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bluemarkus said:
lukewarm, yes that thought had occured to me too, please explain dispensationalist.
And can anyone tell me what the Nicolaitans were up to, it seems the Lord was most displeased with them but I don't know what for.
And God Bless All His Peoples.
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Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)
2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Nicolaitanes
From nikao, "to conquer," and laos, "the people," or "laity." There is no ancient authority for a sect of the Nicolaitanes. If the word is symbolic it refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or "clergy," which later divided an equal brotherhood Matthew 23:8 into "priests" and "laity." What in Ephesus was "deeds" Revelation 2:6 had become in Pergamos a "doctrine Revelation 2:15.
2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Nicolaitanes
From nikao, "to conquer," and laos, "the people," or "laity." There is no ancient authority for a sect of the Nicolaitanes. If the word is symbolic it refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or "clergy," which later divided an equal brotherhood Matthew 23:8 into "priests" and "laity." What in Ephesus was "deeds" Revelation 2:6 had become in Pergamos a "doctrine Revelation 2:15.
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Justme said:
Greetings Justme et al,
I don't think many really grasp what the following verses are saying:
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
There are physical principalties and powers, but please note that we wage war NOT AGAINST FLESH & BLOOD, but against those POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES IN HEAVENLY PLACES.
Please consider that when Daniel prayed for 21 days, God had sent Gabriel with an answer on the very first day, but he was detained by the "Prince of Persia" (see Daniel 10). Other "princes" are mentioned as well. What these are speaking of are the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWER IN HEAVENLY PLACES.
Now if you can understand this, then please realize that over every nation, every kingdom, every people group, including "churches" there is a "spirit" that presides over that "principality".
Jesus was addressing the "angels" of the churches in Rev 1-3. Let me refer you to these verses:
Hebrews 1:13-14 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Throughout the Bible we see that God has used these "ministering spirits" to minister to people groups (churches). These are eternal, heavenly beings that are given charge over these groups. This is who is being addressed in Rev. 1-3. So as with the case of Thyatira this SPIRIT that governs this type of church will be around from the time of the original churches even to the very last church over which that SPIRIT would have responsibility.
Both Satan and God has a heirarchy of angels that lead particular "people groups" in the way they should go.
Please note in every church what it says:
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
and what does Jesus say:
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear:
We are supposed to be listening with our SPIRITUAL ears, seeing with our SPIRITUAL eyes, and perceiving with the SPIRIT in determining what these verses mean.
The "natural man" listens with his "natural ears", but those who are "spiritual", listen with their "spiritual ears":
1 Corinthians 2:12-16 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I hope that clarifies things.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
Again a nice post, but it doesn't deal with the part that concerns me.
I'll explain an tell you that I have been 'accused' of being a full preterist on this forum and I always argued I was not.This verse has me questioning that. Up to the last few weeks I haven't agreed totally with either form of preterism, I may have to change my mind.
So again. The contents of the letter had to be made available to the people at Thyatira in biblical times. If it wasn't, did Thyatira people ever get to read it before Thyatira disappeared? If they didn't ever get to read it why would Jesus bother dictating the letter to John in the first place? Why would Jesus mention Thyatira in the first place? If the people of that time weren't going to see it or hear of it , Jesus could have told John to send the letter to New York or where ever.
That is what I want to know , is what did the people think who heard the words of Jesus which said,"hold until I come?" What did your great grandfather think? OR did Jesus come in your great grandfather's time? Or in 70 AD?
I'll be as clear as I can....if there is no explanation for that exact part of the sentence, I have to be very careful what I write about on this group of forums because I just learnt the absolute truth. Well, I guess, who needs a forum after you get the picture anyway.
Please comment on this,
Justme
Again a nice post, but it doesn't deal with the part that concerns me.
I'll explain an tell you that I have been 'accused' of being a full preterist on this forum and I always argued I was not.This verse has me questioning that. Up to the last few weeks I haven't agreed totally with either form of preterism, I may have to change my mind.
