5 reasons babies should be baptized

[patdee]

Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.

If infant baptism; or ANY baptism is necessary to become part of Jesus "Kingdom" (saved), I have a MAJOR problem with the following:

1. When and where did the "thief on the cross" (that accepted Jesus) get baptized in liquid water?

2. A person is on their death bed; and that person dies one second AFTER they surrendered to Jesus; how and where did that person get baptized in liquid water?

3. A baby JUST born dies. When and how can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

4. A soldier in battle accepts Jesus; and instantly a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off (it happens!; when and how would that soldier get baptized in liquid water?

4. A young child accepts Jesus when the preacher gives the altar call; then on the way home that child is hit by a car and is killed (It happens!), how and when can that child get baptized in liquid water?

5. A baby is just born; the parents call for a priest or preacher to baptize their baby, etc; and before the clergyman can get there, the baby dies (it happens!); how and when can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

6. Say you are an atheist at ANY age; but you are touched by watching a Billy Graham TV crusade; and you surrender and cry out to Jesus; but sadly you instantly die of a heart attack (it happens!); when and how can you be baptized in liquid water?

7. When Jesus was preaching to the multitudes on many occasions; and say a few of them died (it happens) BEFORE John the Baptist; or a disciple which had not been chosen yet; could baptize them in liquid water; how and when could they be baptized in liquid water?

8. Paul is preaching in Corinth and several "jews" accept Jesus; but one of them dies BEFORE baptism (it happens) in liquid water can be arranged; how and when can that person be baptized in liquid water?

9. A Pentecostal is dragged down the aisle of his church by his parents to get him "saved"; and the Pentecostal accepts Jesus crying uncontrollably; But the Baptism is not scheduled for 2 weeks hence (common practice in churches ALL over the world); and sadly the Pentecostal dies before the baptismal can take place; how and when can that Pentecostal get baptized in liquid water?

10. Etc, etc, and ETC!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

WHAT is that verse saying? Think about it! What does it really mean? Read that verse again and then ask yourself ALL of the questions above? Think about it. Does Mathew 3:11 answer completely ALL of the questions above? Huh?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What is Jesus really saying? Huh? WHAT was the "water" representing with Jesus' statement; versus the water that would last for "eternal life"? Could it be that Jesus was saying, "ONCE you are baptized by the Holy Spirit that baptizes your soul and circumcises your heart the moment I realizes you will humble yourself and believe in me; "liquid" water baptism becomes superfluous; REGARDLESS of what many in the bible will write"?

Think about it

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

 

[patdee]

Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.

If infant baptism; or ANY baptism is necessary to become part of Jesus "Kingdom" (saved), I have a MAJOR problem with the following:

1. When and where did the "thief on the cross" (that accepted Jesus) get baptized in liquid water?

2. A person is on their death bed; and that person dies one second AFTER they surrendered to Jesus; how and where did that person get baptized in liquid water?

3. A baby JUST born dies. When and how can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

4. A soldier in battle accepts Jesus; and instantly a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off (it happens!; when and how would that soldier get baptized in liquid water?

4. A young child accepts Jesus when the preacher gives the altar call; then on the way home that child is hit by a car and is killed (It happens!), how and when can that child get baptized in liquid water?

5. A baby is just born; the parents call for a priest or preacher to baptize their baby, etc; and before the clergyman can get there, the baby dies (it happens!); how and when can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

6. Say you are an atheist at ANY age; but you are touched by watching a Billy Graham TV crusade; and you surrender and cry out to Jesus; but sadly you instantly die of a heart attack (it happens!); when and how can you be baptized in liquid water?

7. When Jesus was preaching to the multitudes on many occasions; and say a few of them died (it happens) BEFORE John the Baptist; or a disciple which had not been chosen yet; could baptize them in liquid water; how and when could they be baptized in liquid water?

8. Paul is preaching in Corinth and several "jews" accept Jesus; but one of them dies BEFORE baptism (it happens) in liquid water can be arranged; how and when can that person be baptized in liquid water?

9. A Pentecostal is dragged down the aisle of his church by his parents to get him "saved"; and the Pentecostal accepts Jesus crying uncontrollably; But the Baptism is not scheduled for 2 weeks hence (common practice in churches ALL over the world); and sadly the Pentecostal dies before the baptismal can take place; how and when can that Pentecostal get baptized in liquid water?

