70 Weeks of Daniel

[DavidPT]

Concerning the topic of this thread, once again, the following is one of my arguments in favor of the 70 weeks not being entirely finished yet. I think it's a good argument myself, regardless that others might disagree.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I want to mainly focus on this part---and to bring in everlasting righteousness


I would think everlasting righteousness can't be trumped. I would also think that everlasting means no end. This to me means that this can only fit in an age that has no end, and not an age that has an end instead. Everlasting righteousness is going to be a condition one is living in at the time in this world. No one is presently living in a world like that where everlasting righteousness is a living condition seen throughout the entire planet. Especially when we have crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, crooked cops, crooked politicians, crooked preachers, so on and so on.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Assuming the 70 weeks are already finished, this would indicate that at the time Peter spoke these words, everlasting righteousness would have already been brought in. Apparently, from reading 2 Peter 3:13 though, Peter never realized that the 70 weeks were entirely finished and that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, otherwise he would not still be looking for a future place and time wherein dwelleth righteousness, it would already be here. Should we assume that he did know that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, but that the righteousness he is speaking of is far better than the everlasting righteousness already brought in, thus it trumps everlasting righteousness?

 

[Douggg]

I would think everlasting righteousness can't be trumpe

David, what I think the other side will argue is that the messiah cutoff provided the means for persons to be saved, and have everlasting life; therefore everlasting righteousness brought in. I agree with you that everlasting righteousness has not been brought in (and Jerusalem and the Jews as a whole have not embraced the gospel of salvation), but that is how I think they will counter your rationale.

What the other side cannot counter is what vision is Gabriel referring to when he told Daniel "consider the vision". Daniel simply had no other vision which he saw Gabriel in other than the one regarding the little horn, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, committing the transgression of desolation, and attempting to make war on Jesus, encompassing 2300 days - all to be at the time of the end.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Before you can even go to those arguments you are making - you first must deal with what vision is in the text of Daniel 9:21 and 9:23.

The burden of proof is with you - to show Daniel having seen Gabriel in any vision in any verses in Daniel 9 prior to verse 21... to justify your disregarding the time of the end vision of the little horn that Gabriel had appeared to Daniel in.

_________________________________________

When Daniel had finished receiving the time of the end vision of the little horn, he was left astonished by it, and still seeking understanding.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

When Gabriel appeared to Daniel later, in Daniel 9:23, he says he came to Daniel to give him understanding in v22, and consider the vision in v23....

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

__________________________________

Daniel was not having a vision at the start of Daniel 9, like at the start of Daniel 8.

Daniel 9 starts with Daniel having contemplated the word of God given to Jeremiah, and decided to pray about it. Daniel was not expecting Gabriel to appear, and was not expecting Gabriel to enlighten him more about the vision he had previously saw Gabriel in.

If you claim another vision that has in it Gabriel appearing to Daniel - from the prior verses to v21 of Daniel 9, i.e v1-20, the burden of proof is with you.

Otherwise, the stopping of the daily sacrifice vision by the little horn, and the 2300 days takes place, i.e. sealed up, is in the 70 weeks, at the time of the end.

I do not have a clue what you are trying to say. You are all over the place. You seem to be imposing Pretrib conclusions where they do not belong. Again, no mention of this supposed Pretrib rapture, no mention of some future 7-years trib, and no mention of a future 3rd coming. That is because it is extra-biblical. It does not exist in the Book. If it was there you (or some Pretribber) would have presented it before now. Daniel 8 supports a historic fulfilment, just like Daniel 9.

