7 Day creation- literal or figurative?

Speedwell said:

Something much more subtle than the mere presence or absence of photons? Hah! I am right now in the midst of an argument with a Creationist over on the C&ET board who vehemently denies that there is any such wordplay in Genesis.

Click to expand...

(Unaware of your tone and position...)

Do photons dictate earth measurements for day? That is the context of the thread and OP: The implications of a literal seven day creation.

We aren't arguing the existence of the EM force carriers, or quantum chromodynamics.

If there is no sun, and a day is described as a sunset to sunset - or 24 hours (a time derived from eart rotation relative to the sun,) then how can you say day 1 was 24 hours?

The light talked about was not the sunlight. There were no celestial bodies until day 4.

I was just remarking that your explanation of those words in Gen 1:3 indicated a deeper meaning, hinting the separation of good from evil perhaps? It's a new idea for me and I'll have to think about it.

The point was, that for the Creationists (those on the C&ET board, anyway) it must about physical scientific facts only, and contemplating multiple layered meanings like that makes us into Bible-hating, Christ-denying evilutionists. There is no such wordplay in Genesis!

to what can it be compared ? NONE
can God create in 6 days, yes.

tatteredsoul said:

Yom is day in Hebrew, and means a period of time. It could be an aeon, an age or a literal day.

If we take Genesis literally, the fact that there were no heavenly bodies until "day" 4 means we aren't dealing with 24 hour days as it is known - not at least until day 4 of creation.

Time is in its raw form an evolution of events. Days were not created until God separated the light from darkness, and called "Or[e]" day, and "choshek" night. Ore means illumination in every way (knowledge, spirit, visible light...) Choshek means darkness - literal and things like corruption, destruction, death, ignirance...

Upon closer inspection, we can see something much deeper going on even on the first day.

Click to expand...

What of the main problems I have with OEC is that they say God would not deceive and so the earth is clearly billions of years old.

I don't have a problem with that itself, but then there are the miracles where a boy clearly had so many fish and bread, and Jesus fed thousands of people.

There is also Adam. According to the OEC sites I visited seem to confirm that Adam was created as an adult, yet wouldn't that be deceptive? Shouldn't he have been created as an infant?

If the six day was a very long period of time, and old earthers confirm death prior to the Fall, wouldn't Adam have been dead by the start of the "seventh age, especially if each age is thousands or millions of years?

Of course, humans lived longer prior to the Flood, but I don't think they lived that long.

As for the YEC arguments for 24 hour days before the creation of our sun, there are a few ideas.

One is that God provided Himself as a temporary light source and simply said after 24 hours, "Okay, this has been a day." Then on the 4th Day, he made the sun to mark time in the future.

Another theory is that the sun was actually created on the 1st day, but couldn't be seen until the 4th day.

I think both YEC and OEC have some flaws, and Time Relative Creation seems to cover most of it of those problems.

On one hand, I do not believe God is deceiving people by creating something with the appearance of age, but at the same time, we have science for a reason and I believe God intends for us to study our material surroundings.

tatteredsoul said:

Yom is day in Hebrew, and means a period of time. It could be an aeon, an age or a literal day.

If we take Genesis literally, the fact that there were no heavenly bodies until "day" 4 means we aren't dealing with 24 hour days as it is known - not at least until day 4 of creation.

Click to expand...

We weren't dealing with days as we now know it. The first three days were pretty much as the angels had known it for the prehistoric creation. For certain angels partook in causing each day. Lucifer (bearer of light) used to bring in the mornings of the new day. And? Certain angels were called "morning stars." They had a part in the light of the prehistoric creation. The Lord Himself provided the rest of the daylight, as witnessed to in the first three days in Genesis.

And! It does not say that God created the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis One at that point. For they had already been created and were orbiting in a dormant lightless state. The Hebrew states that God chose to [asah] "make" them to bear light. They were not created [bara] at that point in time. In other words.. God threw a Divine switch and turned them on. To their amazement the angels got to see a new function for these orbs in space that were not known prior. It took the angels by surprise. And, it was a huge slap in the face of the arrogance of Lucifer and his angels who used to view themselves as superior, since not all angels were created to be light bearers.

Job tells us that there were two distinctively different kinds of angels that God had originally created. As seen in Job 38:5-7, the original creation of planet earth was viewed by all the angels who watched it taking place and celebrated. Job through the Spirit of prophesy gives us a glance back in time at that event taking place.


As written, there were regular angels (sons of God)... and, there were the 'morning stars.' Two types of angels God had created!

