47: USA's fall into Fascism

[ThatRobGuy]

And you are uninformed.

No... But I've been around long enough to remember when the exact same accusations were made against George W Bush and Mitt Romney.

Gun control is NOT a hallmark of fascism. Attacks on universities and intellectuals IS.

Hitler implemented strict gun control for anyone who wasn't a party member

Mussolini strictly restricted civilian firearm ownership as part of his broader effort to centralize power

Francisco Franco’s regime enacted strict gun control and confiscations to prevent potential rebellions

Antonio Salazar did the same, only allowing the military to have guns and forcibly confiscating them from everyone else

Hirohito did the same in Japan

Today Trump just threatened automakers that if they raise prices in response to tariffs, they will face consequences.

That's economic populism and protectionism, not fascism.

 

[stevil]

Overuse of National Emergencies as a power grab for the President and Congress abdicating their co-equal power as a check and balance on the power of the President.

House majority rules: When a 'calendar day' isn't what it seems - Roll Call

It can seem like a day on Capitol Hill never ends. Last week the House Rules Committee made that feeling a reality.

rollcall.com

The 1976 law establishing the ability of presidents to declare a national emergency, conferring on them unusually flexible authorities, provides a fail-safe mechanism for Congress to ensure the president doesn’t, in lawmakers’ eyes, go too far.

The National Emergencies Act requires committees to report a bill to terminate a national emergency within 15 calendar days after its introduction and referral, and a floor vote on passage must occur three days later.

“It’s a way for minority members to force a vote in the House, for example, if they don’t like tariffs, they could put everybody, every Republican, on the record about Trump’s tariffs,” said Josh Huder, senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Government Affairs Institute.

“Now, if you’re in the majority and you don’t want to vote against Trump tariffs because you think it’s politically unpalatable to do so, to look like you’re on the opposite side of the president, then you put this sort of thing in which basically negates the privilege purposes of the National Emergencies Act,” he said.

“House Republicans are declaring that the days are no longer days and that time has literally stopped,” Meeks, D-N.Y., said during floor debate on the CR rule. “The speaker is petrified that members of this House will actually have to take a vote on lowering costs for the American people.”

Time-tested tactic​

While McGovern denounced the Republican move to block votes on the national emergency, he made use of a similar strategy when he chaired the Rules Committee.

In 2021, House Democrats twice waived the expedited procedures under the National Emergencies Act to block an effort led by Rep. Paul Gosar, R-Ariz., to terminate the COVID-19 national emergency. Those maneuvers also prevented the House from being forced to take up two Senate-passed joint resolutions to terminate the COVID-19 emergency, both sponsored by Sen. Roger Marshall, R-Kan.

 

[stevil]

Use of Executive Orders gives the president the power to put things through without having to bother themselves with congress. Basically a way to grab power
In the first 60 days of Trump's second term he has already issued 107 EOs