The last days came in with Christ. It was Christ’s earthly ministry that ushered in the last days, a period that will terminated in the glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

Christ’s impeccable life, His vicarious death and glorious resurrection perfectly fulfilled the demands of this notable prophecy. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Peter clearly tells us that Joel 2 refers to Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21. Moreover, Acts 2 also reveals that the last days began with the move of the Holy Spirit in the early church. Peter says, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

I John 2:18 says, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

 

[Douggg]

I do not have a clue what you are trying to say. You are all over the place. You seem to be imposing Pretrib conclusions where they do not belong. Again, no mention of this supposed Pretrib rapture, no mention of some future 7-years trib, and no mention of a future 3rd coming. That is because it is extra-biblical. It does not exist in the Book. If it was there you (or some Pretribber) would have presented it before now. Daniel 8 supports a historic fulfilment, just like Daniel 9.

The last days came in with Christ. It was Christ’s earthly ministry that ushered in the last days, a period that will terminated in the glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

Christ’s impeccable life, His vicarious death and glorious resurrection perfectly fulfilled the demands of this notable prophecy. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Peter clearly tells us that Joel 2 refers to Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21. Moreover, Acts 2 also reveals that the last days began with the move of the Holy Spirit in the early church. Peter says, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

I John 2:18 says, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

I will simplify it further for you -

What vision is being referred to v21, v23 and v24?

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Concerning the topic of this thread, once again, the following is one of my arguments in favor of the 70 weeks not being entirely finished yet. I think it's a good argument myself, regardless that others might disagree.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I want to mainly focus on this part---and to bring in everlasting righteousness


I would think everlasting righteousness can't be trumped. I would also think that everlasting means no end. This to me means that this can only fit in an age that has no end, and not an age that has an end instead. Everlasting righteousness is going to be a condition one is living in at the time in this world. No one is presently living in a world like that where everlasting righteousness is a living condition seen throughout the entire planet. Especially when we have crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, crooked cops, crooked politicians, crooked preachers, so on and so on.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Assuming the 70 weeks are already finished, this would indicate that at the time Peter spoke these words, everlasting righteousness would have already been brought in. Apparently, from reading 2 Peter 3:13 though, Peter never realized that the 70 weeks were entirely finished and that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, otherwise he would not still be looking for a future place and time wherein dwelleth righteousness, it would already be here. Should we assume that he did know that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, but that the righteousness he is speaking of is far better than the everlasting righteousness already brought in, thus it trumps everlasting righteousness?

I believe the return of Christ is the ultimate final glorious fulfillment of it, but from what I see in Scripture His life, death and resurrection actually introduced it. Similarly, He defeated sin, but the second coming will see the consummation of that. But it has already been introduced/secured.

Psalms 119:137-138, 142 outlines, “Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments. Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful … Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.”

Christ is the ultimate personification and manifestation of everlasting righteousness. When he came to this earth, He brought “everlasting righteousness” to this sin-cursed world. He was the light in the midst of darkness. Those sinners who embrace Him experience “everlasting righteousness” and become a conduit for His Spirit to reveal Christ (the light of the world) through.

Christ has expressly fulfilled every demand that the Father made of Him in His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. A question that should be considered is: Was that righteousness secured through Christ’s death “everlasting” as predicted or temporal?

2 Corinthians 9:9 addresses our query, saying, “As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

The righteousness that flowed from the Cross is expressly “remaineth for ever.” It is eternal in nature and it is effectual in the lives of the redeemed of God. This reading clearly and concisely confirms, as predicted in Daniel 9 of His first Advent, that the righteousness that Christ secured was assuredly “everlasting righteousness,” not temporal as some would try and argue. This is in total keeping with the eternal character of the kingdom He ushered in and the spiritual life that the believer experiences when they encounter Christ. We can therefore deduce, the life within the believer is as eternal as God is.

Psalm 92:15: “The Lord is upright . . . there is no unrighteousness in Him.”

1 John 2:1: “if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

The Lord is righteous and every act He does or word He speaks epitomises righteousness. In short, He is the absolute personification of righteousness. Righteousness reigns were He reigns and exercises authority. Moreover, the righteousness that we speak of that pertains to God is constantly represented as everlasting. There is no starting point to it and equally there is no end. Where God lives, righteousness exists. The two are inseparable. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2). Therefore, His righteousness is everlasting. At the incarnation, Christ chose to manifest God’s eternal righteousness to sinful through His earthly ministry and the eternal life that He offered men.

