69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince

[ivebeenshown]

SUBJECT:​

This thread is to provide a basis for the future 70th week of Daniel -- that is, the full 'seven' as a future period of time. Sir Isaac Newton has stated that the perception of the seventieth week of Daniel is the most critical component to one's eschatological views. (Don't quote me on that, look him up and see his exact words.)

Foundation of the study:​

The 'seventy weeks' prophecy is from Daniel 9.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

Here are some key points:
- 1. From the commandment to restore the city is when the timer starts.
- 2. When that timer has started, there are 69 'weeks'.
- 3. The 'weeks' are understood as 7-year periods.
- 4. The total period of 69 'weeks' is interpreted as either:
a. 483 solar years, or
b. 483 years of 360 days each, equivalent to 476 solar years.
- 5. Messiah the Prince is said to come at the end of these 69 'weeks,'
and be cut off afterwards.
- 6. There is some controversy in identifying the 'he' in verse 27, so for
now we should ignore it and focus on the 69 week fulfillment.

So our goal is to first determine when the commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem is, and count out from that point to find the end of the 69 weeks. Secondly, we have to identify what happened when those 69 weeks came to an end. We already know that Messiah is cut off after that period, though it does not say how much after.

FIRST GOAL:
THE COMMANDMENT TO REBUILD THE CITY​

In Nehemiah 1, we see Nehemiah is sad, and praying for the city of Jerusalem.

1The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace, 2That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. 3And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire.
​

So what we can see is that in the twentieth year of something, particularly the month Chisleu (which is November/December), Nehemiah receives word that Jerusalem is in an afflicted state and the walls and gates are broken down. Nehemiah proceeds to pray for the rest of the chapter. Chapter 2 contains more information.

1And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence. 2Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid, 3And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
​

Here we can see that Nehemiah states clearly: the city of Jerusalem lies waste. It is in a state of desolation. What we can also see is that the twentieth year referred to in chapter 1 is the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king. This time, the month is Nisan (March/April.) Artaxerxes began his reign in the year 465 BC. His first regnal year would have then included the November/December of 465BC, and the March/April of 464BC. His twentieth year then includes Chisleu 445BC and Nisan 444BC. There is more information in chapter 2.

4Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. 6And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. 7Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah; 8And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me. 9Then I came to the governors beyond the river, and gave them the king's letters. Now the king had sent captains of the army and horsemen with me.
​

So in the month of Nisan 444BC, Nehemiah is given decrees (letters) from Artaxerxes to build the city of Jerusalem.

SECOND GOAL:
THE END OF THE 69 WEEKS​

Now that we have our starting date, or rather, starting month and year of Nisan 444BC, we can use it to determine when the 69 weeks end. If we are to assume they are 483 solar years, we wind up at 40AD. This is incorrect and out of league for when Jesus was on earth.

If we convert the 483 years into days using the '360-day-a-year' approach, we get 173880 days. This converts into about 476 solar years. When we go 476 years forward from 444BC, ( -444 + 476 ) + ( +1 for crossing forward over the BC/AD line ) we get Nisan 33AD.

What happened at that time? On 14 Nisan, 33AD, our Lord was crucified. Days before that, on 'Palm Sunday', he entered into Jerusalem, riding on an ass, instructing his disciples to exalt him as KING. This was the first time he encouraged such exaltation, in order to fulfill Zechariah 9:9. This is known as the 'triumphal entry', and it is when he came unto Jerusalem as KING -- Messiah the PRINCE.

Days later he was cut off, but not for himself -- for US!

This leaves the 70th week to be fulfilled at a future time.

OTHER INFORMATION:​

In the book of Luke, chapter 3, we receive two pieces of key information.

1Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, 2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; 4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
​

John the Baptist began his ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar. Augustus died in 14AD, and on September 18 of that year, a convention was held to authorize the official status of 'princeps' or RULER for Tiberius Caesar. The first year of his reign was then September of 14AD through September of 15AD.

This means the fifteenth year of his reign was September of 28AD through September of 29AD.

21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
​

Here Luke tells us that Jesus began to be 'about thirthy years of age' at the time he was baptized. Levite priests had a range of 30 to 50 years of age to do temple services. Jesus was surely the minimum age to begin, and it only makes sense that his impeccable prophetic timing would have him turning thirty the day he became baptized. Jesus' birthday is figured to be September/October, or the month Tishrei.

It does not say Jesus began to be thirty in the fifteenth year of Tiberius, only that John began his ministry in that year. We are not told the exact amount of time between the start of John's ministry and that of Jesus, but if the impeccable prophetic timing has anything to do with it, they were most likely the same difference apart in time as they had been conceived and birthed.