10. Etc, etc, and ETC!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

WHAT is that verse saying? Think about it! What does it really mean? Read that verse again and then ask yourself ALL of the questions above? Think about it. Does Mathew 3:11 answer completely ALL of the questions above? Huh?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What is Jesus really saying? Huh? WHAT was the "water" representing with Jesus' statement; versus the water that would last for "eternal life"? Could it be that Jesus was saying, "ONCE you are baptized by the Holy Spirit that baptizes your soul and circumcises your heart the moment I realizes you will humble yourself and believe in me; "liquid" water baptism becomes superfluous; REGARDLESS of what many in the bible will write"?

Think about it

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

 

[patdee]

Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.

If infant baptism; or ANY baptism is necessary to become part of Jesus "Kingdom" (saved), I have a MAJOR problem with the following:

1. When and where did the "thief on the cross" (that accepted Jesus) get baptized in liquid water?

2. A person is on their death bed; and that person dies one second AFTER they surrendered to Jesus; how and where did that person get baptized in liquid water?

3. A baby JUST born dies. When and how can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

4. A soldier in battle accepts Jesus; and instantly a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off (it happens!; when and how would that soldier get baptized in liquid water?

4. A young child accepts Jesus when the preacher gives the altar call; then on the way home that child is hit by a car and is killed (It happens!), how and when can that child get baptized in liquid water?

5. A baby is just born; the parents call for a priest or preacher to baptize their baby, etc; and before the clergyman can get there, the baby dies (it happens!); how and when can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

6. Say you are an atheist at ANY age; but you are touched by watching a Billy Graham TV crusade; and you surrender and cry out to Jesus; but sadly you instantly die of a heart attack (it happens!); when and how can you be baptized in liquid water?

7. When Jesus was preaching to the multitudes on many occasions; and say a few of them died (it happens) BEFORE John the Baptist; or a disciple which had not been chosen yet; could baptize them in liquid water; how and when could they be baptized in liquid water?

8. Paul is preaching in Corinth and several "jews" accept Jesus; but one of them dies BEFORE baptism (it happens) in liquid water can be arranged; how and when can that person be baptized in liquid water?

9. A Pentecostal is dragged down the aisle of his church by his parents to get him "saved"; and the Pentecostal accepts Jesus crying uncontrollably; But the Baptism is not scheduled for 2 weeks hence (common practice in churches ALL over the world); and sadly the Pentecostal dies before the baptismal can take place; how and when can that Pentecostal get baptized in liquid water?

10. Etc, etc, and ETC!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

WHAT is that verse saying? Think about it! What does it really mean? Read that verse again and then ask yourself ALL of the questions above? Think about it. Does Mathew 3:11 answer completely ALL of the questions above? Huh?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What is Jesus really saying? Huh? WHAT was the "water" representing with Jesus' statement; versus the water that would last for "eternal life"? Could it be that Jesus was saying, "ONCE you are baptized by the Holy Spirit that baptizes your soul and circumcises your heart the moment I realize you will humble yourself and believe in me; "liquid" water baptism becomes superfluous; REGARDLESS of what many in the bible will write"?

Think about it

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

 

[patdee]

Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.

If infant baptism; or ANY baptism is necessary to become part of Jesus "Kingdom" (saved), I have a MAJOR problem with the following:

1. When and where did the "thief on the cross" (that accepted Jesus) get baptized in liquid water?

2. A person is on their death bed; and that person dies one second AFTER they surrendered to Jesus; how and where did that person get baptized in liquid water?

3. A baby JUST born dies. When and how can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

4. A soldier in battle accepts Jesus; and instantly a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off (it happens!; when and how would that soldier get baptized in liquid water?

4. A young child accepts Jesus when the preacher gives the altar call; then on the way home that child is hit by a car and is killed (It happens!), how and when can that child get baptized in liquid water?

5. A baby is just born; the parents call for a priest or preacher to baptize their baby, etc; and before the clergyman can get there, the baby dies (it happens!); how and when can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

6. Say you are an atheist at ANY age; but you are touched by watching a Billy Graham TV crusade; and you surrender and cry out to Jesus; but sadly you instantly die of a heart attack (it happens!); when and how can you be baptized in liquid water?

7. When Jesus was preaching to the multitudes on many occasions; and say a few of them died (it happens) BEFORE John the Baptist; or a disciple which had not been chosen yet; could baptize them in liquid water; how and when could they be baptized in liquid water?

