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6,000 Years?

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Jerry N.

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I’m new to this thread and haven’t read everything. However, I have heard and read several times that בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית can be translated as “In a beginning.” Lately, I watch a presentation by Randall Carlson who claims that we might be the seventh “rebirth” of human civilization since the world began. The other six were destroyed by cataclysmic events. I have no doubt that the genealogies of the Bible are correct. Could previous biospheres with humans existed before Adam and Eve that have left little or no trace?
 
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tampasteve

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I’m new to this thread and haven’t read everything. However, I have heard and read several times that בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית can be translated as “In a beginning.” Lately, I watch a presentation by Randall Carlson who claims that we might be the seventh “rebirth” of human civilization since the world began. The other six were destroyed by cataclysmic events. I have no doubt that the genealogies of the Bible are correct. Could previous biospheres with humans existed before Adam and Eve that have left little or no trace?
I am not super versed in YEC thought, so take my point of view with a load of salt! However, I would say no, that is not likely. The scripture are clear about the creation of the Universe. So, if it were a cataclysmic event it would have had to destroy everything - every atom in the universe. If there were previous creations we would have no ability to detect them.
 
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Job 33:6

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I’m new to this thread and haven’t read everything. However, I have heard and read several times that בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית can be translated as “In a beginning.” Lately, I watch a presentation by Randall Carlson who claims that we might be the seventh “rebirth” of human civilization since the world began. The other six were destroyed by cataclysmic events. I have no doubt that the genealogies of the Bible are correct. Could previous biospheres with humans existed before Adam and Eve that have left little or no trace?
The indefinite translation of Genesis 1:1 does not require prior creations. It simply suspends the question of how long heaven and earth were present before God began creating (giving form to that which was formless).

And you can consider translations such as the following:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE

[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

When God began to create, the earth was [already] formless and empty.

That's all. It need not require some prehistoric creation.
 
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Jerry N.

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I am not super versed in YEC thought, so take my point of view with a load of salt! However, I would say no, that is not likely. The scripture are clear about the creation of the Universe. So, if it were a cataclysmic event it would have had to destroy everything - every atom in the universe. If there were previous creations we would have no ability to detect them.
I understand your point, and it also addresses the possibility of a gap between the first and second chapters of Genesis. I was just trying to see if there was a possibility that the line of Adam was 6000 years old, but other humans were here before, without saying the Bible account was wrong or mythical.
The indefinite translation of Genesis 1:1 does not require prior creations. It simply suspends the question of how long heaven and earth were present before God began creating (giving form to that which was formless).

And you can consider translations such as the following:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE

[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

When God began to create, the earth was [already] formless and empty.

That's all. It need not require some prehistoric creation.
Thanks.
 
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Job 33:6

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I understand your point, and it also addresses the possibility of a gap between the first and second chapters of Genesis.

Yes. Well gap theory has been around for some time.
I was just trying to see if there was a possibility that the line of Adam was 6000 years old, but other humans were here before, without saying the Bible account was wrong or mythical.

Thanks.
Oh yes. Well you could just observe that Genesis chapter 1 never mentions Adam and Eve. So it's quite easy to argue for that possibility of other people before them.

Have you watched lectures by John Walton on the lost world of Adam and Eve?
 
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tampasteve

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I understand your point, and it also addresses the possibility of a gap between the first and second chapters of Genesis. I was just trying to see if there was a possibility that the line of Adam was 6000 years old, but other humans were here before, without saying the Bible account was wrong or mythical.
I have struggled with the idea of how old humans are until pretty recently. Much of the "evidence" for archaic or old species of Homo are greatly exaggerated by scientists. Answers in Genesis has a pretty good article about it here: AiG Article
 
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Jerry N.

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Yes. Well gap theory has been around for some time.

Oh yes. Well you could just observe that Genesis chapter 1 never mentions Adam and Eve. So it's quite easy to argue for that possibility of other people before them.

Have you watched lectures by John Walton on the lost world of Adam and Eve?
I haven't watched it, but I will this evening. Thanks.
 
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Jerry N.