Executive Orders | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

Executive Orders by President, Average Per Years in Office​
President	Term	Total Orders	Avg/Year	Yrs in Office	EO Number Range
George Washington (F)	Total	8	1	7.85	unnumbered
John Adams (F)	Total	1	0.25	4.00	unnumbered
Thomas Jefferson (D-R)	Total	4	0.50	8.00	unnumbered
James Madison (D-R)	Total	1	0.13	8.00	unnumbered
James Monroe (D-R)	Total	1	0.13	8.00	unnumbered
John Quincy Adams (D-R)	Total	3	0.75	4.00	unnumbered
Andrew Jackson (D)	Total	12	1.5	8.00	unnumbered
Martin van Buren (D)	Total	10	2.5	4.00	unnumbered
William Henry Harrison (W)	Total	0	0	0.08	unnumbered
John Tyler (W)	Total	17	4.3	3.92	unnumbered
James K. Polk (D)	Total	18	4.5	4.00	unnumbered
Zachary Taylor (W)	Total	5	3.7	1.35	unnumbered
Millard Fillmore (W)	Total	12	4.5	2.65	unnumbered
Franklin Pierce (D)	Total	35	9	4.00	unnumbered
James Buchanan (D)	Total	16	4	4.00	unnumbered
Abraham Lincoln (R)	Total	48	12	4.12	unnumbered
Andrew Johnson (D)	Total	79	20	3.89	unnumbered
Ulysses S. Grant (R)	Total	217	27	8.00	unnumbered
Rutherford B. Hayes (R)	Total	92	23	4.00	unnumbered
James Garfield (R)	Total	6	11	0.55	unnumbered
Chester Arthur (R)	Total	96	28	3.46	unnumbered
Grover Cleveland - I (D)	Total	113	28	4.00	unnumbered
Benjamin Harrison (R)	Total	143	36	4.00	unnumbered
Grover Cleveland - II (D)	Total	140	35	4.00	unnumbered
William McKinley (R)	Total	185	41	4.53	unnumbered
Theodore Roosevelt (R)	Total	1,081	145	7.47
William Howard Taft (R)	Total	724	181	4.00
Woodrow Wilson (D)	Total	1,803	225	8.00
Warren G. Harding (R)	Total	522	217	2.41
Calvin Coolidge (R)	Total	1,203	215	5.59
Herbert Hoover (R)	Total	1,003	251	4.00	5076 - 6070
Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)	Total	3,721	307	12.12	6071 - 9537
Harry S. Truman (D)	Total	907	117	7.78	9538 - 10431
	I	504	133	3.78	9538 - 10029
	II	403	101	4.00	10030 - 10431
Dwight D. Eisenhower (R)	Total	484	61	8.00	10432 - 10913
	I	266	67	4.00	10432 - 10695-A
	II	218	55	4.00	10696 - 10913
John F. Kennedy (D)	Total	214	75	2.84	10914 - 11127
Lyndon B. Johnson (D)	Total	325	63	5.17	11128 - 11451
Richard Nixon (R)	Total	346	62	5.55	11452 - 11797
	I	247	62	4.00	11452 - 11698
	II	99	64	1.55	11699 - 11797
Gerald R. Ford (R)	Total	169	69	2.45	11798 - 11966
Jimmy Carter (D)	Total	320	80	4.00	11967 - 12286
Ronald Reagan (R)	Total	381	48	8.00	12287 - 12667
	I	213	53	4.00	12287 - 12499
	II	168	42	4.00	12500 - 12667
George Bush (R)	Total	166	42	4.00	12668 - 12833
William J. Clinton (D)	Total	364	46	8.00	12834 - 13197
	I	200	50	4.00	12834 - 13033
	II	164	41	4.00	13034 - 13197
George W. Bush (R)	Total	291	36	8.00	13198 - 13488
	I	173	43	4.00	13198 - 13370
	II	118	30	4.00	13371 - 13488
Barack Obama (D)	Total	276	35	8.00	13489 - 13764
	I	147	37	4.00	13489 - 13635
	II	129	32	4.00	13636 - 13764
Donald J. Trump - I (R)	Total	220	55	4.00	13765 - 13984
Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D)	Total	162	41	4.00	13985 - 14146
Donald J. Trump - II (R)	Total	107	** see note	0.17	14147 - 14253

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I think terms like "fascism" get tossed around too willy nilly.

Can you cite another fascist regime in history that wanted:
- The citizens themselves to have more guns

A red herring, as gun ownership is concentrated in supporters of the regime (and thus it is not in their interest to limit gun rights). It's also somewhat difficult to get rid of constitutional rights.

- To dismantle more levers of government power than it creates

The levers being dismantled are peripheral and unnecessary to the exercise of federal power. Meanwhile, the executive branch is consolidating its power, expanding, and pushing the limits of what it can do with that power.

- To deregulate enterprise to the point where private corporate interests have as much power as the government itself

Is that actually true though? Private corporate interests who support the government's agenda get power, but those who step out of line get the stick. Just this week, we've seen the president issue executive orders aimed at punishing law firms who did things he didn't like and make threats towards automakers not to raise prices in response to his tariffs. We've also seen multiple large corporations take actions including making donations and changing company policies in order to align with the president's interests.