Of all the morning stars, Lucifer was called a great light bearing angel.(Isaiah 14:12)

We are told in the Hebrew text that Lucifer was the "bringer in of each morning." "... Heralder of the Morning.
Satan in his past life, began each new day with his great light production. In essence..as Lucifer, he was manifested
as a super "firefly" which had been created by God's mighty hand.
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
You who have weakened the nations!

“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the remote parts of the north.

‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Time is in its raw form an evolution of events. Days were not created until God separated the light from darkness, and called "Or[e]" day, and "choshek" night. Ore means illumination in every way (knowledge, spirit, visible light...) Choshek means darkness - literal and things like corruption, destruction, death, ignirance...

Upon closer inspection, we can see something much deeper going on even on the first day.

Click to expand...

Yes! Much something deeper going on...

For, the first three days had appeared as days had in the prehistoric world. But, this time, without Lucifer and the morning stars to bring in the morning. This new kind of day was light simply provided by the Lord Himself for the first three days. For, the judged angels were now being denied their old function. At this point they had already been judged by God. Judged because they had become proud and arrogant, placing themselves above all others. Now, in Genesis One, only to find out that they were to be replaced by dead rocks in the sky that God caused to glow. It was a tremendous slam against their feeling of arrogant superiority that they manifested against the other angels that could not bear light!




Yes! Something much deeper was going on!

tatteredsoul said:

Yom is day in Hebrew, and means a period of time. It could be an aeon, an age or a literal day.

If we take Genesis literally, the fact that there were no heavenly bodies until "day" 4 means we aren't dealing with 24 hour days as it is known - not at least until day 4 of creation.

Time is in its raw form an evolution of events. Days were not created until God separated the light from darkness, and called "Or[e]" day, and "choshek" night. Ore means illumination in every way (knowledge, spirit, visible light...) Choshek means darkness - literal and things like corruption, destruction, death, ignirance...

Upon closer inspection, we can see something much deeper going on even on the first day.

Click to expand...

Hi tatteredsoul,

Good study, but wrong on a few points. Your opening thesis is that we can't have days until the sun, moon and stars are created. That just simply isn't true. We certainly can't have a day with a sunrise or sunset or moonrise or moonset without their existence, but...

A day is not defined by the rising or setting of any heavenly body as it appears from the earth. You can test this by looking at any encyclopedia and seeking to know the length of a day on Jupiter. It doesn't tell you that the sun rises or one of its many moons rises and by that they determine the length or definition of a day on Jupiter. No! What you'll find is that the reference will explain that it takes the planet Jupiter about 10 hours of an earth day to complete one full rotation on it's axis. Therefore, a day on Jupiter is about 10 hours long. The sun rising or setting or even existing doesn't even play into the equation.

Similarly, if at the moment that God commanded the earth to exist it was spinning on its axis, then whatever length of time it took for the earth to complete one full rotation on its axis would have marked off a day. Evening and morning likewise don't require any other heavenly bodies to be present. They are pretty much just like our a.m. and p.m. today. They are merely two equal divisions of the time that it takes a planetary body to make its one full rotation. This is why, despite the sun being absolutely nowhere in sight, when our clocks cross the midnight mark we begin to say 'good morning' to people. If you walk into your local Walmart at 3a.m. you're most likely to say 'good morning' to the cashier. Although you can look out the front door and see that it's still pitch black in the sky. Morning is not defined by the rising of the sun. The rising of the sun is something that happens in the morning, it doesn't define the morning.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Speedwell said:

I was just remarking that your explanation of those words in Gen 1:3 indicated a deeper meaning, hinting the separation of good from evil perhaps? It's a new idea for me and I'll have to think about it.

The point was, that for the Creationists (those on the C&ET board, anyway) it must about physical scientific facts only, and contemplating multiple layered meanings like that makes us into Bible-hating, Christ-denying evilutionists. There is no such wordplay in Genesis!

Click to expand...

Ok.

I apologize if hostile sounding I wasnt. I just didn't know where you were coming from. I should have asked.

FaithfulPilgrim said:

What of the main problems I have with OEC is that they say God would not deceive and so the earth is clearly billions of years old.

Click to expand...

Since I believe in OEC (old earth creation?) I will speak on this, but I cant speak for all OECs. My view overall could yield embrace of one denomination in one thought, and draw disdIn in the next.

I believe the earth is older than time itself - taking everything literally (of course even literary devices that are real have figurative connotations.) Since Earth was created before time itself - with heaven - it is older than time. It was still created so it has a "beginning," but definitely don't believe it is only thousands of years old. I don't think that conclusion I drew is deception from God. I fact, I think it is illuminating.