8. Paul is preaching in Corinth and several "jews" accept Jesus; but one of them dies BEFORE baptism (it happens) in liquid water can be arranged; how and when can that person be baptized in liquid water?

9. A Pentecostal is dragged down the aisle of his church by his parents to get him "saved"; and the Pentecostal accepts Jesus crying uncontrollably; But the Baptism is not scheduled for 2 weeks hence (common practice in churches ALL over the world); and sadly the Pentecostal dies before the baptismal can take place; how and when can that Pentecostal get baptized in liquid water?

10. Etc, etc, and ETC!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

WHAT is that verse saying? Think about it! What does it really mean? Read that verse again and then ask yourself ALL of the questions above? Think about it. Does Mathew 3:11 answer completely ALL of the questions above? Huh?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What is Jesus really saying? Huh? WHAT was the "water" representing with Jesus' statement; versus the water that would last for "eternal life"? Could it be that Jesus was saying, "ONCE you are baptized by the Holy Spirit that baptizes your soul and circumcises your heart the moment I realize you will humble yourself and believe in me; "liquid" water baptism becomes superfluous; REGARDLESS of what many in the bible will write"?

Think about it

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

 

[narnia59]

If infant baptism; or ANY baptism is necessary to become part of Jesus "Kingdom" (saved), I have a MAJOR problem with the following:

1. When and where did the "thief on the cross" (that accepted Jesus) get baptized in liquid water?

2. A person is on their death bed; and that person dies one second AFTER they surrendered to Jesus; how and where did that person get baptized in liquid water?

3. A baby JUST born dies. When and how can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

4. A soldier in battle accepts Jesus; and instantly a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off (it happens!; when and how would that soldier get baptized in liquid water?

4. A young child accepts Jesus when the preacher gives the altar call; then on the way home that child is hit by a car and is killed (It happens!), how and when can that child get baptized in liquid water?

5. A baby is just born; the parents call for a priest or preacher to baptize their baby, etc; and before the clergyman can get there, the baby dies (it happens!); how and when can that baby get baptized in liquid water?

6. Say you are an atheist at ANY age; but you are touched by watching a Billy Graham TV crusade; and you surrender and cry out to Jesus; but sadly you instantly die of a heart attack (it happens!); when and how can you be baptized in liquid water?

7. When Jesus was preaching to the multitudes on many occasions; and say a few of them died (it happens) BEFORE John the Baptist; or a disciple which had not been chosen yet; could baptize them in liquid water; how and when could they be baptized in liquid water?

8. Paul is preaching in Corinth and several "jews" accept Jesus; but one of them dies BEFORE baptism (it happens) in liquid water can be arranged; how and when can that person be baptized in liquid water?

9. A Pentecostal is dragged down the aisle of his church by his parents to get him "saved"; and the Pentecostal accepts Jesus crying uncontrollably; But the Baptism is not scheduled for 2 weeks hence (common practice in churches ALL over the world); and sadly the Pentecostal dies before the baptismal can take place; how and when can that Pentecostal get baptized in liquid water?

10. Etc, etc, and ETC!

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

WHAT is that verse saying? Think about it! What does it really mean? Read that verse again and then ask yourself ALL of the questions above? Think about it. Does Mathew 3:11 answer completely ALL of the questions above? Huh?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What is Jesus really saying? Huh? WHAT was the "water" representing with Jesus' statement; versus the water that would last for "eternal life"? Could it be that Jesus was saying, "ONCE you are baptized by the Holy Spirit that baptizes your soul and circumcises your heart the moment I realizes you will humble yourself and believe in me; "liquid" water baptism becomes superfluous; REGARDLESS of what many in the bible will write"?

Think about it

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

Baptism is a spiritual law established by Christ for salvation.

Spiritual laws operate very much like physical laws. For example, there is a physical law known as gravity. We are bound to the law of gravity. God however, for His own purposes, could choose to set this law aside. The parting of the Red Sea is an example of that.

We however, cannot ignore the law of gravity. For example, it would be extremely foolish for me to jump off a cliff and presume that even though God is capable of setting the law of gravity aside and save me that He would choose to do so.

Likewise, God for His own purposes could set aside the spiritual law of baptism. So in the examples you give, God can certainly decide to save those people without baptism. There is no contradiction in this. We are bound by God’s laws. He is not.

