the MT revealed tremendous disparity in length and content between the two texts. Due to these and other considerations, critical scholars assigned little value to the MT rendition of Daniel.

Once again, however, the findings at Qumran have confirmed the integrity of Daniel’s text. Gerhard Hasel listed several strands of evidence from the Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). First, for the most part, the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Daniel are very consistent in content among themselves, containing very few variants. Second, the Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version. Third, the transitions from Hebrew to Aramaic are preserved in the Qumran fragments. Based on such overwhelming data, it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel. In short, Qumran assures us that we can be reasonably confident that the Daniel text on which our English translations are based is one of integrity. Practically speaking, this means that we have at our disposal, through faithful translations of the original, the truth God revealed to Daniel centuries ago.
...​

Hmmmmm, so THAT's how it's done! Whoda thunk?
DaDad

 

[JLB777]

Exactly. You have no precedent for your "seven and sixty-two" convention.

Yet that is what the scripture teach.

Why do you deny it?


“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
Daniel 9:25


JLB

 

[jgr]

As I've already stated: "I have my thoughts, but you're asking the wrong person."

Thanks,
DaDad

You said your thoughts agree with Scripture. How do those thoughts make you the wrong person?

 

[JLB777]

What week comes "after" this week?

.

The 70th doesn’t occur until verse 27.


Verse 26 is still describing the events of Messiah the Prince and the events of
70 AD.


The 70th week begins sometime after the events of 70 AD, the destruction of the city and the Temple.

The 70th week involves Temple activities of sacrifice and offerings, which only serves to prove the 70th week has yet to begin.


JLB

 

[jgr]

RE-POST:

That's not how you compare one to another.

1. You have to find a document which pre-dates the most ancient Masoretic and Septuagint Texts.
   
2. You compare that document to each version and see which most closely matches.
3. You accept the results.

Apologetics Press :: Reason & Revelation
April 1995 - 15[4]:25-30

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity
by Garry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div.

...
THE SCROLLS AND THE MASORETIC TEXT
...
Critical scholars questioned the accuracy of the MT, which formed the basis of our English versions of the Old Testament, since there was such a large chronological gap between it and the autographs. Because of this uncertainty, scholars often “corrected” the text with considerable freedom.
...
A comparison of the MT to this earlier text revealed the remarkable accuracy with which scribes copied the sacred texts. Accordingly, the integrity of the Hebrew Bible was confirmed, which generally has heightened its respect among scholars and drastically reduced textual alteration.
...
CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP, DANIEL, AND THE SCROLLS
...
Daniel was peculiarly safeguarded to the extent that we have at our disposal parts of all chapters of Daniel, except chapters 9 and 12.
...
INTEGRITY OF THE TEXT
...
Further, a comparison of the Septuagint translation (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) with the MT revealed tremendous disparity in length and content between the two texts. Due to these and other considerations, critical scholars assigned little value to the MT rendition of Daniel.

Once again, however, the findings at Qumran have confirmed the integrity of Daniel’s text. Gerhard Hasel listed several strands of evidence from the Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). First, for the most part, the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Daniel are very consistent in content among themselves, containing very few variants. Second, the Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version. Third, the transitions from Hebrew to Aramaic are preserved in the Qumran fragments. Based on such overwhelming data, it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel. In short, Qumran assures us that we can be reasonably confident that the Daniel text on which our English translations are based is one of integrity. Practically speaking, this means that we have at our disposal, through faithful translations of the original, the truth God revealed to Daniel centuries ago.
...​

Hmmmmm, so THAT's how it's done! Whoda thunk?
DaDad

You'll notice that none of the comparisons include Daniel.

 

[jgr]

Where do you think the 144,000 come from? -- Jesus' time?
DaDad

Read it again.

There're lotsa Jews in there.

But they all happen to be of the faithful obedient variety.

 

[DaDad]

Exactly. You have no precedent for your "seven and sixty-two" convention.

Yet that is what the scripture teach. ...

Ummmmm, no it doesn't. GOD doesn't all of a sudden create a new and unique language convention, used one time, and one time ONLY, -- but the translator turned commentator did.

RSV: 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

MSG: 9:25-26 “‘Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat.​

Some get it right, but others twist the words to achieve a "Jesus" agenda, which doesn't work Scripturally or Historically:

Per Montgomery:

The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "
John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”
Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699​

But as my favorite aunt used to say: "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

DaDad

 

[jgr]

Some get it right, but others twist the words to achieve a "Jesus" agenda, which doesn't work Scripturally or Historically:

Don't like a "Jesus" agenda?

Prefer an "anti-Jesus" agenda?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Pre tribulation rapture is not in scripture/. It is a fantasy.

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Some will escape the hour of testing. Some will not.

 

[BABerean2]

The 70th doesn’t occur until verse 27.


Verse 26 is still describing the events of Messiah the Prince and the events of
70 AD.


The 70th week begins sometime after the events of 70 AD, the destruction of the city and the Temple.

The 70th week involves Temple activities of sacrifice and offerings, which only serves to prove the 70th week has yet to begin.


JLB

Are we to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant already promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant? (See Hebrews 12:22-24.)

It is the same covenant found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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