I don't have a problem with that itself, but then there are the miracles where a boy clearly had so many fish and bread, and Jesus fed thousands of people.

Click to expand...

I dont have a problem with miracles at all.

There is also Adam. According to the OEC sites I visited seem to confirm that Adam was created as an adult, yet wouldn't that be deceptive? Shouldn't he have been created as an infant?

Click to expand...

I do believe Adam was made mature - old enough to handle the responsibility of dominion of an entire planet, procreate and name all animals with functional and thoughtful names. Adam was INNOCENT, like a baby in that he was not exposed to the facets of life like evil and travail. He and Eve had no reason to be hardened, or anything other than innocent of our world.

If the six day was a very long period of time, and old earthers confirm death prior to the Fall, wouldn't Adam have been dead by the start of the "seventh age, especially if each age is thousands or millions of years?

Click to expand...

I don't quite follow.

But, I am also not saying each day was 1000 years, 1,000,000,000 years, or even one day only. . You means a time period - even unspecified. So, at least before day 4 no days were 24 hours, and they COULD be 24 hours after (but not required.)

Of course, humans lived longer prior to the Flood, but I don't think they lived that long.

Click to expand...

I do believe they lived as long as it says - up until after the flood. The flood could have naturally changed the DNA of the remaining eight humans left on earth - seeing the world actually end.

I believe God also says he caps the age at 120 after the flood - like Abraham.

You have to think about it: ADAM and eve were perfect in their spirits and body. When they sinned their spirit died but their perfect bodies began to rot to death. It takes aon time to rot perfection even if it is corrupted - just like a precious metal. By the 10th generation, the genetics of Adam would still be pretty spectacular and long-lived. Even 50, 60, 100 generations in our time our bodies are extraordinary.

As for the YEC arguments for 24 hour days before the creation of our sun, there are a few ideas.

One is that God provided Himself as a temporary light source and simply said after 24 hours, "Okay, this has been a day." Then on the 4th Day, he made the sun to mark time in the future.

Click to expand...

The Hebrew nor the actual wording of the chapters don't say this, or hint at this. If there was a light source capable of doing this, it would be expicitly stated as separate from the "or[e]" stated in the beginning of chapter 1.

Another theory is that the sun was actually created on the 1st day, but couldn't be seen until the 4th day.

Click to expand...

Then, God would have said that, and distinguished it from the heavenly body sun, or explained why there was a first and second sun.

I think both YEC and OEC have some flaws, and Time Relative Creation seems to cover most of it of those problems.

On one hand, I do not believe God is deceiving people by creating something with the appearance of age, but at the same time, we have science for a reason and I believe God intends for us to study our material surroundings.

Click to expand...

We do have science; academia is not trustworthy. God does not make us stupid; He set up a celestial system that predates even Sumerian astronomy. We were made in His image, which means we critically think and produce.

Today, academia will say one thing, and in 15 years claim that oNE thing is wrong in exchange for a new paradigm.

And, don't you think it may be self-deception to input objects that aren't explicitly or implicitly part of the context? For example why introduce a first sun to justify the light before Sol, when God says He created Sol and Luna on the fourth day?

miamited said:

Hi tatteredsoul,

Good study, but wrong on a few points. Your opening thesis is that we can't have days until the sun, moon and stars are created. That just simply isn't true. We certainly can't have a day with a sunrise or sunset or moonrise or moonset without their existence, but...

A day is not defined by the rising or setting of any heavenly body as it appears from the earth. You can test this by looking at any encyclopedia and seeking to know the length of a day on Jupiter. It doesn't tell you that the sun rises or one of its many moons rises and by that they determine the length or definition of a day on Jupiter. No! What you'll find is that the reference will explain that it takes the planet Jupiter about 10 hours of an earth day to complete one full rotation on it's axis. Therefore, a day on Jupiter is about 10 hours long. The sun rising or setting or even existing doesn't even play into the equation.

Similarly, if at the moment that God commanded the earth to exist it was spinning on its axis, then whatever length of time it took for the earth to complete one full rotation on its axis would have marked off a day. Evening and morning likewise don't require any other heavenly bodies to be present. They are pretty much just like our a.m. and p.m. today. They are merely two equal divisions of the time that it takes a planetary body to make its one full rotation. This is why, despite the sun being absolutely nowhere in sight, when our clocks cross the midnight mark we begin to say 'good morning' to people. If you walk into your local Walmart at 3a.m. you're most likely to say 'good morning' to the cashier. Although you can look out the front door and see that it's still pitch black in the sky. Morning is not defined by the rising of the sun. The rising of the sun is something that happens in the morning, it doesn't define the morning.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Click to expand...

