6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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Your Deuteronomy32v14 verse is useless in proving your false theology, and in fact does the entire opposite by proving beyond doubt that it is not grape juice

Given the Medieval attitude to wine and beer as an absolute necessity for health, the King James translators never imagined for a moment some charlatan would twist their words to condemn those who drink wine.
The KJV calls it "the pure blood of the grape." A normal person reading that would take it from the context as meaning rich top grade wine, but you have an agenda to put people under a legalistic guilt trip.
Here is what Strong's concordance has to say regarding the KJV word "pure".
2561. chemer
Strong's Concordance
chemer: wine
Original Word: חָ֫מֶר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: chemer
Phonetic Spelling: (kheh'-mer)
Short Definition: wine
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from chamar
Definition

wine
NASB Translation
Wine
(In the above you can see that the word originates from Chamar, (Strong's 2560) which is not a noun like wine, but a verb referring to a process.)
chamar: daub
Original Word: חָמַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chamar
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-mar')
Short Definition: daub


That verb Chamar is then explained further here-
Short Definition: daub
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. חָמַר verb ferment, boil or foam up (Arabic
bdb033003.gif
ferment, leaven,
bdb033004.gif
,
bdb033005.gif
noun leaven; see LagBN 207); —


Qal Perfect3masculine singular ׳וְיַיִן ח Psalm 75:9 and wine which foams, (others from IV. חמר be red); 3 plural חָֽמְרוּ is suggested by We as possible Habakkuk 3:15 (for ᵑ0 חֹמֶר q. v.) the great waters foamed; Imperfect3masculine plural יֶחֱמוּ יֶחְמְרוּ מֵימָיו Psalm 46:4 let its water roar and foam.

Pe`al`al Perfect passive3plural מֵעַי חֳמַרְמָ֑רוּ Lamentations 1:20 my bowels are in a ferment ("" נֶהְמַּךְ לִבִּי), of distressat calamities of Jerusalem; so חֳמַרְמְרוּ מֵעַי Lamentations 2:11. — Job 16:16 see IV. חמר.

II. [חָמַר] verb denominative cover or smear with asphalt, only

Qal Imperfect3feminine singular suffix וַתַּחְמְרָה Exodus 2:3 (E); on form of suffix see Ges§ 58, 3, R, 1.

There can be no room for doubt that Deuteronomy 32v14 refers purely to fermented alcoholic wine. It cannot refer to grape juice.


This conclusion is utterly false.
You are deliberately leading people into spiritual deception based on false use of scripture again and again.

In Webster's Dictonary 1913 it refers to saying that it is any liquid substance such as water, milk, blood, sap, or juice, etc.

Source:
Liquor | Definition of Liquor by Webster's Online Dictionary

Also, see "wine" within this dictionary, as well.

Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

For it is not what you think it is entirely.

Anyways, pure blood of the grape is obvious. It is not pure if it is fermented. If it is pure blood of the grape then it is clearly grape juice. This is supported in the fact, that Deuteronomy 29:6 says that the Israelites did not drink wine and strong drink (Which is different than the pure blood of the grape).
 
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"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." (Psalms 51:4).

All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17)

Jason, I have no idea what you are talking about. Scripture is fine, but no idea what it's related to.

You did that in your last post while only say something like any evil is bad and I had no idea what evil you were referring to...still don't.

What "unrighteousness"?
 
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But with alcohol, it is an addictive drug, and a study actually shows that it slightly damages the brain even with moderate use. Sure, it may not seem major or noticeable for most people, but that is just the thing. Why allow for it to damage oneself at all? For again, if you put alcohol in a glass and then put a dirty penny in it, the alcohol cleans the penny. If you put a piece of meat in there, it dries out the meat. Now, the alcohol does not know the difference between being inside your body vs. outside of your body. It seeks to destroy. Why do you think most alcohol does not have nutrition labels on them? Because they offer no nutritiion.

This is a very good and informative post, Jason.

Thank you.
 
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Not really. Jesus only obeyed what Torah said to obey, and there are no laws against alcohol in torah.