In Matthew 6:33 Christ identified the kingdom with Himself, when He said, “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Here the kingdom and Christ are viewed as one. Being part of the kingdom of God is being part of Christ. Being part of Christ means taking on His righteousness.

The great redemption chapter of Isaiah 53 had prophesied of Christ and the great eternal consequence that would emanate from Calvary for God’s elect: "my righteous servant shall make many righteous." How can futurists remotely deny that this great transaction was fulfilled 2,000 years ago at Calvary? Christ rendered many righteous through the redemptive work of the Cross. After all, He is “the Lord our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:6).

2 Corinthians 5:21 provides the answer, saying, “for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

At Calvary our sin was imputed or transferred to Christ; upon conversion His righteousness was imputed or transferred to us! Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own. Matthew Henry (that great Puritan) puts it beautifully, “Christ, who knew no sin of his own, was made sin for us, so we, who have no righteousness of our own, are made the righteousness of God in him. Our reconciliation to God is only through Jesus Christ, and for the sake of his merit: on him therefore we must rely, and make mention of his righteousness and his only.”

As man’s representative he took upon himself the form of man, living the life that we could never live. He kept and fulfilled the law perfectly, by living a life of perfect obedience. As our guarantor he voluntarily and unconditionally bore the necessary punishment of the penitent sinner. Christ paid our penalty in full by his substitutionary atoning death, this relieving us of our guilt, and purchasing our complete redemption.

When Christ approached John (at the beginning of the final week of Daniel) for him to baptise Him, John immediately refused, to which the Master declared, “Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

Likewise, Hebrews 1:8-9 says, “unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” Christ ushered that eternal kingdom in at the beginning of the 70th week. Jesus testified, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

The legal accomplishment of the Cross and the righteousness that was imputed to the penitent sinner was relative equally to the Old and New Testament saints. He was made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). The shedding of the blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption. Christ the sinless Lamb of God was made sin on the sinner’s behalf. 1 John 2:29 declares, “Everyone that doeth righteousness is born of him”

The “everlasting righteousness” that is found in Christ has now been graciously imputed to His elect through mystical union in salvation. Romans 4:20-24 declares, talking about Abraham the father of the faith, “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.”

The righteousness within us, which we have seen is not our own, is eternal in its makeup. It was accounted to us through the Cross. This righteousness which comes from God through Christ is appropriated by grace through faith. Romans 3:22 declares, “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.” The righteousness the believer has is not his own it is imputed (or put into us) of the Lord. Christ is our righteousness. Romans 5:21 says, “as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” This “imputed” righteousness is also expressly of an “eternal” nature.

David Wilkerson states in a written sermon called Perfect Righteousness, “The only righteousness that is acceptable in God's eyes is the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ our Lord. And it is a righteousness that can be had only by faith!”

He continues, “This imputation comes by faith alone. We can't work for it or merit it in any way. Rather, because of our faith in Jesus and His redeeming work, the Lord credits the righteousness of Christ to us -- and we are reckoned as perfect in Him. That's right -- you and I are credited with the same righteousness that Jesus obtained here on this earth. By confessing our sins and having faith in Him, we stand before God with an imputed righteousness. And it is a perfect righteousness that is of faith and not of works.”

I John 3:7 says, “let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” It was Calvary however that fully realised the imputation of eternal righteousness into the child of God. 1 Peter 2:24 says, “who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

Calvary was the event that ensured that God’s elect would enter into the unending rest of “everlasting righteousness.” We therefore stand boldly and solely by faith in the righteousness of Christ and His shed blood, in total and absolute spiritual liberty.