This allows for John to begin in the fifteenth year of Tiberius and later baptize Jesus when he is thirthy in the month Tishrei of 29AD, and then Jesus begins a three and a half year ministry in Tishrei of 29AD which ends in Nisan of 33AD.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Shameless bump before this goes off the page. I studied pretty deeply on this one!

If I could at least have some others' insight as to when they think the 69 weeks began, when it ended, and what years Christ was born, and baptized, and killed, then I could expand a little bit and try to fit everything together...

 

[visionary]

Yep the 70th week is future... I think that it also is rooted in the same prophectic start factors..

Here are some key points:
- 1. From the commandment to restore the city is when the timer starts

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yep the 70th week is future... I think that it also is rooted in the same prophectic start factors..

So you agree with a birth in month Tishrei 2BC, baptising in month Tishrei 29AD, and the death in Nisan 33AD?

I'm interesting in building more studies here, especially if I could get Jen to comment. I used to think the baptising of Christ was the "unto Messiah the Prince" but after mapping out the 69 weeks... there's no way in my mind it could be.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

You have done a lot of work here. Jesus death in 33 AD has always been my understanding as well.

Has the 70th week started in your opinion?

 

[ivebeenshown]

You have done a lot of work here. Jesus death in 33 AD has always been my understanding as well.

Has the 70th week started in your opinion?

To be honest I had some help. When I first get an idea I have to confirm it with other studies and piece everything together progressively.

No, I don't think it has begun. Following the 360 days a year scheme as the other 69 weeks, it gives us:

1260 days of the 'two witnesses'
and when they finish their testimony...
the beast ascends from the sea
and is given 42 months.

A full 2520 days, or 7 years of 360 days. This is just my observation, though I do strongly feel that must be the timeline for the 70th week if it is a future week.

 

[visionary]

So you agree with a birth in month Tishrei 2BC, baptising in month Tishrei 29AD, and the death in Nisan 33AD?

I'm interesting in building more studies here, especially if I could get Jen to comment. I used to think the baptising of Christ was the "unto Messiah the Prince" but after mapping out the 69 weeks... there's no way in my mind it could be.

Yes... I think that Tishrei and Nissan are both accurate.

In the same manner that the first coming tied in with the spring feasts.. so also I believe that the fall feasts will also be fulfilled by the Lord's second coming.

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Ivebeenshown, do you realize that you have to reconcile the Jewish 360-day years with a "pregnant" year every so often. There is an extra month added in to Jewish years every so often to make up for the difference between 360 and 365 day years.

Keep in mind too that 69 week of years pass until Messiah the Prince - meaning he is on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week and cut off mid-70th week. That would mean that it was his baptism and death that is involved in the 70th week.

Christ confirmed the covenant with many of Israel before he was cut off and will do so again when he returns. Christ is the one that fulfills the 70 weeks for Israel and Jerusalem.

There is, therefore, only 1/2 a week of years left for Israel/Jerusalem, through Jesus, to fulfill what the angel said has to be fulfilled by those 70 weeks.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Ivebeenshown, do you realize that you have to reconcile the Jewish 360-day years with a "pregnant" year every so often. There is an extra month added in to Jewish years every so often to make up for the difference between 360 and 365 day years.

Keep in mind too that 69 week of years pass until Messiah the Prince - meaning he is on the scene at the beginning of the 70th week and cut off mid-70th week. That would mean that it was his baptism and death that is involved in the 70th week.

Christ confirmed the covenant with many of Israel before he was cut off and will do so again when he returns. Christ is the one that fulfills the 70 weeks for Israel and Jerusalem.

There is, therefore, only 1/2 a week of years left for Israel/Jerusalem, through Jesus, to fulfill what the angel said has to be fulfilled by those 70 weeks.

I am more than open to your interpretation of what date the decree to build Jerusalem was... and what date Christ was baptized, and what date he died. I just need lots of evidence, because that's what I have tried to lay out.

The 69 weeks prophecy requires two criteria.

1.) the date of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (to the month, not the day)
2.) the date of either the baptism or triumphal entry (to the month, not the day.)

So if you want to hold out your idea of Christ fulfilling the first half of week 70, that is fine, but you should present evidence for your case... for instance, verse 26 does not state that Messiah is cut off in the 70th week -- only that he is cut off after the 69th week.