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

You said:
In fact, for sukkot, god allows us to buy for ourselves strong drink during the 7 day celebration.
Deuteronomy 14:26

It is talking about the purchase of wine and strong drink and not the consumption of it.

“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,” (Deuteronomy 14:26).

This is important to understand because the Israelites used to dilute the wine they purchased and stored.

This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 NIV
“Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.”​

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine (for the times).

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.​

You said:
So, right off the bat, if what you're saying is true, that means God Himself is in sin for telling us to buy for ourselves strong drink. Which in the hebrew, is שֵׁכָר which literally means intoxicating drink.

If you were to keep reading, God says,

“Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.” (Deuteronomy 29:6).

You said:
Now, Jesus is our Priest, and He's with the father right now in the tabernacle.

Where am I going with this?

Jesus said that He wouldn't drink of the cup He did when He and the disciples ate bread for His body, and drank wine for His blood. He said, He wouldn't drink of it until He came back. But, as I said, He's our Priest.

What's my point? Because, according to Torah, the priests when they're in the tabernacle before God (just as Jesus is right now) couldn't drink wine, or else they'd be destroyed before Him. So, I believe that Jesus said He wouldn't drink until after He returned, because He was talking about wine, and since He was going to be standing before God, had He been drinking wine, according to Torah, He'd be destroyed.

Here's the Torah command to the Levitical Priests, the sons of Aaron -

Leviticus 10:9 - Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Here is Jesus saying He wouldn't drink of it until He returned (which once He returns He'll no longer be a Priest, we will be priests, He will be King.

Matthew 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

If anything it shows abstinence. We are to imitate Christ according to Scripture. So if anything, this works against you and not for you. Especially when the “fruit of the vine” is natural fresh fruit juice and not a fermented beverage.

You said:
This one, is taken way out of context.

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

The underlined is what you linked, the bold is what you left out. This is referring to getting someone drunk to have sex with them, as Torah describes that the meaning of "looking on" or "uncovering" someone's nakedness, is referring to having sex with them. Either willingly or unwillingly. In this case, since it means to get them drunk to do so, it's probably not willing intercourse.

Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink. Comma. End of thought. The next words are an extension of what to not do further. They are by no means only if you plan to plan to have sex with them alone. Scripture says to the Israelite not look upon wine when it is red in the cup. Meaning, when wine is undiluted with water.

You said:
He's not a King right now, He's our Priest, atoning for our sins. He will be King when He returns. Although, I'd like to point out, that this isn't a command. It's advice. No where in Torah (where the rules we're to follow come from) does it state this, and if it were true, that means Jesus says He will sin when He returns in Matthew 26:29:

Matthew 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Not true. Jesus is a king now.

“Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.” (Acts of the Apostles 17:7).
 
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Francis Drake

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Readers, please take note of the fraudulent methodology being exposed here.
The word "wine" in an older dictionary says this:

1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

So the definition says, the juice of grapes, (comma) (which stops the thought). It then continues to say: Especially when fermented.

It says a beverage OR liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

Usually. But usually is not always the case.
To deceive people, Jason has deliberately deleted the original number 1 entry (which clearly states that wine is fermented), and also the number 2 entry of websters dictionary, putting the 3rd entry as a new number 1.
Jason then picks on a simple comma to ram it down our throats as grape juice.

A simple look at the real Webster's online page will show this is completely fraudulent of Jason.

The full, unadulterated version of websters-online-dictionary is pasted below. As readers can clearly see, removing numbers 1 and 2 completely twists what Webster was aiming at.

Webster's online dictionary.-
1. Fermented juice (of grapes especially).
2. A red as dark as red wine.
3. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.[Websters]
4. A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to that for grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.[Websters]
5. The effect of drinking wine in excess; intoxication.[Websters].
In my mind, creating half truths and deliberate deception in order to persuade people, is a very underhand and ungodly method.

If you need to act like this to gain your adherents, then shame on you, and shame on your followers for being so gullible.


 
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Readers, please take note of the fraudulent methodology being exposed here.

To deceive people, Jason has deliberately deleted the original number 1 entry (which clearly states that wine is fermented), and also the number 2 entry of websters dictionary, putting the 3rd entry as a new number 1.
Jason then picks on a simple comma to ram it down our throats as grape juice.