Q. Was not this righteousness that he brought in everlasting?

A. Romans 5:17-21 says, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Calvary was the specific event that brought “in everlasting righteousness” for mankind. Our sin was imputed to Christ; His righteousness was imputed to us! Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own, whether Old or New Testament saints. The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is completely removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave. Romans 3:24-25 declares of His elect, “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.”

Calvary secured the imputation of that righteousness. This eternal or everlasting righteousness is contrasted to the old sacrifices under the law, which were only of a temporary nature. But Christ, once for all time, offered himself thus providing, as the prophecy of Daniel had said, "everlasting righteousness." Galatians 2:21 affirms, “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Christ’s death 2,000 years ago is again presented as the occasion that realised the eternal imputation of God’s elect with heaven’s righteousness. There is therefore absolutely no basis for the futurist teaching that none of these things have yet been fulfilled. To teach such is highly unscriptural and totally undermines the great redemptive work that Christ wrought at Calvary.

Paul the Apostle testified in Philippians 3:9, “not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.”

We are not justified by our “own righteousness” or our strict adherence to “the works of the law” (because no can truly attain to that), we are justified by walking “by faith” in “the righteousness of God” which was made possible by the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. A righteousness that we could never attain has been placed within us through the life and work of Christ. The righteousness that the believer now owns is therefore not his own it is imputed (or put into him) of Christ.

The righteousness that Christ ushered in was undoubtedly eternal or everlasting. It is perpetually effectual, and will last forever.

There is no other future event that can fulfil this wonderful prophecy but the cross. The one alone that was qualified to fulfil this did it perfectly and finally.

Romans 10:3-4 says of the religious who trust in their own innate righteousness: "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

He brought in everlasting righteousness, we seek none other.

 

[DavidPT]

David, what I think the other side will argue is that the messiah cutoff provided the means for persons to be saved, and have everlasting life; therefore everlasting righteousness brought in. I agree with you that everlasting righteousness has not been brought in (and Jerusalem and the Jews as whole have not embraced the gospel of salvation), but that is how I think they will counter your rationale.

What the other side cannot counter is what vision is Gabriel referring to when he told Daniel "consider the vision". Daniel simply had no other vision which he saw Gabriel in other than the one regarding the little horn, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, committing the transgression of desolation, and attempting to make war on Jesus, encompassing 2300 days - all to be at the time of the end.

Speaking of visions, from what I can tell, every other place in the book of Daniel when it is translated 'vision', it always pertains to as if looking in a crystal ball and observing the future. We don't see anything like that happening in Daniel 9, yet that chapter involves a vision. What vision, that's what one should be asking themselves. And when there are those like you and I, that's exactly what we ask our self. I might not be entirely on the same page with you regarding your proposed timeline for some of these events, but I am on the same page with you that the vision has to be concerning some of Daniel 8 for one.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I will simplify it further for you -

What vision is being referred to v21, v23 and v24?

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It seems like you’re trying to stitch these things together in an attempt to justify Dispy doctrine. The reality is: we have 3 different visions in view in Daniel 9:21-24. (1) We have “the vision at the beginning” obviously speaking about Daniel 8:16. (2) We have the new vision in Daniel 9:24-27. And (3) we have the fulfilment of the Messianic vision fulfilled during the earthly ministry of Christ.

Now, will you address my last post?

 

[Douggg]

It seems like you’re trying to stitch these things together in an attempt to justify Dispy doctrine. The reality is: we have 3 different visions in view in Daniel 9:21-24. (1) We have “the vision at the beginning” obviously speaking about Daniel 8:16. (2) We have the new vision in Daniel 9:24-27. And (3) we have the fulfilment of the Messianic vision fulfilled during the earthly ministry of Christ.

Now, will you address my last post?

Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9:24-27. He was told about the 70wks by Gabriel who was physically there with Daniel, not in a vision.

regarding your last post - time of the end in the book of Daniel is described in Daniel 12:4. And that description does not match historical conditions - but conditions in our present day.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

and the understanding of what Daniel had been told is closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (referring back to the 1290 days and 1335 days of v11,v12)

Has Daniel's body been resurrected to be among his fellow Jews? No, it has not so the end of the days of the events associated with the abomination of desolation have not happened yet.