But all of this is pretty much irrelevant, because the concern is just that the US is moving down the road towards fascism, not that it is fascist already. Just because some specific things don't currently align with "standard" fascist policies does not mean that other things do not, or that those things cannot be changed down the road. And you need to pay attention to what the government is doing, not just what they're saying.

 

[stevil]

Meanwhile, the executive branch is consolidating its power, expanding, and pushing the limits of what it can do with that power.

This

 

[chevyontheriver]

This thread is to document the steps USA is falling through in it's journey towards Fascism

But first, what is Fascism?
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Your definition of Fascism is wrong. It is Leftist.

But I will agree that we are seeing a rise in Fascism in the USA. It's coming from the Left. The analogue is the Brownshirts, the thugs who burn and terrorize and bully and cancel and propagandize. From burning police stations in Minneapolis to burning Teslas now, throwing rocks onto cars from overpasses, telling us what we cannot say or even think, demanding resignations and doxing people, and controlling the media so that we don't see or hear forbidden things, yes Fascism is rising. Trump is no angel, but it's the Fascists who are opposing him. If you are torching Teslas the person you see in the mirror is the Fascist. It's this year's Kristallnacht.

 

[ozso]

Refusing to even entertain the possibility and ignoring the evidence presented to you is, in fact, sticking your head in the sand.

@Vambram and others are looking at the evidence being presented, considering the possibility, and concluding it's not happening or going to happen.

Someone with their head in the sand wouldn't be saying anything about it, because they'd be ignoring the issue, and therefore would be virtually oblivious to it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Trump signs order declaring only president and AG can interpret US law for executive branch

US President Donald Trump signed an executive order on Tuesday stating that only the 'President and the Attorney General shall provide authoritative interpretations of the law for the executive branch...

www.jurist.org

US President Donald Trump signed an executive order on Tuesday stating that only the “President and the Attorney General shall provide authoritative interpretations of the law for the executive branch

As it should be. That is the job of the Attorney General. If someone doesn't like it they can take it to court, as it should be. And it seems nobody is shy about doing exactly that. Let the courts look into it.

Trump Calls Student Protests 'Illegal,' Threatens to Imprison Those Who Participate

President Donald Trump threatened to pull federal funding from schools and expel or imprison students who participate in so-called 'illegal protests'

people.com

"All Federal Funding will STOP for any College, School, or University that allows illegal protests," Trump wrote in a social media post, adding that students may be expelled, arrested or deported
In January, Trump signed an executive order to "combat the explosion of anti-Semitism on our campuses and in our streets since October 7, 2023," also known as the date that Hamas launched a deadly attack on Israel.

As well he should have done. If a college or university that gets massive Federal funds does not protect their students they should lose their funding until they straighten out. Jewish students have faced hostile educational environments due to these Hamas terrorist demonstrations.

The executive orders states that "immediate action will be taken by the Department of Justice to protect law and order, quell pro-Hamas vandalism and intimidation, and investigate and punish anti-Jewish racism in leftist, anti-American colleges and universities," per the White House website.

Anti-Semitism is an ugly thing and such racism should be stopped by appropriate action, either Local or State or Federal. The colleges themselves should have seen to it that their campuses were not turned into hostile anti-Semitic places. What happened was shameful.

Trump vowed to "quickly cancel the student visas of all Hamas sympathizers on college campuses."

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Foreign student's with student visas should be deported if they support terrorist organizations. It's that simple. These people are guests here. They should not be supporting terrorist organizations.

 

[ozso]

Your definition of Fascism is wrong. It is Leftist.

But I will agree that we are seeing a rise in Fascism in the USA. It's coming from the Left. The analogue is the Brownshirts, the thugs who burn and terrorize and bully and cancel and propagandize. From burning police stations in Minneapolis to burning Teslas now, throwing rocks onto cars from overpasses, telling us what we cannot say or even think, demanding resignations and doxing people, and controlling the media so that we don't see or hear forbidden things, yes Fascism is rising. Trump is no angel, but it's the Fascists who are opposing him. If you are torching Teslas the person you see in the mirror is the Fascist. It's this year's Kristallnacht.