So again. The contents of the letter had to be made available to the people at Thyatira in biblical times. If it wasn't, did Thyatira people ever get to read it before Thyatira disappeared? If they didn't ever get to read it why would Jesus bother dictating the letter to John in the first place? Why would Jesus mention Thyatira in the first place? If the people of that time weren't going to see it or hear of it , Jesus could have told John to send the letter to New York or where ever.
That is what I want to know , is what did the people think who heard the words of Jesus which said,"hold until I come?" What did your great grandfather think? OR did Jesus come in your great grandfather's time? Or in 70 AD?
I'll be as clear as I can....if there is no explanation for that exact part of the sentence, I have to be very careful what I write about on this group of forums because I just learnt the absolute truth. Well, I guess, who needs a forum after you get the picture anyway.
Please comment on this,
Justme
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ChristianMuse
Senior Member
Justme said:
Basing your belief and letting it hinge on one particular passage is a quick way to get lost. I find this in the reading. That the message is basically to the angel and not to the church. It does however apply to the church as it works out the things that God is asking and also the problem found among the congregation. There is a call to everyone who doesn't hold to the false doctrine to hold fast till he comes. On this "holding fast till he comes"? It can mean until his return to the earth. It can also mean until God reveals his hand to deal with the issue. His predicted dealing with Jezebel can be the revealing or coming. Why? Because it waits to see if there will be repentance after God's warning. The next lines in scripture refers to that church and the wordwide church... to he who overcomes is a message down through the ages to the churches.
The Preterist slant on theology itself gets twisted over this verse. If as they say that Jesus came back with the giving of the Holy Spirit (their mid-week understanding of Daniel)... then how come Jesus had not yet returned by the time John wrote Rev. The point I am making is that it is a bad verse to hinge your belief system on. There are several explanations that are valid. Look to other scriptures to get a fuller understanding of "till he comes" and when that had or will occur.
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Justme,
Only recently have I concluded that Jesus is not "omniscient", or at least as we might attribute that term to God the Father, and here is why:
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Acts 1:6-7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
These verses tell me that ONLY the Father knows times and dates set by His own hand and has revealed ONLY the EVENTS that transpire during those times to His Son. So the Son speaks of EVENTS and tells us the order of them, but NOT the times. He may speak of separating the sheep from the goats in one context and in a particular order, BUT He is not mentioning that they are separated by 1,000 years, although we might surmise that from the scriptures.
But when Jesus is speaking of His 2nd advent, which has yet to come, He tells us of the events and we being mortal, not even worthy to know and understand what Jesus knows and understands according to what the Father has given to Him, we make matters worse by trying to draw TIME charts, when in fact those things are not given us.
So when He says "until I come", we know that the church at Thyatira probably did not last till today, He had to be addressing the "spirit" of that church, which in fact remains to this day in some churches. Now this calls for some HEAVY consideration. The Preterist view takes these so called "time" verses and tries to make a doctrine of them, yet we know from even the verses I have already cited, that ONLY THE FATHER knows the times and dates set by His own hand. We have events that are given us that are quite clear and they "mark" the time, so to speak, so that we, even as Jesus said:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
or as Paul has said:
2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The TIMES are marked by EVENTS, so to the speaker or writer of the scriptures, a series of events can be revealed, and their times are not revealed. So we who like to put everything in a "time" setting get confused when we try to do that. Thus has the Preterist had to twist and contort all sorts of scriptures in order to make their paradigm work or even be reasonable, but then everything else just becomes more confusing.
Hope that helps.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
Only recently have I concluded that Jesus is not "omniscient", or at least as we might attribute that term to God the Father, and here is why:
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Acts 1:6-7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
These verses tell me that ONLY the Father knows times and dates set by His own hand and has revealed ONLY the EVENTS that transpire during those times to His Son. So the Son speaks of EVENTS and tells us the order of them, but NOT the times. He may speak of separating the sheep from the goats in one context and in a particular order, BUT He is not mentioning that they are separated by 1,000 years, although we might surmise that from the scriptures.
But when Jesus is speaking of His 2nd advent, which has yet to come, He tells us of the events and we being mortal, not even worthy to know and understand what Jesus knows and understands according to what the Father has given to Him, we make matters worse by trying to draw TIME charts, when in fact those things are not given us.