My opening thesis isnt that we can't have days until the sun is made, it is that there was no sun on the first day, and so context demands that we understand we are not talking about SOL, made on the fourth day, as the light separated from darkness. That is the big point. In other words, you can't say the first three days are 24 hours because

1)that is an earth measurement of the rotation relative to the sun (or moon, both created on day 4,) and

2) the Hebrew word for day means many things; in fact, however, it does NOT mean a 24 hour day. That definition is not in the Hebrew definition of yom. When the day is hot, or when the sunset to sunset happens is in the definition, but this does not mean a day is 24 hours at all. Clearly, when Israel had daylight for three days, by God''s standard the sunset began the next day. That was 72 hours of day, roughly 6-8 hours of sunset to make an 80 hour day. God says a day is from sunset to sunset AFTER creation - which is an evolution of events, not a "time" there is no such thing as time.

The 24 hour day theory for all seven days is flawed.[/b]

tatteredsoul said:

Since I believe in OEC (old earth creation?) I will speak on this, but I cant speak for all OECs. My view overall could yield embrace of one denomination in one thought, and draw disdIn in the next.

I believe the earth is older than time itself - taking everything literally (of course even literary devices that are real have figurative connotations.) Since Earth was created before time itself - with heaven - it is older than time. It was still created so it has a "beginning," but definitely don't believe it is only thousands of years old. I don't think that conclusion I drew is deception from God. I fact, I think it is illuminating.



I dont have a problem with miracles at all.



I do believe Adam was made mature - old enough to handle the responsibility of dominion of an entire planet, procreate and name all animals with functional and thoughtful names. Adam was INNOCENT, like a baby in that he was not exposed to the facets of life like evil and travail. He and Eve had no reason to be hardened, or anything other than innocent of our world.



I don't quite follow.

But, I am also not saying each day was 1000 years, 1,000,000,000 years, or even one day only. . You means a time period - even unspecified. So, at least before day 4 no days were 24 hours, and they COULD be 24 hours after (but not required.)



I do believe they lived as long as it says - up until after the flood. The flood could have naturally changed the DNA of the remaining eight humans left on earth - seeing the world actually end.

I believe God also says he caps the age at 120 after the flood - like Abraham.

You have to think about it: ADAM and eve were perfect in their spirits and body. When they sinned their spirit died but their perfect bodies began to rot to death. It takes aon time to rot perfection even if it is corrupted - just like a precious metal. By the 10th generation, the genetics of Adam would still be pretty spectacular and long-lived. Even 50, 60, 100 generations in our time our bodies are extraordinary.



The Hebrew nor the actual wording of the chapters don't say this, or hint at this. If there was a light source capable of doing this, it would be expicitly stated as separate from the "or[e]" stated in the beginning of chapter 1.



Then, God would have said that, and distinguished it from the heavenly body sun, or explained why there was a first and second sun.



We do have science; academia is not trustworthy. God does not make us stupid; He set up a celestial system that predates even Sumerian astronomy. We were made in His image, which means we critically think and produce.

Today, academia will say one thing, and in 15 years claim that oNE thing is wrong in exchange for a new paradigm.

And, don't you think it may be self-deception to input objects that aren't explicitly or implicitly part of the context? For example why introduce a first sun to justify the light before Sol, when God says He created Sol and Luna on the fourth day?

Click to expand...

Good post!

Though, I find your response about miracles and Adam's age a bit lacking, but otherwise very good!

What I meant is that wouldn't that miracle have been deceptive since the boy had very little food for the crowd. I fully believe in miracles, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not accusing of not believing in miracles, I just want to know why it wouldn't be deceptive according to OEC.

Adam was created mature, but what I meant is isn't that deceptive as he was created physically mature (with the appearance of being physically mature) yet, was probably only a few days or years old before the Fall.

Also, you're OEC, but from your post, I get that you believe Adam and Eve were immortal. Am I understanding that correctly? Or are you saying they aged a lot slower?

genez said:

We weren't dealing with days as we now know it. The first three days were pretty much as the angels had known it for the prehistoric creation. For certain angels partook in causing each day. Lucifer (bearer of light) used to bring in the mornings of the new day. And? Certain angels were called "morning stars." They had a part in the light of the prehistoric creation. The Lord Himself provided the rest of the daylight, as witnessed to in the first three days in Genesis.