A simple look at the real Webster's online page will show this is completely fraudulent of Jason.

The full, unadulterated version of websters-online-dictionary is pasted below. As readers can clearly see, removing numbers 1 and 2 completely twists what Webster was aiming at.


In my mind, creating half truths and deliberate deception in order to persuade people, is a very underhand and ungodly method.

If you need to act like this to gain your adherents, then shame on you, and shame on your followers for being so gullible.

No. It is not a deception and neither is it fraudulent on my part. Everyone can see what this definition says for themselves. You are merely not reading the definition correctly because you are biased towards alcohol.

Again, it says,

Wine:

1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

The red words above talk about what it is at the heart; And the words in blue is extended information.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

My suggestion is to get a few grammar teachers and dictionary specificalists to tell you what this first definition says if you don’t believe me in what it says plainly.
 
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Readers, please take note of the fraudulent methodology being exposed here.

To deceive people, Jason has deliberately deleted the original number 1 entry (which clearly states that wine is fermented), and also the number 2 entry of websters dictionary, putting the 3rd entry as a new number 1.
Jason then picks on a simple comma to ram it down our throats as grape juice.

A simple look at the real Webster's online page will show this is completely fraudulent of Jason.

The full, unadulterated version of websters-online-dictionary is pasted below. As readers can clearly see, removing numbers 1 and 2 completely twists what Webster was aiming at.


In my mind, creating half truths and deliberate deception in order to persuade people, is a very underhand and ungodly method.

If you need to act like this to gain your adherents, then shame on you, and shame on your followers for being so gullible.

It is like the word “chicken.”

Chicken:
n.
1.
A young bird or fowl, esp. a young barnyard fowl.

Source:
Chicken | Definition of Chicken by Webster's Online Dictionary

Surely you do not think all chickens are barnyard fowls, do you?

The letters “esp” means “especially.”
But it is not limited only to that thing.

Now, go back to the definition of wine at this same website and read “definition 1” again.
 
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Tutorman

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Readers, please take note of the fraudulent methodology being exposed here.

To deceive people, Jason has deliberately deleted the original number 1 entry (which clearly states that wine is fermented), and also the number 2 entry of websters dictionary, putting the 3rd entry as a new number 1.
Jason then picks on a simple comma to ram it down our throats as grape juice.

A simple look at the real Webster's online page will show this is completely fraudulent of Jason.

The full, unadulterated version of websters-online-dictionary is pasted below. As readers can clearly see, removing numbers 1 and 2 completely twists what Webster was aiming at.


In my mind, creating half truths and deliberate deception in order to persuade people, is a very underhand and ungodly method.

If you need to act like this to gain your adherents, then shame on you, and shame on your followers for being so gullible.

The whole OP is a fraud
 
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He might of been "aggressive" in his post but he is not wrong. The OP has no idea what he is talking about and his ideas are damaging to those easily swayed. This OP wants to bind other souls because he believes lies and I believe that the OP's ideas come from Satan.

Actually, what he said was inappropriate because he is breaking Scripture by not speaking with grace seasoned with salt and he is breaking forum rules (just as you are doing), my friend, as well.
 
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Readers, please take note of the fraudulent methodology being exposed here.

To deceive people, Jason has deliberately deleted the original number 1 entry (which clearly states that wine is fermented), and also the number 2 entry of websters dictionary, putting the 3rd entry as a new number 1.
Jason then picks on a simple comma to ram it down our throats as grape juice.

A simple look at the real Webster's online page will show this is completely fraudulent of Jason.

The full, unadulterated version of websters-online-dictionary is pasted below. As readers can clearly see, removing numbers 1 and 2 completely twists what Webster was aiming at.


In my mind, creating half truths and deliberate deception in order to persuade people, is a very underhand and ungodly method.

If you need to act like this to gain your adherents, then shame on you, and shame on your followers for being so gullible.

Please take note that the Webster's Dictionary I was referring to was the 1913 Webster's Dictionary. If you were to click on the link within my posts, you would see that, my friend.
 
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Tutorman

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Actually, what he said was inappropriate because he is breaking Scripture by not speaking with grace seasoned with salt and he is breaking forum rules (just as you are doing), my friend, as well.

