70 week prophecy questions

[Windmill]

Hi, before I begin, I apologise for not have using bible tags. This was originally an email, so I just posted the verse on and put it in italics. I have copy and pasted it to here for some responses, too.

This revolves around the 70 week prophecy- in Daniel 9, of course. Heres one question:

1) In Daniel 9:26, it says this, right?

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I have bolded the section that confuses me. What is this in reference too? There is someone I'm discussing this with who claims this to be the 70 AD Jewish revolt or something... I can't remember its date. If that is true, how does it fit in with the prophecy? Or does it mean something else? I mean, what on earth does this mean? What happened, that war started etc?

This is crucial, because he cites verse 27,

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

To be reffering to the Anti-christ. He holds the view, that the "Prince" mentioned in actually the Anti-christ. Or, more correctly put, the little horn. So, I'm guessing when it says "the prince" that is in refernece to Jesus. If so how does that fit in with destroying the city? I can see how one might see Jesus destroyed the sanctuary through rendering it useless- but what on earth did he do to the city? I don't understand this.

2) That start of the 70 week prophecy also confuses me! I know adventists tend to believe its Ezra 7. How does this work? I've heard that the letter in Ezra 4 is somehow linked to this decree- but wouldn't it make more sense, in the context of the chapters that follow, that the decree would've been the one stated in Nehemiah 2:1-8

1And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence. 2Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
3And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
4Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
5And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
6And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.
7Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;
8And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

The bits significant have been bolded (even though its likely you know this verse =P)

Now, compare this to Ezra 7, which makes no mention of rebuilding the city,

Ezra 7:11-25

11Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
12Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
14Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to enquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand;
15And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem,
16And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
17That thou mayest buy speedily with this money bullocks, rams, lambs, with their meat offerings and their drink offerings, and offer them upon the altar of the house of your God which is in Jerusalem.
18And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God.
19The vessels also that are given thee for the service of the house of thy God, those deliver thou before the God of Jerusalem.
20And whatsoever more shall be needful for the house of thy God, which thou shalt have occasion to bestow, bestow it out of the king's treasure house.
21And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,
22Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.
23Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
24Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.
25And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

So, one can see theres no mention of rebuilding the temple. I understand that the events in Ezra are not in chronilogical order, but this email said that Ezra 1-4 happen BEFORE Ezra 7, in 538 BC. If so, this would put it well ahead of Ezra 7, at the time of 457 BC. So, therefore, it can't be used in conjunction. We therefore have a issue: Ezra 7 can not be the starting date for the 70 week prophecy (if this is true) as it does not give an order to rebuild the city, which is vital;

Daniel 9:25

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

So if Ezra doesn't specify this, and Ezra 4 cannot be used in conjunction with 7, then why on earth do we peg the start at Ezra 7?

Indeed, we come to a major issue: The decree in Nehemiah can be dated to 31 ADish. This would therefore peg the beginning of the final week marking the death of Jesus. Therefore, that doesn't fit in with the whole middle-of-the-week-getting-crucified idea that we adventists have. I'm confused, and would really appreciate some help on this matter!

 

[tall73]

Howdy

Alrighty, question one I can possibly help you with. Question 2 I am not so sure about as I have some questions too.

As to question 1 Adventist expositors (though you rarely realize it at evangelistic meetings where they only put on the screen the parts that they focus on) see two streams of thought here, alternating. The two streams of thought focus on the two questions in Daniel's prayer--the people and the city.

The red part below deals with the Messiah. It answers the prayer that the people were not rejected, that He would restore them and they would still bring about the Messiah, and sooner than they had anticipated.

The green part deals with the city. It doesn't have so bright a future, as you detected.

The reason they see these alternating is because of the nature of Hebrew verse. Hebrew verse does not rhyme but works on parallels. One verse is related to the next by concepts, not by rhyming sound (which is good because they translate well!). Sometimes there is a bit of overlap as well. These may not be the best examples as they were ones I just pulled this morning from the first few psalms. But you can see them all over the place in psalms and proverbs, etc.

Synonymous--A statement is made, then a similar statement or thought is made in different words.

Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

Psa 6:10 Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

Eclectic-A statement is made, then one is made which give a different thought.

Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

Antithetic-A statement is made, then one that is covering the opposite is given.

Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psa 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Synthetic- A statement is made then another that elaborates and extends the statement.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.
Psa 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.