Just as it would be foolish of us to ignore the physical law of gravity and jump off a cliff and presume that God will save us, it would be foolish of us to ignore all the Scriptures that teach that salvation is dependent upon baptism and presume we can ignore them and God will choose to save us. We should respect what the Scripture says in regards to the necessity of baptism for salvation, and trust that in establishing this law God has not constrained Himself in any way.

 

[harkpuff]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.

 

[harkpuff]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.

 

[harkpuff]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.

 

[harkpuff]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.
[

 

[harkpuff]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.
[

 

[narnia59]

The Salvation conversion sequence is Hearing, Believing, Faith, Repentance, and lastly Baptism; all of which requires a level of understanding that an infant is totally incapable of. Infants have no understanding of anything. The ability to reason between right and wrong, and are not capable of making decisions.
In every single example of conversion in the book of Acts and the New Testament it was adult, or at least people who were of a level of maturity that they could reason and understand the salvation process.
To use the verses that read "They and their household was saved" to justify infant Baptism is a stretch when the examples we read of conversion indicate only those who had the ability to reason were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch for example. To use the term me and my household does not necessarily mean literally every single individual in my household. The phrase would still be an accurate phrase if it were only those in my household who were of an age of understanding that were saved. Otherwise, me and my household could also include my dog in some conversations.
Colossians 2:12, and Galatians 3:14 & 26 indicate we come to a saving relationship first through faith. Colosssians 2:12 says having been buried with him in Baptism and raised with Him through YOUR faith in the power of God......indicates that the ability to have faith is a prerequisite to salvation for a persons decision for Christ, of which an infant is incapable of making that kind decision.
For some other adult to make this decision for an infant is not even scriptural because no where does Scripture indicate we will ride into heaven on someone else's shirt tail.
[

God's ability to have a relationship with a person is not prohibited by our intellect. He doesn't have to wait until we're "smart" enough. Sadly, many are denied receiving the gift of faith through baptism and being incorporated into the body of Christ as children because for some reason we believe that infants are incapable of being in relationship with their Father. Then, they have to overcome the roadblocks that their intellect will try to put in the way, so they can receive the kingdom of God like a 'little child' would as God intended in the first place.

The reason that every single conversion we see in the Book of Acts is an adult is that when they were children the Church had not yet begun her mission of evangelization. There were no Christian parents and there were no Christian homes to pass on the faith. By the time the New Testament is being written there are Christian parents and homes. We also never see a child from one of these homes 'making a decision' for Christ. We never see any discussion about an 'age of reason' before they can do so. Why not? Because they were already Christians.

Do we really believe that our children are pagans until they are old enough to decide for themselves that they are Christian? Do we really believe that Christianity is a religion exclusive of children, when Christ holds them up as an example of the ones who easily receive the kingdom of God? That they are the 'model?

I have no clue why people have decided that faith is dependent upon our human intellect instead of God. But I know that what Scripture says about little children and infants, and what you have said here does not align to it.

Fanciful words, or TRUTH from the mouth of Christ?

Matthew 11:25-26 25 At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Matthew 21:15-16 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the amazing things that he did, and heard the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they became angry 16 and said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?” (Psalm 8:2)

Mark 10:13:16 13 People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. 15 Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it.” 16 And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them. (Also Luke 18:15-17)

 

[Ken Rank]

This has always puzzled me concerning the nonsacramental position.
The one place where this concept of symbology and typology is clearly stated in scripture is 1 Peter 3:20,21. (ignoring the theological contortions to dismiss the plain words "nun sOzei baptisma", baptism now saves)

Here we have the plain grammatical witness. Baptism is the antitype. The antitype is the "real thing." The flood is the type, "symbol" pointing to the antitype. This is not theology. It is plain grammatical translation. It could be from any Greek writing of the times. It is what it says. "antitupon .. baptisma."

I always hesitate a little every time someone implies baptism is the symbol, "symbolically," because of these clear words from scripture that it is the real thing being pointed to symbolically. That`s what an antitype is.

We cannot say "when we enter the water we are symbolically," and be faithful to this scripture where "symbols" are mentioned.

I don't disagree... I guess I am not articulating it very well. The act is not symbolic but the act produces symbolic pictures. Are our sins literally being washed away by the WATER or does God forgive us? Are we literally being buried like in a tomb in baptism? No... but the act addresses being becoming a new man as well. So there is a physical act that is important and that act is tied to facets or our relationship with God but how they connect isn't as literal as we make it sound. This doesn't take away from what we are doing... in fact... it should add depth because we begin to see that a simple act of something like baptism is actually addressing more than we realize.