And! It does not say that God created the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis One at that point. For they had already been created and were orbiting in a dormant lightless state. The Hebrew states that God chose to [asah] "make" them to bear light. They were not created [bara] at that point in time. In other words.. God threw a Divine switch and turned them on. To their amazement the angels got to see a new function for these orbs in space that were not known prior. It took the angels by surprise. And, it was a huge slap in the face of the arrogance of Lucifer and his angels who used to view themselves as superior, since not all angels were created to be light bearers.

Job tells us that there were two distinctively different kinds of angels that God had originally created. As seen in Job 38:5-7, the original creation of planet earth was viewed by all the angels who watched it taking place and celebrated. Job through the Spirit of prophesy gives us a glance back in time at that event taking place.

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? Job 38:5-7
​

As written, there were regular angels (sons of God)... and, there were the 'morning stars.' Two types of angels God had created!

Of all the morning stars, Lucifer was called a great light bearing angel.(Isaiah 14:12)

We are told in the Hebrew text that Lucifer was the "bringer in of each morning." "... Heralder of the Morning.
Satan in his past life, began each new day with his great light production. In essence..as Lucifer, he was manifested
as a super "firefly" which had been created by God's mighty hand.

​

“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
You who have weakened the nations!

“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the remote parts of the north.

‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)




Yes! Much something deeper going on...

For, the first three days had appeared as days had in the prehistoric world. But, this time, without Lucifer and the morning stars to bring in the morning. This new kind of day was light simply provided by the Lord Himself for the first three days. For, the judged angels were now being denied their old function. At this point they had already been judged by God. Judged because they had become proud and arrogant, placing themselves above all others. Now, in Genesis One, only to find out that they were to be replaced by dead rocks in the sky that God caused to glow. It was a tremendous slam against their feeling of arrogant superiority that they manifested against the other angels that could not bear light!

Revelation 22:5

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp
or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.
And they will reign for ever and ever.​

Yes! Something much deeper was going on!

Click to expand...

If I understand you correctly, this is what I was getting at.

The angels were all light - ORE - illumination in every way. Between eternity, and eternity - 1 leading to the spiritual fall, "something" happened. That was when the earth BECAME void and desolate, as God does not make desolastion.

There was a war in Heaven.

After or during this war, God separated the light (illumination in every) from the darkness (corruption, ignorance, confusion, desolation, death, etc.)

That marked the first DAY, and the first "countdown" in history - the need to separate light from dark.

Then, He replinished the earth anew.

Then, He replinished the cosmos.

Then, He made man.

These days are indistinguishable in time. It could be billions of years to an instant. And, since yom also means age (the DAY of the Lord, for example,) it isn't a certainty that a day was converted into 24 hours at all. For example, day seven is supposed to be everlasting.

Hi tatteredsoul,

You responded:

tatteredsoul said:

In other words, you can't say the first three days are 24 hours because 1)that is an earth measurement of the rotation relative to the sun (or moon, both created on day 4,) and

Click to expand...

That's one of the points that you're just wrong about. The earth measurement of a rotation is not relative to the sun or moon. It is merely that we pick a place on the surface of the earth and when that place comes around again we have witnessed one full rotation. We can use any point on the earth as a reference and of course for us to witness the event we'd have to be there, but...

The event happens whether we are there or not. The event happens whether anyone picks a point from which to mark the rotation. The whole of the earth, once it turns one complete rotation marks a day. There needn't be a single other heavenly body in all of the universe for this to happen and for the time of a day to pass on the earth measured the exact same way that a day is measured today. Yes, we often pick a point on the earth that is facing the sun to make our measurement, but that isn't a necessary requirement of the equation.

You are absolutely correct that the word 'yom' is indeterminate as to any particular length of actual time. It is, just as the word 'day' is today, a word that requires some contextual reference in order to be understood. God knows this. Therefore He caused to be written the contextual reference. "There was evening and there was morning, the first 'yom'." We would say this today as, "There was p.m. and there was a.m. the first day."

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

OK and everyone before any of you bark at a YEC or OEC, I do not speak for them or their beliefs only mine.

FaithfulPilgrim said:

Good post!

Though, I find your response about miracles and Adam's age a bit lacking, but otherwise very good!

What I meant is that wouldn't that miracle have been deceptive since the boy had very little food for the crowd. I fully believe in miracles, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not accusing of not believing in miracles, I just want to know why it wouldn't be deceptive according to OEC.