Kristallnacht 1938:

Kristallnacht 2025:

 

[Pommer]

Your definition of Fascism is wrong. It is Leftist.

Our friend obviously isn’t using the Dinesh D’Souza version, but rather the Umberto Eco one.

 

[chevyontheriver]

@Vambram and others are looking at the evidence being presented, considering the possibility, and concluding it's not happening or going to happen.

Someone with their head in the sand wouldn't be saying anything about it, because they'd be ignoring the issue, and therefore would be virtually oblivious to it.

IMHO the evidence is there for rising Fascism from parts of the Left. If you look in a mirror when you are vandalizing a Tesla you will be looking at a Fascist.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Our friend obviously isn’t using the Dinesh D’Souza version, but rather the Umberto Eco one.

I like Umberto Eco very much and have four of his crazy books on my bookshelf, but his politics is on his sleeve. The Nazis were, we have to remember, actually Socialists.

 

[ozso]

IMHO the evidence is there for rising Fascism from parts of the Left. If you look in a mirror when you are vandalizing a Tesla you will be looking at a Fascist.

Fortunately they're not in power right now.

 

[FreeinChrist]

As it should be. That is the job of the Attorney General. If someone doesn't like it they can take it to court, as it should be. And it seems nobody is shy about doing exactly that. Let the courts look into it.

As well he should have done. If a college or university that gets massive Federal funds does not protect their students they should lose their funding until they straighten out. Jewish students have faced hostile educational environments due to these Hamas terrorist demonstrations.

Anti-Semitism is an ugly thing and such racism should be stopped by appropriate action, either Local or State or Federal. The colleges themselves should have seen to it that their campuses were not turned into hostile anti-Semitic places. What happened was shameful.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Foreign student's with student visas should be deported if they support terrorist organizations. It's that simple. These people are guests here. They should not be supporting terrorist organizations.

No, fascism rises from the far-right. Look at history.

What Is Fascism?

In this free resource, learn how Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler rose to power and the lessons their political journeys hold for today.

education.cfr.org

Germany’s Nazi Party (originally founded as the National Socialist German Workers’ Party) also emerged in the aftermath of the war, in 1920. With many Germans shocked by the country’s defeat in World War I, the Nazis pushed a narrative that argued Germany could have won the war if not for unrest at home. This myth falsely accused Jewish people and left-wing activists of undermining the country’s war effort. The Nazis also blamed Germany’s new democratic government for abandoning the conflict and accepting harsh peace terms from the Allied Powers. Propelled by this vision, the Nazis went from winning 3 percent of the vote in the 1928 parliamentary elections to 44 percent in 1933. They were also supported by their own paramilitary group known as the Sturmabteilung (or “Brownshirts”). This militant army—like the squadristi—clashed with the party’s rivals.​

​

The conservatives in Germany joined with the Nazi party and the conservatives in Italy joined with Mussalini. They may have expected to have more control over events than they did.

​

​

 

[FreeinChrist]

I like Umberto Eco very much and have four of his crazy books on my bookshelf, but his politics is on his sleeve. The Nazis were, we have to remember, actually Socialists.

They called themselves Socialists. But they weren't.

From AI:

• The "National Socialist" label:
  The Nazi Party, officially known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), used "Socialist" in their name to appeal to the working class and capitalize on the popularity of socialist ideas in post-World War I Germany.
• Anti-capitalism and Anti-Semitism:
  The Nazi ideology included anti-capitalist rhetoric, but this was primarily focused on dismantling the perceived Jewish control of the economy, not on implementing a socialist economic system.
• Authoritarianism and Nationalism:
  The Nazi regime was highly authoritarian, with a strong emphasis on national unity and racial purity, which are not core tenets of socialism.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Just a reminder folks, read this announcement:

Admin Announcement - A list of unacceptable nicknames

There continues to be problems with posters using labels and unpleasant nicknames for public figures and groups. As this has become an issue around the site, we are creating this list and attaching a link to the flaming rule. It is not meant to be all-inclusive and will be edited as needed. Do...

www.christianforums.com

It includes:

