.357 or 1Omm

[Tuur]

Need to decide between .357 and 10mm. The reason is dangerous wildlife of the four-legged variety. Largest is hog and black bear. Had decided on 10mm, then read they wouldn’t cycle if you had to jam the barrel into the critter. Is that true?

 

[Unqualified]

You need some pretty strong loads with either of those. But I wouldn’t use a sa On bear. You need something bigger with more shocking power. With a big bear shot placement is very important. I would hope you wouldn’t have to get that close though.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Need to decide between .357 and 10mm. The reason is dangerous wildlife of the four-legged variety. Largest is hog and black bear. Had decided on 10mm, then read they wouldn’t cycle if you had to jam the barrel into the critter. Is that true?

Quite possibly. A good revolver will always go bang when you pull the trigger. I only use mine for target and competition, but I would whole heartedly endorse the Ruger GP100 with the 4.2" barrel. Strong to the extreme and with the combat grip easy to point. I have no problem hitting the mark in single or double action. Trigger is good in both modes. Mine is a plain, old blued one. I like it just fine. .357 magnum has lots of power, but is not excessive on the recoil. Having never fired a 10mm, I did own a couple .40s over the years, I would guess that recoil would be similar to a stout .357. I would suggest hard lead for penetration.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Need to decide between .357 and 10mm. The reason is dangerous wildlife of the four-legged variety. Largest is hog and black bear. Had decided on 10mm, then read they wouldn’t cycle if you had to jam the barrel into the critter. Is that true?

The situation in which you are considering the need is part of the equation.

I'm considering a short-range, short-barrel rifle, myself, with a lot of impact: The .300 Blackout. Not a long range weapon, and subsonic loads, with a silencer to keep the neighbors away, possibly with a pistol-grip. Very versatile.

But whatever, I would try to get the opportunity to shoot the two you are looking at to get an idea of what to expect. My shooting hand is damaged, and strong recoil handguns won't work well for me, except on the first shot.

 

[Richard T]

Would a Taurus Judge be appropriate? You could load a couple of .410 shells and some .45 in the 5 chambers. Seems like that would work for most instances, with only the lack of more rounds being the slight drawback.

 

[Tuur]

My preference is long guns; traditionally it's 12 gauge shotguns, as all you need is different shells for different game. We also carried them for this sort of situation. Unfortunately, a few days ago had an encounter in a close space that, had things been different, could have turned out very badly. There were items I could have grabbed for a makeshift weapon, but I'm not young anymore. That close space would have made it difficult to bring a long gun to bear.

That had me thinking of handguns, which I could have used in that space had it been necessary, and maybe be easier to carry in the woods all-around while tending to chores like fence fixing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Would a Taurus Judge be appropriate? You could load a couple of .410 shells and some .45 in the 5 chambers. Seems like that would work for most instances, with only the lack of more rounds being the slight drawback.

In Canada, we have established standards for wildlife defense. Firstly, the absolute minimum power allowed is .357 magnum. You must justify the need to carry a wildlife defensive pistol, you must attend special training, and you must meed fairly high competency standards. Seems a bit excessive? Think about it... if you are the one carrying, you are responsible for the safety of your work crew, your fishing buddies, those whom you are guiding, your families. Some serious consideration should be put into both the firearm choice and one's one ability "cool factor" is not a consideration. Think about when it is coming at you and is close enough you can smell it's BO.

Tauris Judge seems like a good idea, but they are heavy, and a bit more awkward to carry than a conventional revolver. If you want a .45, then get a .44 mag. Even 410 slugs are a bit of a weak sister compared to a Magnum Pistol round. The fit and finish of a Tauris is not up to the same level as Ruger or S & W. I don't believe that they have a speed loader for it. It is exactly what it says below, it is a "Novelty" revolver, and should be restricted t use as a range toy. In critical defense, the last thing you want is an unreliable P.O.S.T.