Check out these links from Protestant, Catholic and Jewish sources for more examples and types, and more analysis. As you can see, parallelism is a generally recognized principle.
http://www.cresourcei.org/parallel.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11473a.htm
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=67&letter=P


Here we see two streams of thought woven in among one another. So it would be most likely eclectic.


Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now the way that Bibles translate this passage is partly shaped by their interpretation of it. For instance, the NIV actually mentions something about the wing of the temple in the last verse, partly because they anticipate Antiochus being the fulfillment. Also the arranging of phrases into one sentance can be the result of connecting them all as one unit because they see one person fulfilling all of them rather than parallelism. So don't stress over the sentance structure above. Just look at the phrases.


As to the city, yes the destruction would be that of AD 70. In this scenario the pince would be distinct from the Anointed One or Messiah, and yet would be the anti-christ (it was Rome that destroyed the temple--you might ask the person you are dialoguing with if Rome is his anti-christ power). Jesus' words regarding the abomination of desolation in His olivette discourse, obviously referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and its working out in fact as those in the city took warning, show that this is the most likely fulfillment.

Others would interpret all of them to be speaking of the same figure, and anointed one here to be simply a king, etc. which were also anointed.

 

[tall73]

Now, as to part two, first I will give the traditional answer, and then I will express some of my own questions. Might as well be open about them, because they are bound to come up in your conversation.

Generally speaking we take the one in Ezra 7 because it is seen as the apex of the process, the culmination of the other three. It is the one that gives jurisdictional authority and restores right to self-government, including collecting of tithes, etc. (in other words gives reign to the levitical leadership). Hence it is restoring, completing the rebuilding process.

The verse usually pointed to is the following:

Ezr 6:14 And the elders of the Jews built and prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. They finished their building by decree of the God of Israel and by decree of Cyrus and Darius and Artaxerxes king of Persia.


So there is some justification for taking it that way, though logically the first decree could make a lot of sense as well.


However, we also don't know the date for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, or the stoning of Stephen, and the death of Jesus is hotly debated as well. We only reconstruct what we think it is based on various passover festivals.

Only the baptism date is quite firmly fixed.

The stoning of Stephen is recorded only in Acts and the events surrounding it are not recorded in other sources either. The only event we can really attach even a loose date to is the death of Herod Agrippa in around 44 A.D. which doesn't at all help to date Stephen's stoning exactly, but does provide an outward limit.

 

[Windmill]

Thank you very much for these answers- they've helped me a lot right now all I can think of is two questions-

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Is the prince decribed here Rome?

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who is the "he" mentioned here?

 

[tall73]

Thank you very much for these answers- they've helped me a lot right now all I can think of is two questions-

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Is the prince decribed here Rome?

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who is the "he" mentioned here?

the he would be the prince mentioned above, and would likely be associated with the antichrist, or if you go with a more literal reading, Titus, the general who destroyed Jerusalem. I would probably take the former. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD but the city was again destroyed and finally cut off and the Jews not allowed back in 135.

It is also interesting to note that the two streams, the people and the city, are not of course unrelated. The fact that the city will be destroyed hints at the fact that the people will not respond as they should during the 70 week period of probationary time. The destruction of the city is ultimately the end of the time of Israel's hopes, though the prophecy indicates that the particular ministry to the Jewish people alone (affirming the covenant) ends before that.

 

[Jon0388g]

Hey I think I can help with question 2 aswel (I can't quite remember the explanation of 1 as I don't have my Bible with me at the mo);


Note in 9:25 the verse says 'restore AND rebuild' - there are two distinct phases here. The restoration part is particularly important.

From Ezra 3 we see the altar being rebuilt, up to chapter 6 with the decree of Darius to specifically rebuild the temple. Daniel 9:25 is accurate in telling us that from the point when Jerusalem is restored and rebuilt is the beginning of the 70-week prophecy. And only in Ezra 7 do we see the verses;

'You are also to know that you have no authority to impose taxes, tribute or duty on any of the priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers......And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people...' (vs 24-25)

We here see the full restoration of the Jewish civil state, not only the religious Temple (both restoring and re-building) - it was from this point onward that Jerusalem was totally their own kingdom again.

Hope this helps!!

Jon

 

[Jon0388g]

There is also verification of the date 457BC aswel, I'll try to dig those out sometime soon for you too!

J

 

[Windmill]

Thanks for the help guys