Do not call either political party in the US or members thereof Fascist, or Socialist*, or Marxist or Communist. Do not call the leaders Hitler.​

Do not use wing nut, racist bigot, hatemonger, hater (as in Trump-hater or Biden hater), NORK, Sodomite, snowflake, RINO, DINO Cuckservative, Cuck.​

 

[chevyontheriver]

Use of Executive Orders gives the president the power to put things through without having to bother themselves with congress. Basically a way to grab power
In the first 60 days of Trump's second term he has already issued 107 EOs

Executive Orders | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

Executive Orders by President, Average Per Years in Office​
President	Term	Total Orders	Avg/Year	Yrs in Office	EO Number Range
George Washington (F)	Total	8	1	7.85	unnumbered
John Adams (F)	Total	1	0.25	4.00	unnumbered
Thomas Jefferson (D-R)	Total	4	0.50	8.00	unnumbered
James Madison (D-R)	Total	1	0.13	8.00	unnumbered
James Monroe (D-R)	Total	1	0.13	8.00	unnumbered
John Quincy Adams (D-R)	Total	3	0.75	4.00	unnumbered
Andrew Jackson (D)	Total	12	1.5	8.00	unnumbered
Martin van Buren (D)	Total	10	2.5	4.00	unnumbered
William Henry Harrison (W)	Total	0	0	0.08	unnumbered
John Tyler (W)	Total	17	4.3	3.92	unnumbered
James K. Polk (D)	Total	18	4.5	4.00	unnumbered
Zachary Taylor (W)	Total	5	3.7	1.35	unnumbered
Millard Fillmore (W)	Total	12	4.5	2.65	unnumbered
Franklin Pierce (D)	Total	35	9	4.00	unnumbered
James Buchanan (D)	Total	16	4	4.00	unnumbered
Abraham Lincoln (R)	Total	48	12	4.12	unnumbered
Andrew Johnson (D)	Total	79	20	3.89	unnumbered
Ulysses S. Grant (R)	Total	217	27	8.00	unnumbered
Rutherford B. Hayes (R)	Total	92	23	4.00	unnumbered
James Garfield (R)	Total	6	11	0.55	unnumbered
Chester Arthur (R)	Total	96	28	3.46	unnumbered
Grover Cleveland - I (D)	Total	113	28	4.00	unnumbered
Benjamin Harrison (R)	Total	143	36	4.00	unnumbered
Grover Cleveland - II (D)	Total	140	35	4.00	unnumbered
William McKinley (R)	Total	185	41	4.53	unnumbered
Theodore Roosevelt (R)	Total	1,081	145	7.47
William Howard Taft (R)	Total	724	181	4.00
Woodrow Wilson (D)	Total	1,803	225	8.00
Warren G. Harding (R)	Total	522	217	2.41
Calvin Coolidge (R)	Total	1,203	215	5.59
Herbert Hoover (R)	Total	1,003	251	4.00	5076 - 6070
Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)	Total	3,721	307	12.12	6071 - 9537
Harry S. Truman (D)	Total	907	117	7.78	9538 - 10431
	I	504	133	3.78	9538 - 10029
	II	403	101	4.00	10030 - 10431
Dwight D. Eisenhower (R)	Total	484	61	8.00	10432 - 10913
	I	266	67	4.00	10432 - 10695-A
	II	218	55	4.00	10696 - 10913
John F. Kennedy (D)	Total	214	75	2.84	10914 - 11127
Lyndon B. Johnson (D)	Total	325	63	5.17	11128 - 11451
Richard Nixon (R)	Total	346	62	5.55	11452 - 11797
	I	247	62	4.00	11452 - 11698
	II	99	64	1.55	11699 - 11797
Gerald R. Ford (R)	Total	169	69	2.45	11798 - 11966
Jimmy Carter (D)	Total	320	80	4.00	11967 - 12286
Ronald Reagan (R)	Total	381	48	8.00	12287 - 12667
	I	213	53	4.00	12287 - 12499
	II	168	42	4.00	12500 - 12667
George Bush (R)	Total	166	42	4.00	12668 - 12833
William J. Clinton (D)	Total	364	46	8.00	12834 - 13197
	I	200	50	4.00	12834 - 13033
	II	164	41	4.00	13034 - 13197
George W. Bush (R)	Total	291	36	8.00	13198 - 13488
	I	173	43	4.00	13198 - 13370
	II	118	30	4.00	13371 - 13488
Barack Obama (D)	Total	276	35	8.00	13489 - 13764
	I	147	37	4.00	13489 - 13635
	II	129	32	4.00	13636 - 13764
Donald J. Trump - I (R)	Total	220	55	4.00	13765 - 13984
Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D)	Total	162	41	4.00	13985 - 14146
Donald J. Trump - II (R)	Total	107	** see note	0.17	14147 - 14253