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I have struggled with the idea of how old humans are until pretty recently. Much of the "evidence" for archaic or old species of Homo are greatly exaggerated by scientists. Answers in Genesis has a pretty good article about it here: AiG Article
Great article. I just read it. Are these “archaic humans” the ones Cain was worried about?
 
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tampasteve

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Great article. I just read it. Are these “archaic humans” the ones Cain was worried about?
I don't think so, mostly the other man-like creatures around at the time would have been apes, even if they were bipedal. I believe the people that he was afraid of would have been his relatives by birth - brothers, sisters, nephews, etc.
 
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Job 33:6

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I have struggled with the idea of how old humans are until pretty recently. Much of the "evidence" for archaic or old species of Homo are greatly exaggerated by scientists. Answers in Genesis has a pretty good article about it here: AiG Article
Answers in Genesis is terribly unreliable in both matters of science, as well as Bible:



And nobody is exaggerating the age of the earth. It simply is ancient.
 
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tampasteve

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Answers in Genesis is terribly unreliable in both matters of science, as well as Bible:
As with everything, one must be judicious and weight the evidence we are reading.
And nobody is exaggerating the age of the earth.
I wasn't talking about the age of the Earth, I was talking about evidence of alleged "archaic" Homo species being exaggerated.
It simply is ancient.
And that's debatable from a Christian perspective.
 
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Valletta

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Lord Jesus spoke that "hard saying" because they first hardened their hearts toward him. However, before he said "John 6:53-58," Lord Jesus previously plainly revealed to them how they may have eternal life - which they would not accept - as follows:

John 6:32-47 (WEB)
32 Jesus therefore said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn’t Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34 They said therefore to him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36

But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe.
37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down out of heaven.” 42 They said, “Isn’t this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does he say, ‘I have come down out of heaven?’”

43 Therefore Jesus answered them, “Don’t murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ [Isaiah 54:13] Therefore everyone who hears from the Father and has learned, comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father. 47 Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.

Notice that, to these hard-hearted Jews who refused to believe what he stated, he made this hard saying to condemn them in "John 6:53-58."

If Lord Jesus had truly meant that we have to drink his blood and eat his flesh to have eternal life, then such would be taught all through the New Testament. But that is not what is taught. Rather, the Gospel is all about coming to Lord Jesus and believing in Him as Lord and Savior to be possess eternal life just as Lord Jesus plainly taught in "John 6:32-47."

John 6:35 (WEB)
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

How do we possess Eternal Life, according to the Gospel?

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but may have eternal life.

John 3:36 (WEB) 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Either eternal life is by eating drinking his blood and eating his flesh to have eternal life

OR

Eternal life is by hearing the Gospel and believing in Lord Jesus.

The New Testament bears testimony throughout that it is by hearing the Gospel and believing in Lord Jesus that we possess Eternal Life.

Acts 20:20-21 … 20 I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

You canot benefit spiritually by eating flesh and drinking blood; rather, salvation is by coming to Lord Jesus and believing in him. This is Spiritual.

John 6:63 (WEB) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

The Holy Eucharist is not some symbol:
1 Cor 11:28-30 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.[a] RSVCE

As to John 6, Jesus tells us "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you."

When Jesus is questioned, the Greek word to eat is switched to "trogian," which means to chew, to gnaw, to masticate. That is, to physically eat. "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I'll raise him up at the last day." This Koine Greek form is continued to be used.

Things of the flesh do profit nothing. We are to follow Jesus and do as He commands. That includes "Do this,." meaning the blessing and breaking of bread, His words of consecration, and consuming his true Body and Blood. Jesus speaks plainly and emphatically. "Truly, truly" he tells us. Since eternal life is mentioned elsewhere that in no way negates what Jesus tells us in John 6 nor what is told us by other of the human writers of the New Testament. It is indeed a "hard saying" and was challenged early in the Church. St. Ignatius spoke out:

St. Ignatiues of Antioch, Letter to the Romans 7, 110 A.D.
"I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterward of he seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life."
 