 

[John Christian V]

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Isaiah 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Ezra 1:1-3
1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

 

[John Christian V]

Of course, the city and temple were not built during the time of Cyrus. But you also have this:

Ezra 7:7-13, 27
And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.
8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.
10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
27 Blessed be the LORD God of our fathers, which hath put such a thing as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem:

 

[ivebeenshown]

Cyrus could not have fulfilled that prophecy because his reign was far too early (559BC.)

The fifth month is Tishrei, or September/October. His twentieth year would have been 458-457BC, depending on what month his reign began.

If we go by 483 Solar years, 458BC brings us to Tishrei 26AD, for a baptism, and 457BC brings us to Tishrei 27AD for a baptism. These two values give us Nisan 30AD and Nisan 31AD for Christ's death, respectively. Using the 476 Solar year figure does not work out to any plausible dates.

Now we must examine the Nisan of 30AD and the Nisan of 31AD to see if Christ could have died in either of those times.

In 30AD, Nisan 14 (in which the evening at 6PM begins Passover) fell on Wednesday.
In 31AD, Nisan 14 fell on Monday, which is too far off to consider.

 

[visionary]

Jewish Calendar April 0030 - hebcal.com

Nissan 30AD would work for those who like Wednesday cross and death

 

[John Christian V]

Cyrus could not have fulfilled that prophecy because his reign was far too early (559BC.)

The fifth month is Tishrei, or September/October. His twentieth year would have been 458-457BC, depending on what month his reign began.

If we go by 483 Solar years, 458BC brings us to Tishrei 26AD, for a baptism, and 457BC brings us to Tishrei 27AD for a baptism. These two values give us Nisan 30AD and Nisan 31AD for Christ's death, respectively. Using the 476 Solar year figure does not work out to any plausible dates.

Now we must examine the Nisan of 30AD and the Nisan of 31AD to see if Christ could have died in either of those times.

You're right, it couldn't have been from the time of Cyrus. I researched this several years ago, when I stopped believing that the entirety of Daniel's 70th week was in the future, so it's not all fresh in my mind. I understand that you're determined to find a seven year period in the end times. But a seven year, 84 week, or 2520 day period is never mentioned in Revelation, nor in the New Testament period. Do some research on the seventh year of Artaxerxes and 457 B.C., let me know what you find out.

Here's a website I found - The Year 457 B.C. and it's Importance

I'm sure you can find several more.

 

[John Christian V]

Here this might help:

Evaluating the four decrees

Daniel 9:25 says, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

This is an important verse to understand. It is the only prophecy in the Bible which tells us precisely when the Messiah would arrive. It is extremely vital therefore to know exactly when that time period began.

The event to mark the beginning of the seventy weeks is stated to be "the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem." But to which "commandment" does it refer? We have just seen that there were four different decrees, all of which seem quite similar. If we use the wrong starting point, the whole prophecy will be off.

As always, it is essential to pay close attention to the words of the text. We are looking for a command to "restore and to build Jerusalem." The decree of Cyrus, recorded in Ezra 1, gave instruction only for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. It said nothing about restoring the whole city. The decree of Darius, recorded in Ezra 6, was simply his endorsement of the decree of Cyrus. It mentioned only the building of the "house of God." But in the decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, provision is made for the complete restoration of the Jewish state, including the right to appoint magistrates and judges, hold trials, and pass and execute sentence upon violators of their own national laws.

This was clearly understood to be an authorization for the full reestablishment of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation; for shortly after this the enemies of the Jews wrote to the king complaining that "the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations" Ezra 4:12. That the walls had been completely set up was obviously an exaggeration, as verse 13 reveals. Yet this incident shows that for the first time there was actual work being done to rebuild the city. This had not been the case under the previous decrees.

The fourth decree (Nehemiah 2), the wording of which has not been preserved, was simply a reinstatement of Artaxerxes' original authorization, this time naming Nehemiah to take charge of the project.

Considering all the options, the decree which most correctly answers to the specifications of Daniel 9:25 was the decree of Artaxerxes to Ezra, recorded in Ezra chapter 7. We should therefore date the beginning of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 from the time of that command. from http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/457.htm

 

[ivebeenshown]

But a seven year, 84 week, or 2520 day period is never mentioned in Revelation, nor in the New Testament period.

Do some research on the seventh year of Artaxerxes and 457 A.D., let me know what you find out.

Here's a website I found - The Year 457 B.C. and it's Importance

I'm sure you can find several more.

From what I have understood, the 'two witnesses' have 1260 days, and when their testimony is finished the beast that ascends from the pit overcomes and kills them. That beast is given 42 months to continue, for a total seven-year period. Thii confirmed in Daniel 7, where the little horn is given power over the saints for a time, times, and half a time.