Adam was created mature, but what I meant is isn't that deceptive as he was created physically mature (with the appearance of being physically mature) yet, was probably only a few days or years old before the Fall.

Click to expand...

I don't think either case is deeceptive, but I can see your point.

I think the Enemy saw this vulnerability in them, and exploited it to make them fall. Like, when the serpent tried to coax Eve into distrust in God. The entity convinced Eve that in fact, God had made them Lacking, because of His own fear of their potential (wow...) And, their innocence was exploited in that they had no reason to be jaded enough to think a creature of God would deceive them into a fallen race and death.

That is the innocence I mean.

Also, you're OEC, but from your post, I get that you believe Adam and Eve were immortal. Am I understanding that correctly? Or are you saying they aged a lot slower?

Click to expand...

I believe they were immortal before the fall.

After the fall, I believe their spirit died as God said that day.

I believe that since their spirit died (almost like a superpowerful nuclear generator for their earth suits,) their bodies also naturally began to die - as there was no "essence" keeping their earth bodies immortal (healed clean, etc.)

After the fall, because of their perfection previously had, their earth bodies very slowly decayed as their genetics changed to accommodate an ever changing and corrupt world.

miamited said:

Hi tatteredsoul,

You responded:


That's one of the points that you're just wrong about. The earth measurement of a rotation is not relative to the sun or moon. It is merely that we pick a place on the surface of the earth and when that place comes around again we have witnessed one full rotation. We can use any point on the earth as a reference and of course for us to witness the event we'd have to be there, but...

The event happens whether we are there or not. The event happens whether anyone picks a point from which to mark the rotation. The whole of the earth, once it turns one complete rotation marks a day. There needn't be a single other heavenly body in all of the universe for this to happen and for the time of a day to pass on the earth measured the exact same way that a day is measured today. Yes, we often pick a point on the earth that is facing the sun to make our measurement, but that isn't a necessary requirement of the equation.

You are absolutely correct that the word 'yom' is indeterminate as to any particular length of actual time. It is, just as the word 'day' is today, a word that requires some contextual reference in order to be understood. God knows this. Therefore He caused to be written the contextual reference. "There was evening and there was morning, the first 'yom'." We would say this today as, "There was p.m. and there was a.m. the first day."

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Click to expand...

I said that it is the rotation of the earth relative to the sun or moon - not the orbit. We are saying the same thing.

"EREB" and "BOQER" both connote two very different things other than "sunset" or am/pm when there are no celestial bodies.

If your argue that there were celestial bodies in the first three days, we need to know why God didn't mention their CREATION until the fourth - in which the connotation was successive in creation.

Hi tatteredsoul,

You responded:

tatteredsoul said:

I said that it is the rotation of the earth relative to the sun or moon - not the orbit. We are saying the same thing.

Click to expand...

No, we are not! You are saying that these measurements are relative to the sun or moon. I am saying that they are not. As far as I know, yes, we are neither one speaking of the earth's orbit.

You also wrote:

tatteredsoul said:

"EREB" and "BOQUER" both connote two very different things other than "sunset" or am/pm when there are no celestial bodies.

Click to expand...

You may be right about what these two Hebrew words mean. I honestly don't have a clue. What I do know that God intended to convey to us in using those two words was that each day (since we both agree the word 'day' can mean different time spans) consisted of two halves. An evening and a morning, just as each day that we experience today has. What I then said was that today, we explain this 'evening and morning' of the period of time of a day as a.m. and p.m. It is the same concept, but we use different terms.

You closed your post by writing:

tatteredsoul said:

If your argue that there were celestial bodies in the first three days, we need to know why God didn't mention their CREATION until the fourth - in which the connotation was successive in creation.

Click to expand...

I have never argued that there were other heavenly bodies in all of the universe when the earth was created. My description of the beginning of the creation of this realm is that God commanded in the total inky blackness of emptiness that we call 'space' that there be light. The source of that light is never explained other than it's being commanded by God to be. We can certainly discuss and put forth various ideas, but there is no way we will ever have any assurance that any one of them is correct. He then commanded that the singular body of our planet, 'earth' to exist. That singular body of the earth and all that God created to be on and in the earth, were all that existed in all of what we today call the universe. That has always been my understanding.

After God created the earth as a planetary ball covered with water and then divided the waters and covered it with all sorts of green plants, then God created all of the other heavenly bodies across the expanse of the whole universe. It was on this day, and after the previous work that God had completed upon the earth, that He created the sun and the moon and all of the stars and other planets and asteroids and comets that we see today filling the vast universe.

