70th Week - It Is Still Pending

DavidPT said:

I'm on the same page with you on a lot of this. You have the right idea, but you being of the Preterist camp, and me not, what you might apply to only past history, I might apply some of these things to both past history and the future as well.

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There's no doubt that antichrists will be present within the Church until Christ returns.

jgr said:

Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke's parallel account to Matthew 24 foretells Christ's prediction of the days of vengeance, which were fulfilled in AD 70.

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Would that include Dan 12 and Revelation?

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up.
There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. And at that time your people escape—everyone whose name is found written in the book—.

Luke 21:
22 For these are the days of vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge<1556> our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress/necessity<318> upon the land and wrath<3709> in this people.

The exact form of the greek word #3709 used in Luke 21:23 is used in only 1 verse of Revelation:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath<3709> is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Davy said:

The Dan.9:26 verse about the one who would destroy the city and sanctuary (2nd temple) was about Titus and the Roman army in 70 A.D.

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Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The prince to come in verse 26 is the same person who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Whoever one takes this prince to be meaning, this same person has to be meant in verse 27 also. Let's see if Titus might fit both verses.

and the people of Titus that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And Titus shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week Titus shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations Titus shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Does Titus fit both verses? I would say no. This part right off the bat debunks it's meaning Titus---And Titus shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. It doesn't fit.

But if we make the prince to come to be meaning the AC though----


and the people of the AC that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And the AC shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the AC shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations AC shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Plus there is also some who interpret the prince to come to be meaning Christ.

and the people of Christ that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations Christ shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Except Christ never fulfilled this part in the latter half of the 70th week----and for the overspreading of abominations Christ shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Between these 3 views, the view that makes the most sense to me is the middle view, the one involving the AC.

Davy said:

Like I said, there is no way to transfer the Messiah in verse 26 to the ruler that destroys the city and sanctuary. One would have to remove Titus and the Roman army from history for that to be, which is another way of how lucicrous such an idea is of trying to make it mean Jesus being Who did that destruction in 70 A.D. To me, it could only be those who hate our Lord Jesus that would come up with that kind of idea:

Dan 9:25-27
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

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The people of the prince included both Titus and his army. Both were agents of Messiah the prince.

Messiah is both Savior and Judge.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Would that include Dan 12 and Revelation?

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up.
There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. And at that time your people escape—everyone whose name is found written in the book—.

Luke 21:
22 For these are the days of vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge<1556> our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress/necessity<318> upon the land and wrath<3709> in this people.

The exact form of the greek word #3709 used in Luke 21:23 is used in only 1 verse of Revelation:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath<3709> is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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Of course it includes Daniel 12:1, therefore proving the literal end of the age is what is in mind here.

jgr said:

The people of the prince included both Titus and his army. Both were agents of Messiah the prince.

Messiah is both Savior and Judge.

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There are not two princes in Daniel 9:26b though. There is only one prince. The text does not say----and the people and their prince of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Davy said:

No, Paul was NOT using the "temple of God" phrase as a spiritual metaphor.

Paul was REPEATING a warning of a future event to occur in Jerusalem which our Lord Jesus warned about:

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The context of that "false Christs" is actually singular. It is the Greek word pseudochristos, and Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined it as 'a spurious Messiah'. It means a fake Jesus, and that's the context of the 23 and 26 verses specifically.

Back just a few verses, Jesus had warned of this "abomination of desolation" event, an idol being setup in false worship per Daniel 11.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV


That coming pseudo-Christ is who Paul was pointing to sitting in the "temple of God", in Jerusalem, the same one of Matthew 24 that will work those 'great signs and wonders' to deceive with:

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV


Even in Revelation 13 we were shown about this coming false one again, working those signs and wonders to deceive the world at the end:

Rev 13:13-14
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

It won't be a pope that will do all that. It will be one like the Book of Daniel revealed, one who comes to power as king in Jerusalem at the very end of this present world, just prior to Christ's return.

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There is no terminology, e.g. abomination of desolation, in common between 2 Thess. 2 and Matthew 24. The two passages are unrelated.

There is no mention of Jerusalem in 2 Thess. 2.

The temple in 2 Thess. 2 is a "naos" spiritual temple, consistent with Paul's use of the term throughout his epistles.

2 Thess. 2 ultimately found fulfillment in the apostasy of the Church under the papacy, which usurped spiritual authority within the spiritual temple of the Church.

DavidPT said:

There are not two princes in Daniel 9:26b though. There is only one prince. The text does not say----and the people and their prince of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

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Correct, which is consistent with the appearance of only one prince, Messiah, in the whole passage.

Christian Gedge said:

In Leviticus 25:1-7. Daniels 'weeks' were part of the Hebrew calendar (a calendar based on 'sevens') and, as we all know, calendars do not have gaps.

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You do realize you are contradicting what you are claiming, right?

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---apparently you have this part being fulfilled right after the 69th week, thus no gaps.

While at the same time---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---apparently you have this part being fulfilled many years later, thus a gap in the 70th week itself. Why are you then arguing for no gaps in the 70 weeks?

jgr said: ↑
Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke's parallel account to Matthew 24 foretells Christ's prediction of the days of vengeance, which were fulfilled in AD 70.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Would that include Dan 12 and Revelation?
Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up.
There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. And at that time your people escape—everyone whose name is found written in the book—.

Click to expand...

DavidPT said:

Of course it includes Daniel 12:1, therefore proving the literal end of the age is what is in mind here.