 

[Ken Rank]

Precisely because it is a work of God and infants should not be denied the gift of faith. We are baptized “into” Christ as Scripture says. If infants and children are denied coming into the body of Christ, then Christianity is a religion that excludes children.

If that infant grows up and decides it wants the world instead of God because that infants parents cannot make the life decision of that now adult... what good was the baptism? You're (and others are) placing all the weight on the act... let me ask you... we read that we are to "pray in Jesus name." Will God hear you if you don't include the name Jesus somewhere in your prayer? Will He give you what you ask if that name is dropped from the prayer?

I would like to know how you know that infants can’t discern right from wrong? Just because we don’t have long term memory storage working at that time and can’t remember making decisions doesn’t mean we don’t. Infants learn to manipulate their environment pretty quickly and if allowed to do so can often become little monsters before they walk. Does a 2 year old throwing a tantrum not know at some level it is wrong?

First of all you are including "infant" and a two year old which is a small child not an infant.

Have you had children? If you have you KNOW that behavior is LEARNED. How do I know? Because I have had children and I have had to child protect the house... why? Because THEY DON'T KNOW where to stick or not stick their tongue, toe, or finger. They don't know to not suck on the furniture polish bottle... or when we take them outside on a warm spring day I have to make sure they don't crawl over and eat a dig turd because they DON'T KNOW. And yet... you are actually trying to argue that they might possibly be able to discern between sin and death... God and the Adversary. I don't even know what you say to you and others who are making this argument.

Secondly.... GOD HIMSELF in the OT and NT use a BABY as the picture of our spiritual development. In Isaiah and in Hebrews we see talk about milk and needing the breast and eventually growing to the point of being able to eat MEAT. Why would God use HUMAN DEVELOPMENT in sharing His view on spiritual development? Because they mirror one another. The Acts 15 letter has just a few things for the new believer to get started on... AND THEN they are expected to learn and grow and study.

The baby DIES unless we feed it. It can't change its diaper, it can't read... even those smart little kids are not really counting and understanding math when their parents parade them around... they nothing more than parrots.

Listen...just the other day a kid barely four at a baseball game I was at... was asked by proud momma, "honey, spell basketball" and he did. And the whole crowd was so impressed and do you know what I thought... "Hey kid, spell mommy." I didn't say it but I knew if I did he wouldn't have know because I have seen this 100 times before. The kid is cute and probably smart... but at this point a parrot. He REPEATED what mom made him REPEAT over and over again.

What the video says is that infants can indeed have faith, and he is correct. You equate faith to an intellectual decision rather than a gift from God, which is how Scripture refers to it.

Paul >> Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God
James >> Faith without works is dead being alone

Can the baby hear? Sure... does it have a larger enough vocabulary and definition data base in its head to understand all that it hears? NO WAY! Can it then act on what it hears and do what God tells him? No...

Faith is not belief... belief does not REQUIRE hearing God and does not REQUIRE action... faith does... we hear and then we act on what we hear or else our faith is dead being alone. The infant does not live by faith. That doesn't mean it doesn't belong to God and that he won't be saved because I firmly believe he will be.

Christ knows the heart of infants and his words are clear:

Matthew 11:25-26 25 At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

First, read my last section... I stated there (and elsewhere) that I think babies will be saved. Second... I think in the verse above... the infants are us. We are the "babes" in that verse... when he stated that he was speaking to people taking the very first steps in this renewed or new walk depending on your perspective. Milk and then meat... God's words... and since as ALL are on milk first... then we are all babes (spiritually speaking) first.

They should be if you want them to be part of the body of Christ.

If a child in our congregation asks to be baptized, we do NOT say now. But we do so knowing that at 5 or 6 or 7 years old... they have learned enough to desire God but we all know they don't have the full understanding they will as an adult when they will make this decision again or if you prefer (because I see no reason to argue semantics) reaffirm their commitment. But this topic is dealing with >>BABIES<< not small children. The subject is very clear... babies, infants. You keep using infant and then what would be a 5 year old interchangeably but they are not... at 5 the kid has a clue what is going on even though at that age his parents (if they are good ones) are not exposing that child AT THAT AGE to most of the horrors in the world... but a baby does not, can not.. have a clue about ANYTHING. It doesn't even know where the milk it gets comes from... it just relies on it coming and that is all it knows.