It is all just amazing and utterly unimaginable to us, but that's why He's God and I'm not. One of the major differences in our understanding of God and all of the work that He did in creating this realm is likely one of understanding God's purpose. I firmly and faithfully believe that when God stepped down from His throne and opened the first day of creation in this realm that His purpose was to create man. To do that He needed to create a place for man to live. It doesn't take God hundreds of thousands of years to do that. He merely commands what He desires to exist and it does. He is perfect in His understanding of all things. He knew that this creature called man would need water to drink for his fleshly body to survive and so the home that He created had that. He knew that this creature called man would need food also to sustain his body of flesh and so God created that also. He knew that this creature called man would need oxygen to fill his lungs to operate his body of flesh and so God created that for us. He knew all these things before He even spoke the first 'let there be...'. God knew exactly what He was doing and what would be needed for an eternal existence for a creature of flesh to live and over a period of six rotations of the earth that He created as the place for man to live, He created all that man would need. Praise God!!!! He did this all for you and me.

Then He caused to be written a brief account of how He did it all. For me, it's all about understanding that I live in a created realm. A realm which God created for a creature of flesh to live. It was God's sole purpose when He stepped into this realm and spoke the first 'let there be...', that when He was done in a few days He would make the first man to live in what He had created for him. He would love and nurture and provide for man all that he would need throughout all of eternity, but there were some rules that had to be maintained in order that it be the perfect place for everyone. Unfortunately, man wasn't able to keep himself from disobeying.

But, God knew all of this also. He knew that a Savior would be needed in order that God would get what He desired from His creative work. You see, when God said 'let there be light!', that was only the beginning of a very detailed and previously worked out plan. A plan that would ultimately bring God to the place where He would say, "Now there will be no more crying and no more tears or pain or suffering. For those who have believed and trusted me, I will be their God and live among them. I will be their God and they will be my people."

The Scriptures delineate a plan that began with the time of six rotations of the earth for God to build a realm of existence and ends with God triumphant in attaining a royal priesthood; a body of people who would love and honor Him just as He would love and honor them.

I believe, that once we understand the purpose for which God created this realm, that the time for Him to accomplish His purpose becomes clear.

God bless you.,
In Christ, Ted

tatteredsoul said:

If I understand you correctly, this is what I was getting at.

The angels were all light - ORE - illumination in every way. Between eternity, and eternity - 1 leading to the spiritual fall, "something" happened. That was when the earth BECAME void and desolate, as God does not make desolastion.

There was a war in Heaven.

After or during this war, God separated the light (illumination in every) from the darkness (corruption, ignorance, confusion, desolation, death, etc.)

That marked the first DAY, and the first "countdown" in history - the need to separate light from dark.

Then, He replinished the earth anew.

Then, He replinished the cosmos.

Then, He made man.

These days are indistinguishable in time. It could be billions of years to an instant. And, since yom also means age (the DAY of the Lord, for example,) it isn't a certainty that a day was converted into 24 hours at all. For example, day seven is supposed to be everlasting.

Click to expand...

You did not understand what i was saying. Sorry... Can't respond to what has nothing in common with what i said. Seems like you only read words, not thoughts, of what I stated. Then, added your own concepts while asking me if you read me right.

genez said:

You did not understand what i was saying. Sorry... Can't respond to what has nothing in common with what i said. Seems like you only read words, not thoughts, of what I stated. Then, added your own concepts while asking me if you read me right.

Click to expand...

Well, I did preface it by saying, "if I understand you correctly..."

The Internet is the last bastion for literary clarity in text; try to cut me some slack...

What were you trying to say?

tatteredsoul said:

Well, I did preface it by saying, "if I understand you correctly..."

The Internet is the last bastion for literary clarity in text; try to cut me some slack...

What were you trying to say?

Click to expand...

Look again...

tatteredsoul said:

Yom is day in Hebrew, and means a period of time. It could be an aeon, an age or a literal day.

If we take Genesis literally, the fact that there were no heavenly bodies until "day" 4 means we aren't dealing with 24 hour days as it is known - not at least until day 4 of creation.

Click to expand...

We weren't dealing with days as we now know it. The first three days were pretty much as the angels had known it for the prehistoric creation. For certain angels partook in causing each day. Lucifer (bearer of light) used to bring in the mornings of the new day. And? Certain angels were called "morning stars." They had a part in the light of the prehistoric creation. The Lord Himself provided the rest of the daylight, as witnessed to in the first three days in Genesis.