Actually I am not I am very careful to talk about your ideas not you and that is fine. Your ideas are pure evil and can split Christians which is exactly what Satan loves. I don't know you but I have seen your ideas and they have no basis in history or reality, in fact you can not even cite any historical sources from the Early Church Fathers that Christ did not make wine or that people did not drink wine. You have no historical sources collaborating your ideas at all. No one should take your ideas seriously until such time that you can show without a doubt that your ideas are historical to the ancient times.

I am sure you are sincere in your ideas but your ideas sincerely wrong.
 
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What evil are you talking about?

I was referring to the fact that drunkenness one time is considered a sin to God.
We know this because there are other examples of people just committing just one sin with God condemning them for it. Adam and Eve, Simon, Ananais, and Sapphira.

It doesn't take lots of sin for God to condemn a person.

For you said, I quote:

"FWIW, I don't think drunkenness in itself is a sin. Being a "drunkard", a perpetual user (committing perpetual sin) is." ~ Kenny's ID.
 
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Actually I am not I am very careful to talk about your ideas not you and that is fine. Your ideas are pure evil and can split Christians which is exactly what Satan loves. I don't know you but I have seen your ideas and they have no basis in history or reality, in fact you can not even cite any historical sources from the Early Church Fathers that Christ did not make wine or that people did not drink wine. You have no historical sources collaborating your ideas at all. No one should take your ideas seriously until such time that you can show without a doubt that your ideas are historical to the ancient times.

I am sure you are sincere in your ideas but your ideas sincerely wrong.

Saying they are "My ideas" makes it personal. My beliefs are not exclusive to me alone but other Christians share them, as well. So instead of condemning me personally by saying that "my ideas come from Satan", please refer to making your case with Scripture instead of making it personal by saying "MY ideas." (as if I invented them alone - when I did not). The Word of God and historical documents confirm what I say. If you disagree, then stick to Scripture to make your case instead of baseless accusations.

You are breaking forum rules by saying my ideas come from Satan. We disagree with Scripture. You can say that and then make your case with Scripture. Also, how is your words in line with Scripture that says, "speak full of grace seasoned with salt"?
 
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Tutorman

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Saying they are "My ideas" makes it personal. My beliefs are not exclusive to me alone but other Christians share them, as well. So instead of condemning me by making it personally "my ideas that come from Satan", please refer to making your case with Scripture instead of making it personal by saying "MY ideas." (as if I invented them alone - when I did not). The Word of God and historical documents confirm what I say. If you disagree, then stick to Scripture to make your case instead of baseless accusations.

Actually it's not making it personal. You started the OP did you not? If you did than they are you ideas and not anyone else. As far as Scripture they do not confirm what you say when taken in context (which you have not done pulling a verse here and there is not using Scripture in context but putting your (general you not personal you) ideas on Scripture) and the Word of God made water into real wine not some fake thing. You have no historical documentation from ancient sources for your ideas in fact your ideas presented here only go back to early prohibition era America.

Anyone can make Scripture say what they want as evidenced in the OP but those kind of ideas fail when held up to the fact that there are no ancient historical sources that collaborate such absurd notions like the ideas of the OP.
 
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Actually it's not making it personal. You started the OP did you not? If you did than they are you ideas and not anyone else. As far as Scripture they do not confirm what you say when taken in context (which you have not done pulling a verse here and there is not using Scripture in context but putting your (general you not personal you) ideas on Scripture) and the Word of God made water into real wine not some fake thing. You have no historical documentation from ancient sources for your ideas in fact your ideas presented here only go back to early prohibition era America.

Anyone can make Scripture say what they want as evidenced in the OP but those kind of ideas fail when held up to the fact that there are no ancient historical sources that collaborate such absurd notions like the ideas of the OP.

It doesn’t matter. It is still breaking forum rules.
 
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Tutorman

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It doesn’t matter. It is still breaking forum rules.

As with your OP you can say it all you like but it doesn't make it true. I have not attacked you which is against forum rules but I have attacked your ideas which is not against forum rules and all you can come back with the above? Can you not even defend your views from ancient history?
 
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