In Revelation 6, Jesus broke the seals that revealed the events that are to happen in the time of the end.

In Revelation 10, during that time, the seven year 70th week, in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, the mystery of God which He had revealed to the prophets will be finished.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 24-27. He was told about the 70wks by Gabriel who was physically there with Daniel, not in a vision.

regarding your last post - time of the end in the book of Daniel is described in Daniel 12:4. And that description does not match historical conditions - but conditions in our present day.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

and the understanding of what Daniel had been told is closed up and sealed till the time of the end. In Revelation 6 broke the seals that revealed the events that are to happen in the time of the end.

In Revelation 10, during that time, the seven year 70th week, in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, the mystery of God which he had revealed to the prophets will be finished.

Revelaton 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Not so. You are building upon sand. You make a false claim and then build your doctrine upon that. That is how false teaching arises. What is more, you conveniently avoid every post, argument and Scripture that negates your theories and charts. I believe you have to sustain your position!

 

[Douggg]

Not so. You are building upon sand. You make a false claim and then build your doctrine upon that. That is how false teaching arises. What is more, you conveniently avoid every post, argument and Scripture that negates your theories and charts. I believe you have to sustain your position!

Another entire chapter that makes my position bulletproof is Ezekiel 39, which has not happened yet provable by there being no mass grave site in Israel of Gog's army. And the 7 years are in that set of verses as well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Another entire chapter that makes my position bulletproof is Ezekiel 39, which has not happened yet provable by there being no mass grave site in Israel of Gog's army. And the 7 years are in that set of verses as well.

It is another chapter that exposes the error of your doctrine. I will try again to get any biblical evidence from you. So far you have brought nothing to the table. That is why this doctrine is in free-fall today.

Where is a rapture of the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 trib in Ezekiel 39?
Where is your 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?

Bible-believing Christians should reject your Fallible Timeline Framework.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The reference to Daniel's first encounter of Gabriel in the vision is in Daniel 9.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel had no vision in Daniel 9. The vision Daniel had seen Gabriel in was in Daniel 8 about the little horn, him stopping the daily sacrifice, and the 2300 days, time of the end.

I know we've talked about this before, but I can't help but to point this out again. Though the word "vision" is used in Daniel 9:23 when Gabriel said "consider the vision", the word does not have to refer to a vision like the one Daniel had seen before. The Hebrew word can also refer to an insight or prophecy rather than to a vision like Daniel previously saw. So, the "vision" or insight/prophecy that Gabriel was referring to in Daniel 9:23 was the insight/prophecy that he proceeded to give Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27.

The vision that Daniel previously saw is never the focus in Daniel 9:21. The focus is on the fact that Gabriel was the one who appeared to him at that time to give him another prophecy (which he gave to him in verses 24-27). The fact that Gabriel was the one who had given him a previous vision was just a side note.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Concerning the topic of this thread, once again, the following is one of my arguments in favor of the 70 weeks not being entirely finished yet. I think it's a good argument myself, regardless that others might disagree.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I want to mainly focus on this part---and to bring in everlasting righteousness


I would think everlasting righteousness can't be trumped. I would also think that everlasting means no end. This to me means that this can only fit in an age that has no end, and not an age that has an end instead. Everlasting righteousness is going to be a condition one is living in at the time in this world. No one is presently living in a world like that where everlasting righteousness is a living condition seen throughout the entire planet. Especially when we have crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, crooked cops, crooked politicians, crooked preachers, so on and so on.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Assuming the 70 weeks are already finished, this would indicate that at the time Peter spoke these words, everlasting righteousness would have already been brought in. Apparently, from reading 2 Peter 3:13 though, Peter never realized that the 70 weeks were entirely finished and that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, otherwise he would not still be looking for a future place and time wherein dwelleth righteousness, it would already be here. Should we assume that he did know that everlasting righteousness has already been brought in, but that the righteousness he is speaking of is far better than the everlasting righteousness already brought in, thus it trumps everlasting righteousness?