And! It does not say that God created the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis One at that point. For they had already been created and were orbiting in a dormant lightless state. The Hebrew states that God chose to [asah] "make" them to bear light. They were not created [bara] at that point in time. In other words.. God threw a Divine switch and turned them on. To their amazement the angels got to see a new function for these orbs in space that were not known prior. It took the angels by surprise. And, it was a huge slap in the face of the arrogance of Lucifer and his angels who used to view themselves as superior, since not all angels were created to be light bearers.

Job tells us that there were two distinctively different kinds of angels that God had originally created. As seen in Job 38:5-7, the original creation of planet earth was viewed by all the angels who watched it taking place and celebrated. Job through the Spirit of prophesy gives us a glance back in time at that event taking place.


As written, there were regular angels (sons of God)... and, there were the 'morning stars.' Two types of angels God had created!

Of all the morning stars, Lucifer was called a great light bearing angel.(Isaiah 14:12)

We are told in the Hebrew text that Lucifer was the "bringer in of each morning." "... Heralder of the Morning.
Satan in his past life, began each new day with his great light production. In essence..as Lucifer, he was manifested
as a super "firefly" which had been created by God's mighty hand.
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
You who have weakened the nations!

“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the remote parts of the north.

‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Time is in its raw form an evolution of events. Days were not created until God separated the light from darkness, and called "Or[e]" day, and "choshek" night. Ore means illumination in every way (knowledge, spirit, visible light...) Choshek means darkness - literal and things like corruption, destruction, death, ignirance...

Upon closer inspection, we can see something much deeper going on even on the first day.

Click to expand...

Yes! Much something deeper going on...

For, the first three days had appeared as days had in the prehistoric world. But, this time, without Lucifer and the morning stars to bring in the morning. This new kind of day was light simply provided by the Lord Himself for the first three days. For, the judged angels were now being denied their old function. At this point they had already been judged by God. Judged because they had become proud and arrogant, placing themselves above all others. Now, in Genesis One, only to find out that they were to be replaced by dead rocks in the sky that God caused to glow. It was a tremendous slam against their feeling of arrogant superiority that they manifested against the other angels that could not bear light!




Yes! Something much deeper was going on!

genez said:

Look again...



We weren't dealing with days as we now know it. The first three days were pretty much as the angels had known it for the prehistoric creation. For certain angels partook in causing each day. Lucifer (bearer of light) used to bring in the mornings of the new day. And? Certain angels were called "morning stars." They had a part in the light of the prehistoric creation. The Lord Himself provided the rest of the daylight, as witnessed to in the first three days in Genesis.

And! It does not say that God created the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis One at that point. For they had already been created and were orbiting in a dormant lightless state. The Hebrew states that God chose to [asah] "make" them to bear light. They were not created [bara] at that point in time. In other words.. God threw a Divine switch and turned them on. To their amazement the angels got to see a new function for these orbs in space that were not known prior. It took the angels by surprise. And, it was a huge slap in the face of the arrogance of Lucifer and his angels who used to view themselves as superior, since not all angels were created to be light bearers.

Job tells us that there were two distinctively different kinds of angels that God had originally created. As seen in Job 38:5-7, the original creation of planet earth was viewed by all the angels who watched it taking place and celebrated. Job through the Spirit of prophesy gives us a glance back in time at that event taking place.

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? Job 38:5-7
​

As written, there were regular angels (sons of God)... and, there were the 'morning stars.' Two types of angels God had created!

Of all the morning stars, Lucifer was called a great light bearing angel.(Isaiah 14:12)

We are told in the Hebrew text that Lucifer was the "bringer in of each morning." "... Heralder of the Morning.
Satan in his past life, began each new day with his great light production. In essence..as Lucifer, he was manifested
as a super "firefly" which had been created by God's mighty hand.

​

“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
You who have weakened the nations!

“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the remote parts of the north.

‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)




Yes! Much something deeper going on...

For, the first three days had appeared as days had in the prehistoric world. But, this time, without Lucifer and the morning stars to bring in the morning. This new kind of day was light simply provided by the Lord Himself for the first three days. For, the judged angels were now being denied their old function. At this point they had already been judged by God. Judged because they had become proud and arrogant, placing themselves above all others. Now, in Genesis One, only to find out that they were to be replaced by dead rocks in the sky that God caused to glow. It was a tremendous slam against their feeling of arrogant superiority that they manifested against the other angels that could not bear light!

Revelation 22:5

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp
or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.
And they will reign for ever and ever.​

Yes! Something much deeper was going on!

Click to expand...

Interesting...

You were right.