So when He says "until I come", we know that the church at Thyatira probably did not last till today, He had to be addressing the "spirit" of that church, which in fact remains to this day in some churches. Now this calls for some HEAVY consideration. The Preterist view takes these so called "time" verses and tries to make a doctrine of them, yet we know from even the verses I have already cited, that ONLY THE FATHER knows the times and dates set by His own hand. We have events that are given us that are quite clear and they "mark" the time, so to speak, so that we, even as Jesus said:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
or as Paul has said:
2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The TIMES are marked by EVENTS, so to the speaker or writer of the scriptures, a series of events can be revealed, and their times are not revealed. So we who like to put everything in a "time" setting get confused when we try to do that. Thus has the Preterist had to twist and contort all sorts of scriptures in order to make their paradigm work or even be reasonable, but then everything else just becomes more confusing.
Hope that helps.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Hi Forum,
You know what, I think it is the people on this forum that are distorting the bible. I'm off to a full preterist site to dig deeper into what they say concerning the "second coming" being a totally past event. I have always been of the opinion that the second coming for me was a future event, but this verse has got me questioning that.
Thanks , see you later,
If I don't come back, I hope everyone enjoys life.
Justme
You know what, I think it is the people on this forum that are distorting the bible. I'm off to a full preterist site to dig deeper into what they say concerning the "second coming" being a totally past event. I have always been of the opinion that the second coming for me was a future event, but this verse has got me questioning that.
Thanks , see you later,
If I don't come back, I hope everyone enjoys life.
Justme
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ChristianMuse
Senior Member
Justme said:
A paradigm shift? I hope not. All this because of a scripture that may have more than one meaning, but only accepting one. I wish you would search the scriptures rather than immerse yourself into the detailed study of another pattern. May the Spirit of God help you discern the truth and accept it.
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mythbuster said:
Thanks friend, are you suggesting it might mean division of the people by the priests?
And God Bless All His Peoples.
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Hi Christianmuse,
I made a tour of a couple of websites which I consider to be full scale preterist. I gather that they feel the parousia happened once for all time in 70 AD. Seems to me that the 'second coming' to them might be nothing more than the 'born again' experience is to an evangelical.It seems they put great emphasis that since 70 AD believers are ...with...God and that is the big deal.
So I have determined from scripture that parousia means much more than that. I see that the references to Jesus coming and the return of Jesus involves the final step in the establishment of the Kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven.
A very basic set of verses...
Matthew 16
28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Sure I know, it's the transfiguration, but is also this.
They will SEE the Son of Man come in His Kingdom. What did they see? The transfiguration. What is the transfiguration? It is the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Same applies for Mark 9. What did they SEE? They saw the Kingdom of God come with power. It was the same event so the kingdoms are the same.
Only that few men lived to see this event which means everybody else that sees it is dead. Therefore I can't accept the full preteist meaning because we have to be dead to see the kingdom.
I'm not dead yet. Did the people at Thyatira that read that letter or heard of it's contents die?
Justme
I made a tour of a couple of websites which I consider to be full scale preterist. I gather that they feel the parousia happened once for all time in 70 AD. Seems to me that the 'second coming' to them might be nothing more than the 'born again' experience is to an evangelical.It seems they put great emphasis that since 70 AD believers are ...with...God and that is the big deal.
So I have determined from scripture that parousia means much more than that. I see that the references to Jesus coming and the return of Jesus involves the final step in the establishment of the Kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven.
A very basic set of verses...
Matthew 16
28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Sure I know, it's the transfiguration, but is also this.
They will SEE the Son of Man come in His Kingdom. What did they see? The transfiguration. What is the transfiguration? It is the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Same applies for Mark 9. What did they SEE? They saw the Kingdom of God come with power. It was the same event so the kingdoms are the same.
Only that few men lived to see this event which means everybody else that sees it is dead. Therefore I can't accept the full preteist meaning because we have to be dead to see the kingdom.
I'm not dead yet. Did the people at Thyatira that read that letter or heard of it's contents die?