 

[Albion]

If that infant grows up and decides it wants the world instead of God because that infants parents cannot make the life decision of that now adult... what good was the baptism?

Forgiveness of sin, becoming a formal member of the family of God, reception of grace for daily living, commitment of the sponsors to see that the child is raised in the faith....

If a child in our congregation asks to be baptized, we do NOT say now. But we do so knowing that at 5 or 6 or 7 years old... they have learned enough to desire God but we all know they don't have the full understanding they will as an adult when they will make this decision again or if you prefer (because I see no reason to argue semantics) reaffirm their commitment. But this topic is dealing with >>BABIES<< not small children. The subject is very clear... babies, infants. You keep using infant and then what would be a 5 year old interchangeably but they are not.

To me, this is the biggest disconnect of all when it comes to baptism as performed in churches that supposedly adhere to the principle of "Believer's Baptism." They insist that an infant or very young child cannot possibly know what Faith is all about and has to wait until he can make a profession on his own. But then, in practice, they baptize that person when he's 8 or 9 or so and justify it as though his comprehension level--which is still just a reflection of what Mom and Dad have told him and is on the "I know that Jesus loves me" level--is the same as an adult's.

And to make matters worse, they practice a ceremony that's completely artificial--dedication of the infant. You ask what a Baptism accomplishes? Well, this is one thing, and the "Believer's Baptism" churches recognize it well enough to feel that they have to phony up some half-way ritual in order, hopefully, to remedy their mistake with this aspect of it anyway.

 

[Ken Rank]

Forgiveness of sin, becoming a formal member of the family of God, reception of grace for daily living, commitment of the sponsors to see that the child is raised in the faith....


To me, this is the biggest disconnect of all when it comes to baptism as performed in churches that supposedly adhere to the principle of "Believer's Baptism." They insist that an infant or very young child cannot possibly know what Faith is all about and has to wait until he can make a profession on his own. But then, in practice, they baptize that person when he's 8 or 9 or so and justify it as though his comprehension level--which is still just a reflection of what Mom and Dad have told him and is on the "I know that Jesus loves me" level--is the same as an adult's.

And to make matters worse, they practice a ceremony that's completely artificial--dedication of the infant. You ask what a Baptism accomplishes? Well, this is one thing, and the "Believer's Baptism" churches recognize it well enough to feel that they have to phony up some half-way ritual in order, hopefully, to remedy their mistake with this aspect of it anyway.

Faith is not belief... belief does not REQUIRE hearing God and does not REQUIRE action... faith does... we hear and then we act on what we hear or else our faith is dead being alone. The infant does not live by faith. That doesn't mean it doesn't belong to God and that he won't be saved because I firmly believe he will be. But if his vocabulary and definition base is non-existent as an INFANT... then it can't hear and do because it doesn't know what it is hearing.

 

[Albion]

Faith is not belief... belief does not REQUIRE hearing God and does not REQUIRE action... faith does... we hear and then we act on what we hear or else our faith is dead being alone. The infant does not live by faith. That doesn't mean it doesn't belong to God and that he won't be saved because I firmly believe he will be. But if his vocabulary and definition base is non-existent as an INFANT... then it can't hear and do because it doesn't know what it is hearing.

You asked what good a baptism is for an infant and so I told you. If you want to respond to THAT, I would of course be happy to read it.

 

[Albion]

Faith is not belief... belief does not REQUIRE hearing God and does not REQUIRE action... faith does... we hear and then we act on what we hear or else our faith is dead being alone. The infant does not live by faith. That doesn't mean it doesn't belong to God and that he won't be saved because I firmly believe he will be. But if his vocabulary and definition base is non-existent as an INFANT... then it can't hear and do because it doesn't know what it is hearing.

Aren't you mixing Baptism and Salvation by Faith here? There are many congregations that practice "Believer's Baptism" and none of them is certain that the candidate has Faith rather than simple Belief.

In fact, there are many which rush the person through a Baptism on the basis of a quick "Sinner's Prayer" that has been urged upon him during a sermon. All the historic churches do a better job of preparation than that.

 

[Butch5]

Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.

This would be a good video to post in the thread on logical fallacies as it is laced with them.