24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
​

I suppose the nature and timing of Christ's death and resurrection can determine whether it was 30AD or 33AD -- do note that as I have said, a Monday Nisan 14 provides far too much time for Christ to rise in/on the third day, which is the first day of the week or Sunday.

Day one Monday, day two Tuesday, day three Wednesday.
Monday, Day one Tuesday, Day two Wednesday, Day three Thursday.

Either way we count it, 31AD doesn't work out so Tishrei of 458BC must have been within Artaxerxes' 7th year of reign, unless I am mistaken.

 

[John Christian V]

From what I have understood, the 'two witnesses' have 1260 days, and when their testimony is finished the beast that ascends from the pit overcomes and kills them. That beast is given 42 months to continue, for a total seven-year period.

I suppose the nature and timing of Christ's death and resurrection can determine whether it was 30AD or 33AD -- do note that as I have said, a Monday Nisan 14 provides far too much time for Christ to rise in/on the third day, which is the first day of the week or Sunday.

Day one Monday, day two Tuesday, day three Wednesday.
Monday, Day one Tuesday, Day two Wednesday, Day three Thursday.

Either way we count it, 31AD doesn't work out so Tishrei of 458BC must have been within Artaxerxes' 7th year of reign, unless I am mistaken.

I told you yesterday, I think your reading of Revelation 11:7 is incorrect. It is not telling us that the beast ascends out the bottomless pit at that time, merely identifying him.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

We are also not told how long this war lasts.

But please read the entirety of the article I linked to in my previous post.

The book of Ezra was written in Jerusalem for the Jews. It would be natural that he would use the Jewish method of reckoning in numbering the years. Whereas the Babylonians and Persians began their years in the spring, the Jews counted their civil year as beginning in the fall (See Determining Biblical Dates). This means that Artaxerxes' accession year, according to the Jewish method of reckoning, extended until the fall of 464 B.C., at which time his first year of reign began. His seventh year is thus determined as follows:

Artaxerxes Reign Fall to Fall
First year 464/463 B.C.
Second year 463/462 B.C.
Third year 462/461 B.C.
Fourth year 461/460 B.C.
Fifth year 460/459 B.C.
Sixth year 459/458 B.C.
Seventh year 458/457 B.C.

Therefore, the seventh year of Artaxerxes, according to Jewish reckoning, extended from the fall of 458 to the fall of 457 B.C. from http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/457.htm

 

[ivebeenshown]

We are also not told how long this war lasts.

But please read the entirety of the article I linked to in my previous post.

I see the reckoning as 458/457 and I do believe my point stands that it must have been the Tishrei of 458 to arrive at Tishrei 26AD for a death in Nisan 30AD, because 14 Nisan 31AD was a Monday and doesn't fit the timeframe for a Sunday resurrection.

-458 + 483 = 25, then add one for going forward over the BC/AD line, and you have 26AD.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Shameless bump before this goes off the page. I studied pretty deeply on this one!

If I could at least have some others' insight as to when they think the 69 weeks began, when it ended, and what years Christ was born, and baptized, and killed, then I could expand a little bit and try to fit everything together...

I don't know where the 360 day years come from, but the biblical years, as God gave the earth, according to Enoch and the Essene calendar which they kept which was based on Enoch's, have 364 days, 4 which are intercalary -if that is the way to say it, but added to the year's count.
Jesus was born in 4 BC, and there is no year zero, and he did begin his ministry at age 30, as John also did, because a priest entered into service at age 30, so I have read.
So He was born in 4 BC, at Tabernacles, having been conceived the eve before Channakuh began, and and died in 29 AD, at Passover, being 33 and 1/2 years of age.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I don't know where the 360 day years come from, but the biblical years, as God gave the earth, according to Enoch and the Essene calendar which they kept which was based on Enoch's, have 364 days, 4 which are intercalary -if that is the way to say it, but added to the year's count.
Jesus was born in 4 BC, and there is no year zero, and he did begin his ministry at age 30, as John also did, because a priest entered into service at age 30, so I have read.
So He was born in 4 BC, at Tabernacles, having been conceived the eve before Channakuh began, and and died in 29 AD, at Passover, being 33 and 1/2 years of age.

Tishrei 4BC to Tishrei 29AD is only thirty-two years. You have to render a BC year as a negative number, then add the desired number of years, then add one year. If you go backwards in time, you subtract the number of years from an AD date, then subtract one more year.