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Frank Robert

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Let review one of those chipped stone tools together - I'm not just gonna take what some archaeologists says...I want to see the data.
I will take the archaeologists wrod over novices, but I am curious so go to it and set it up.
Lets look at one of those chipped stone tools together and see who they extracted an age from it. I"m not going to take their word for it - I want to see what they and how they based it.
I am still curious of how you are going to set this up but go for it.
Does anybody have proof that the earth and the entire universe really is 6,000 - ish years old beyond the usual arguments that science has debunked over and over again? Arguments like the rocks in the Grand Canyon or some other such weak examples? I’m looking for reputable scientists who’ve written peer reviewed papers on the subject and gained the support of other reputable scientists?
 
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Job 33:6

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I wasn't talking about the age of the Earth, I was talking about evidence of alleged "archaic" Homo species being exaggerated.
There really is no difference in the two in terms of the sciences. If the bones are not old, then the layers of the earth in which they are present, are not old either.
 
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Jerry N.

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Yes. Well gap theory has been around for some time.

Oh yes. Well you could just observe that Genesis chapter 1 never mentions Adam and Eve. So it's quite easy to argue for that possibility of other people before them.

Have you watched lectures by John Walton on the lost world of Adam and Eve?
I watched Dr. John Walton, and it is very well done and interesting. The biggest problem I have is that he claims that Adam’s care of Eden is priesthood. That would mean that he was a priest to others in the garden. So, were more people than Adam and Eve sent out of the garden?
 
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Platte

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I will take the archaeologists wrod over novices, but I am curious so go to it and set it up.

I am still curious of how you are going to set this up but go for it.
I haven't seen anything conclusively dated prior to Creation (approx 6000 years ago).
 
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Job 33:6

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I watched Dr. John Walton, and it is very well done and interesting. The biggest problem I have is that he claims that Adam’s care of Eden is priesthood. That would mean that he was a priest to others in the garden. So, were more people than Adam and Eve sent out of the garden?
The priests role, first and foremost is to "work and keep" the sanctuary. It is more of a service to God than it is to people. At least for Adam and Eve as the text indicates that they were kicked out of the garden prior to having any children or prior to interaction with others.
 
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Job 33:6

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I watched Dr. John Walton, and it is very well done and interesting. The biggest problem I have is that he claims that Adam’s care of Eden is priesthood. That would mean that he was a priest to others in the garden. So, were more people than Adam and Eve sent out of the garden?
Here are some, but there are many more, supporting passages that parallel the Tabernacle in particular, and priests of the tabernacle, to Eden or Genesis, and Adam and Eve:

Notice that the tabernacle, much like Genesis 1, is completed in 7 events.

In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14
(Gods resting place is enthroned in His temple, and this is what God does on the 7th day.)

From Exodus and the tabernacle in parallel to Genesis:

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” God saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43

The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).

The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)

-typology-might-say-about-modern-day-israel/

The book of Ezekiel has many parallels, as do 1 kings, among others.

The tabernacle was additionally constructed with artwork of the garden of Eden. As was Solomons temple. Such as luscious palms etched on the walls, the cast metal mirror bowl that retains the sea (like the raqia), sacred space and cherubim guarding the ark of the covenant just like in Genesis etc.
 
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It's also worth noting that, this is part of the reason that the morning stars prideful rebellion against God was so heinous. As similarly observed in Ezekiel.

This supernatural rebellion was of more than a mere snake. But rather, a member of God's divine family among the holy space of Eden. Attempting to usurp Gods temple throne.

You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[a] emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;[c] you were on the holy mountain of God;

A rebellion that occured within sacred space. God's holy temple.


Isaiah 14:12-19 NRSVUE
[12] How you are fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! [13] You said to yourself, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; [14] I will ascend to the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” [15] But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. [16] Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, [17] who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?” [18] All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb, [19] but you are cast out, away from your grave, like loathsome carrion, clothed with the dead, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the Pit like a corpse trampled underfoot.

God's throne guardian. Thrones of course are for kings. Kinds reign from temples. As God is depicted throughout the old testament.

Tsaphon or zaphon, is the meeting place of God's divine council. It's essentially God's temple throne holy space. (See 1 kings 22 or Isaiah 6 for example).
 
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I have struggled with the idea of how old humans are until pretty recently. Much of the "evidence" for archaic or old species of Homo are greatly exaggerated by scientists. Answers in Genesis has a pretty good article about it here: AiG Article
I read that AiG article and I'm curious what you like about it.
 
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