Justme
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RThibeault
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AliOgg said:
To tell you the truth, We can all theorize whether it is speaking of one church or seven. But no one really can say. All I can say for sure is that those messages given to the seven churches of Revelation are applicable to all Christians and to all churches which propose to be Christian churches today. (i.e. the teachings of Faithfulness unto death)
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Hi RThibeault,
Good, now what did Rev 2:25 say to the people who received the letter?
Juastme
Good, now what did Rev 2:25 say to the people who received the letter?
Juastme
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RThibeault
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Justme said:
"plan ho exete kratesate axri hou an echo" translated in the NIV as,
"Only hold on to what you have until I come." Meaning What as far as this question is concerned?
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Hi RThibeault
That is definately what this is about.
Some people in Thyatira had fallen under the influence of Jezubel. Some had pleased Jesus in how they were as it says here.
Rev 2
24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets
Jesus wants those people to :
25Only hold on to what you have until I come.
The bottom line ...can this verse be fit into a futurist doctrine? If it can't futurism has a stumbling block. So far I haven't seen a good answer.
Can a partial preterist live with this verse as written? Maybe one of them will clear that up for us.
Justme
That is definately what this is about.
Some people in Thyatira had fallen under the influence of Jezubel. Some had pleased Jesus in how they were as it says here.
Rev 2
24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets
Jesus wants those people to :
25Only hold on to what you have until I come.
The bottom line ...can this verse be fit into a futurist doctrine? If it can't futurism has a stumbling block. So far I haven't seen a good answer.
Can a partial preterist live with this verse as written? Maybe one of them will clear that up for us.
Justme
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Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Justme said:
Greetings Justme,
I thought you were gone?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus...
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna...
Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos...
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira...
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis...
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia...
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans...
Now this word "angel" in the Greek is "aggelos", which when interpreted can mean "messenger", but in most cases is in reference to angels. Here is the purpose of angels:
Hebrews 1:13-14 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
These "angels" did NOT die off as did the people in the churches. So we can see the message to the churches extends BEYOND just the eartly churches, because it was addressed to THEIR angels OR spirits, as is revealed in Hebrews. So for the FUTURIST the application holds WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND AND USE SCRIPTURE TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Thanks my friends, can anyone tell me what Thyatira means, is it a greek word?
And God Bless All His Peoples.
And God Bless All His Peoples.
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thaiv said:
Thanks my friend, unceasing eh, must be there somewhere then, if not there then where?
Wow wait a minute, do you know the meanings of the names of the other 6 churches?
And God Bless All His Peoples.
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
church...means assembly
church is were 3 or more believers come together
the seven churchs in Revelations
1. ephesus.... left thy first love ... needs to John 13:34-35
2. Smyrna... say they are Jews and are not.... Not living under grace but law
3. pergamos.. Satan sitting throne and dwelleth ...teaching lawlessness..vs 14..... 1 cor 7:20-24, 2 cor 2:11
4. Thyatira... which calleth herself a prophetess[ignoring 1 tim 3:2..ect] she had to purpose new revelation to do this...not biblical...needs eph 5:5,1 tim 6:6
5. Sardis... and art dead[spiritually] need the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4
6. philadephia ... little church ..has kept my word and has not denied my name ..but they have people that claim to be jews when they are not.
7. Laodicea ..religious church you say I am [physically] rich and need nothing...and knowest not that thou art wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked [spiritually]
need the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4
church is were 3 or more believers come together
the seven churchs in Revelations
1. ephesus.... left thy first love ... needs to John 13:34-35
2. Smyrna... say they are Jews and are not.... Not living under grace but law
3. pergamos.. Satan sitting throne and dwelleth ...teaching lawlessness..vs 14..... 1 cor 7:20-24, 2 cor 2:11
4. Thyatira... which calleth herself a prophetess[ignoring 1 tim 3:2..ect] she had to purpose new revelation to do this...not biblical...needs eph 5:5,1 tim 6:6
5. Sardis... and art dead[spiritually] need the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4
6. philadephia ... little church ..has kept my word and has not denied my name ..but they have people that claim to be jews when they are not.
7. Laodicea ..religious church you say I am [physically] rich and need nothing...and knowest not that thou art wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked [spiritually]
need the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4
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