Bringing in everlasting righteousness had to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ providing the opportunity for people to be saved and have the promise of eternal life.

If bringing in everlasting righteousness refers to 2 Peter 3:13, then that would mean it won't be fulfilled until the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. Do you believe the 70th week ends at the point when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in at which point "there shall be no more death" (Rev 21:4)? I'm pretty sure you don't. So, how does what you're saying about 2 Peter 3:13 line up with your understanding of the end of the 70th week?

 

[Douggg]

It is another chapter that exposes the error of your doctrine. I will try again to get any biblical evidence from you. So far you have brought nothing to the table. That is why this doctrine is in free-fall today.

Where is a rapture of the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 trib in Ezekiel 39?
Where is your 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?

Bible-believing Christians should reject your Fallible Timeline Framework.

There is no chapter in the bible that has every element of the end times in it.

Ezekiel 39 contains the infallible timeline framework for end times events.

 

[Douggg]

I know we've talked about this before, but I can't help but to point this out again. Though the word "vision" is used in Daniel 9:23 when Gabriel said "consider the vision", the word does not have to refer to a vision like the one Daniel had seen before. The Hebrew word can also refer to an insight or prophecy rather than to a vision like Daniel previously saw. So, the "vision" or insight/prophecy that Gabriel was referring to in Daniel 9:23 was the insight/prophecy that he proceeded to give Daniel in Daniel 9:24-27.

Daniel referred to a specific vision - the one he had seen Gabriel in.

There were two things that Gabriel had come to address.

1. the matter of the word of God to Jeremiah concerning the time that the Jews would be in Babylonian captivity, serving the king of Babylon.

2. the vision about the little horn, the stopping of the daily sacrifice, the transgression of desolation, and the 2300 days those events vision would last.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The fact that Gabriel was the one who had given him a previous vision was just a side note.

Gabriel did not give the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8, God did. Gabriel was instructed to make Daniel understand what he saw. Gabriel told Daniel the vision of the little horn and 2300 days was time of the end.

Daniel did not completely understand it and was that way until Gabriel appeared again to Daniel in Daniel 9 and connected the Jews problem with breaking God's laws with it not being over until 70 wks were complete, with the vision of the little horn being part of it.

The Jews, the vast majority, still haven't embrace the gospel of salvation; nor has the 2300 days of the little horn happened it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There is no chapter in the bible that has every element of the end times in it.

Ezekiel 39 contains the infallible timeline framework for end times events.

Exactly! Pretrib is extra-biblical. It was invented by Jesuit Manuel de Lacunza under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew." The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible. It s a Jesuit invention!

 

[Douggg]

Exactly! Pretrib is extra-biblical.

You are going off onto a tangent.

Pre-trib is a rapture timing view, not a complete eschatology system.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are going off onto a tangent.

Pre-trib is a rapture timing view, not a complete eschatology system.

It is a view that cannot be supported by any single Scripture. It has no proof text. It should therefore be rejected by every Bible believing Christian. Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives.

 

[Douggg]

It is a view that cannot be supported by any single Scripture.

The pre-trib rapture view can be supported by scripture, but it can not be concluded because it mandates the rapture "must" take place before the 70th week begins.

That the 70th week has not begun is infallible, because of Ezekiel 39, and because of the 2300 day time of the end vision about the little horn.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The pre-trib rapture view can be supported by scripture, but it can not be concluded because it mandates the rapture "must" take place before the 70th week begins.

That the 70th week has not begun is infallible, because of Ezekiel 39, and because of the 2300 day time of the end vision about the little horn.

How can you say that when there is absolutely no mention of the rapture in Ezekiel 39 and Daniel 9? You must add unto Scripture to sustain your belief.