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Yep, as in 70ad........
Not the end of the WORLD as these bible version show:

Matthew 24:3
King James Bible
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
English Revised Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
American Standard Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what'shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The correct renderung from the greek texts:

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came to Him according to own saying "be telling us!
when? shall these be
and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>?"

4930. sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.

Davy said:

The accuracy is in the KJV too, because it's impossible to get around the prophecies involving the years given in the prophecy:

1st Period: seven sevens = 49 years. From the command to restore to the dedication. 454 B.C. to 404 B.C.

2nd Period: 62 weeks = 434 years. From the dedication (404 B.C.) to the time when Jesus was 'cut off' (29 A.D.). The two periods = 69 weeks total, or 484 years. From 454 B.C. plus 484 years = 29 A.D., the date of the cross. That means the 69th week ENDED with the cross.

3rd Period: one week, 70th. 7 years. For the end of this world.

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When you think about it though, 29 AD couldn't have been the time of His death. What I liked about your post though, was the last sentence.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Yep, as in 70ad........
Not the end of the WORLD as these bible version show:

Matthew 24:3
King James Bible
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
English Revised Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
American Standard Version
And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what'shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The correct renderung from the greek texts:

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came to Him according to own saying "be telling us!
when? shall these be
and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>?"

4930. sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.

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Yet Daniel 12:1 involves the end of the world, the GT that precede the DOTL and the 2nd coming.

Davy said:

The accuracy is in the KJV too, because it's impossible to get around the prophecies involving the years given in the prophecy:

1st Period: seven sevens = 49 years. From the command to restore to the dedication. 454 B.C. to 404 B.C.

2nd Period: 62 weeks = 434 years. From the dedication (404 B.C.) to the time when Jesus was 'cut off' (29 A.D.). The two periods = 69 weeks total, or 484 years. From 454 B.C. plus 484 years = 29 A.D., the date of the cross. That means the 69th week ENDED with the cross.

3rd Period: one week, 70th. 7 years. For the end of this world.

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From Wikipedia:

"Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD, with Rainer Riesner stating that "the fourteenth of Nisan (7 April) of the year A.D. 30 is, apparently in the opinion of the majority of contemporary scholars as well, far and away the most likely date of the crucifixion of Jesus."

AD 30 is in the 70th week.

Davy said:

God in Isaiah uses "the Assyrian" as a TYPE for Satan. See Isaiah 30-31-33. Same with the prince and king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28, and with the Assyrian, and Pharaoh in Ezekiel 31. Then Babylon as a TYPE is used in Revelation, even with events in the Book of Daniel being types for the end.

The idea about the prince that destroys the city and sanctuary, which historically was Titus, is about the enemy. Titus represents the idea of an antichrist, but not the final Antichrist for the end of this world. 2018 minus 70 A.D., how many years has that been? We're still waiting for a final Antichrist to come. And Titus did not fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecies involving the "vile person" of Dan.11, which is what the Dan.9:27 verse is actually about.

So it's a mistake to simply focus on one area of the Scriptures while omitting many other Scriptures which point us directly to a final Antichrist to come at the very end of this world. All the Scriptures must be weighed together. And those most adamant about Jesus being the destroyer prince of Dan.9:26 don't like to include Dan.11 about the "vile person" in their interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy.

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I grasp your reasoning here. But I'm uncertain that this same reasoning might fit Daniel 9:26b. So maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, and it's that I'm not entirely certain either way. Currently I favor more the latter than the former, yet I don't entirely discount the former.

IMO, Daniel 9:26b is meaning during the 70th week. But for some reason folks don't want to at least acknowledge that possibility. The same way Daniel 9:26a involves the first 69 weeks, Daniel 9:26b involves the remaining week, the 70th week. IOW Daniel 9:26a is being expanded on per verse 25, and Daniel 9:26b is being expanded on per verse 27.

jgr said:

From Wikipedia:

"Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD, with Rainer Riesner stating that "the fourteenth of Nisan (7 April) of the year A.D. 30 is, apparently in the opinion of the majority of contemporary scholars as well, far and away the most likely date of the crucifixion of Jesus."

AD 30 is in the 70th week.

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Maybe Davy used the wrong year as a starting point, and that if he adjusted that by a year, what then? Wouldn't that make his proposal fit the end of the 69th week if 30 AD, according to Scholars, can fit the time of Jesus' crucifixion?

This is from Clarence Larkin (Gap Heavyweight) on how it all adds up.

“While there was no break between the “Seven Weeks” and the “Threescore and Two Weeks,” there is a break between the “Sixty ninth” and “Seventieth Week,” in which several things were to happen.First we read that “Messiah Was to Be Cut Off, But Not for Himself.” This refers to Christ’s rejection and crucifixion. He died for others. Then we read that the people of the “Prince That Shall Come” shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary. Note that it does not say that the “Prince” will destroy the City and Sanctuary, but the People of the Prince. The people who destroyed the City of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70 were the Romans, therefore the “Prince (Antichrist) must be a Roman Citizen.This does not mean that he cannot be a Syrian Jew, for Syria will then be a part of the revived Roman Empire, and Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen as well as a Jew. We are then told that the desolation of the land of Palestine shall continue until the “End of the War” (probably Armageddon). As this “desolation” still continues we see that the “GAP” between the “Sixty ninth” and “Seventieth Week” takes in the whole of this PRESENT DISPENSATION.” Dispensational Truth, p. 71 Clarence Larkin.