According to your list here FDR was the clear leader in executive orders. Does that make someone like him a Fascist for issuing all those executive orders? Or are you saying something different?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I think terms like "fascism" get tossed around too willy nilly.

Can you cite another fascist regime in history that wanted:
- The citizens themselves to have more guns
- To dismantle more levers of government power than it creates
- To deregulate enterprise to the point where private corporate interests have as much power as the government itself


Tossing out examples of recently detained people, without any context is intentionally misleading.

For example, the one that's been on most peoples' radar is the story of Khalil.

He was the spokesman for a group called "Apartheid Divest"

Pro-Palestinian Group at Columbia Now Backs ‘Armed Resistance’ by Hamas

Columbia University Apartheid Divest has withdrawn an apology it made last spring for a member who said “Zionists don’t deserve to live.”

www.nytimes.com

It's a group that has not only said "Zionists don't deserve to live", but they've also praised specific attacks and praised specific groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), a noncitizen (including a green card holder) can be deported if they provide material support to a designated foreign terrorist organization (FTO). This includes financial support, training, services, or certain forms of advocacy. If a green card holder is found to have incited, endorsed, or recruited for terrorism, that could also be grounds for removal.



As far as the teacher being forced to take down certain posters...that was a directive of the Idaho school board, I highly doubt Trump is personally weighing in on the decisions of a local school board in Idaho.

...and it was based on a blanket policy the district had stating "approved classroom displays include the Idaho state flag, instructional materials like the periodic table or U.S. Constitution, student artwork, approved club information and school-sponsored achievements. Other permitted items include temporary displays of world flags for educational purposes, personal family photos of employees and promotional materials from colleges or professional sports teams"

It all has to start somewhere.

 

[Maori Aussie]

No, fascism rises from the far-right. Look at history.

Thank you for that reminder. I would argue that there are unlikely allies in the Authoritarian swamp. For example, some on the left in America are campaigning on behalf of hamas who seized power after one election, they did not win a majority, murdered their political opponents (PA), murdered homosexuals and Jews, and have ruled for nearly twenty years without opposition using a National Socialist political platform.
Sound familiar??? Yes, Fascism is absolutely wrong. Fight it. Don't support it!

 

[chevyontheriver]

They called themselves Socialists. But they weren't.

From AI:

• The "National Socialist" label:
  The Nazi Party, officially known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), used "Socialist" in their name to appeal to the working class and capitalize on the popularity of socialist ideas in post-World War I Germany.
• Anti-capitalism and Anti-Semitism:
  The Nazi ideology included anti-capitalist rhetoric, but this was primarily focused on dismantling the perceived Jewish control of the economy, not on implementing a socialist economic system.
• Authoritarianism and Nationalism:
  The Nazi regime was highly authoritarian, with a strong emphasis on national unity and racial purity, which are not core tenets of socialism.

Your AI has spoken. But your AI is deficient. Even so your AI notes that the Nazis capitalized on the popularity of Socialist ideas and the Nazis were anti-Capitalist. That they were into racist ethnic purity murder of Jews isn't particularly telling that they were not Socialists. The Soviet Union was very anti-Semitic and again, quite into socialism. Socialism and anti-Semitism actually does seem to correlate to a degree, and it shows up with Leftist support for Hamas, the folks who want to push out Jews from the River to the Sea. But they're just following in the footsteps of Haj Amin al-Husseini after all.