 

[harkpuff]

God's ability to have a relationship with a person is not prohibited by our intellect. He doesn't have to wait until we're "smart" enough. Sadly, many are denied receiving the gift of faith through baptism and being incorporated into the body of Christ as children because for some reason we believe that infants are incapable of being in relationship with their Father. Then, they have to overcome the roadblocks that their intellect will try to put in the way, so they can receive the kingdom of God like a 'little child' would as God intended in the first place.

The reason that every single conversion we see in the Book of Acts is an adult is that when they were children the Church had not yet begun her mission of evangelization. There were no Christian parents and there were no Christian homes to pass on the faith. By the time the New Testament is being written there are Christian parents and homes. We also never see a child from one of these homes 'making a decision' for Christ. We never see any discussion about an 'age of reason' before they can do so. Why not? Because they were already Christians.

Do we really believe that our children are pagans until they are old enough to decide for themselves that they are Christian? Do we really believe that Christianity is a religion exclusive of children, when Christ holds them up as an example of the ones who easily receive the kingdom of God? That they are the 'model?

I have no clue why people have decided that faith is dependent upon our human intellect instead of God. But I know that what Scripture says about little children and infants, and what you have said here does not align to it.

Fanciful words, or TRUTH from the mouth of Christ?

Matthew 11:25-26 25 At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Matthew 21:15-16 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the amazing things that he did, and heard the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they became angry 16 and said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?” (Psalm 8:2)

Mark 10:13:16 13 People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. 15 Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it.” 16 And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them. (Also Luke 18:15-17)

The gift of faith does not come through the act of Baptism. Faith is something you have prior to Baptism.
Scripture says in Romans 10:17 that "Faith comes though the hearing of the Word of God". Phillip first explained salvation through Jesus Christ to the Ethiopian Eunuch. When Phillip asked the Eunuch if he UNDERSTOOD what he was reading, the Ethiopian replied..."How can I, unless someone explain it to me". Phillip also must have explained to the Ethiopian his need for Baptism because the section of scripture the Ethiopian was reading said nothing about Baptism.
The response the Eunuch gave regarding his need to understand confirms Romans 10:17. Faith comes through the hearing of God's Word. God has determined that salvation is partially dependent upon our ability to reason and ability to make a decision for Him. Otherwise what is the purpose of preaching and hearing the word of God's plan for salvation.
Infant children are incapable of this kind of understanding and because of this if they were to die prior to their ability to understand, they are already a part of God's kingdom. Thus making infant baptism an unnecessary act. It is only when a child reaches an age of understanding when he can realize he is a sinner and then realize through the hearing of God's Word their need to repent of their sins and follow up in the obedience of baptism for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. God, Jesus, Paul, Peter and the other disciples are very clear on how a person comes to a saving relationship with God.
When Jesus used the little children as an example in the temple he was simply saying that adults need to come to a relationship with God with the same innocent wide-eyed unquestionable faith in God as a small child does in their parents. Jesus is saying to adults to come to him in the manner of humility and innocence of a little child, Jesus is not saying to come to Him when you are one or two years old. Jesus was using, as he often did, word pictures to make a point.
Children are not simply bound for hell pagans during their years of innocence. Because of their innocence, they are already in a saved condition. But eventually (and the age is different for all kids) and only God knows when that point is for each of us); when we reach an age of understanding when we know the difference between right and wrong, when we realize the God created power of conscience and we are capable of understanding the Bibles plan of salvation, our need for a saviour and then, like all of mankind, have to make that all important decision of life.....What am I going to do with Jesus? Will I make him Lord....or will I make Him Judge?
All children and infants, until they are able to reason, if they were to die before they reach that ability to reason, are automatically a part of God's kingdom.

 

[Albion]

The gift of faith does not come through the act of Baptism.

Does not come at the moment of receiving Baptism, no. I think most of us agree to that. But as to your theory about the innocence of newborns, no, the Bible teaches that all of us are born in sin. Several different verses attest to that.

What you need to tackle, if you're interested in my answer to the "what good does baptism do?" challenge is address what I answered in post 71.

 

[All_In]

Never mind.

 

[All_In]

Never mind

 

[Tangible]

Everyone please stop posting strawman arguments against baptism as an act of obedience being necessary for salvation, or against baptism vs salvation through faith alone.

No one is saying that and it is not the position advocated in the video.

If you havent taken eleven minutes to watch the video in the OP please dont bother to respond. Thanks!