Lots of other prolems reported as well, some of which, a member at my club has experienced personally: (AI Overview):

AI Overview

The Taurus Judge is a novelty revolver that fires both .45 Long Colt and .410 shotgun shells. While versatile for close-range tasks like snake defense, owners frequently report mechanical failures and design flaws—most notably cylinder lock-ups, timing issues, and ammunition-length jams.
YouTube·TFB TV +2

1. Common Mechanical Problems

• Cylinder Lock-up: This is the most widely reported issue. Firing .410 shotshells creates significant residue and powder fouling. This buildup can cause friction between the cylinder and the forcing cone, causing the cylinder to become difficult to rotate or completely seize up.
• Ammunition-Length Jams: The Judge is chambered for either 2.5-inch or 3-inch shells. Attempting to load longer 3-inch magnum shells into a cylinder meant only for 2.5-inch shells will cause the cylinder to jam.
• • Stuck Casings: The expanded brass of .410 shells can stick tightly inside the cylinder chambers, making extraction difficult or requiring heavy force on the ejector rod.
  • Timing & Alignment Issues: Heavy use can lead to the cylinder falling out of "time" (indexing). If the chambers fail to align perfectly with the barrel, it can cause spitting of lead or jacket material out of the sides, creating a significant injury risk. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  
  2. Safety & Design Issues
  • Transfer Bar Mechanism: Like many modern revolvers, the Judge utilizes a transfer bar safety, which prevents the firing pin from being struck unless the trigger is pulled all the way back. However, some owners and manual supplements advise carrying the revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer to prevent potential accidental discharges if dropped.
  • The "Taurus Security System" (TSS): The Judge incorporates an integral keyed lock on the hammer. In rare instances, heavy recoil from .410 shells can cause internal lock components to fail, engaging the lock mechanism and preventing the gun from firing or the hammer from cocking.
  • Ballistic Compromise: For self-defense, the wide jump the bullet must make from the cylinder to the rifling—combined with a fast twist rate—can strip or deform projectiles, leading to erratic trajectories and poor penetration. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  
  3. Recommendations
  Because of these known limitations and the varying tolerances associated with budget-friendly revolvers, the Judge is widely considered by firearm instructors to be a poor primary choice for concealed carry or home defense. [1, 2, 3]

 

[Tuur]

Canada is Canada and its laws are its business. Will only observe that they seem city-folk oriented in that the default seems to be someone new to firearms who didn’t grow up around them. That is not an insult. I grew up in a family that hunted, plus the men had military experience and that carried over to firearms safety. Have witnessed a downright dangerous casualness in younger relations who didn’t grow up around hunting or someone with military experience. Like the time someone was about to walk in front of a firearm and some of us stopped them, but someone else uttered the dread words “It’s unloaded.” That prompted a discussion of fatalities caused by “unloaded” firearms.

Whether it’s a .357 or a 10mm, just having it isn’t a magic talisman. If a .357, then it’s 38 Special rounds or target rounds for practice. If it’s a 10mm, target rounds. I’ll need to be able to quickly aim and fire should the situation warrant, and that includes drawing and firing along with hitting the target. That means practice, practice, practice. My choice of calibers is dictated by my assumption of how I’d handle the recoil of a .44 Magnum, which is very poorly.

Will confess to briefly considering the .454 and practicing with .45 ammo, but it didn’t take long to dismiss that notion.

The AI info on the Taurus Judge sounds like, well, typical AI. Of course putting too long of a shell in it would cause problems. Timing issues and such can crop up in any revolver, just like if you have a revolver, it’s going to have a gap between cylinder and barrel. More an issue is the power of a .410 slug, plus rifled slugs don’t do well in rifled barrels so it would have to be one of those rounds designed for rifled shotgun barrels. The thing shoots a .45, and shot isn’t going to like that rifling, and they make rat shot anyway, so I don’t see the point.

 

[Richard T]

In Canada, we have established standards for wildlife defense. Firstly, the absolute minimum power allowed is .357 magnum. You must justify the need to carry a wildlife defensive pistol, you must attend special training, and you must meed fairly high competency standards. Seems a bit excessive? Think about it... if you are the one carrying, you are responsible for the safety of your work crew, your fishing buddies, those whom you are guiding, your families. Some serious consideration should be put into both the firearm choice and one's one ability "cool factor" is not a consideration. Think about when it is coming at you and is close enough you can smell it's BO.

Tauris Judge seems like a good idea, but they are heavy, and a bit more awkward to carry than a conventional revolver. If you want a .45, then get a .44 mag. Even 410 slugs are a bit of a weak sister compared to a Magnum Pistol round. The fit and finish of a Tauris is not up to the same level as Ruger or S & W. I don't believe that they have a speed loader for it. It is exactly what it says below, it is a "Novelty" revolver, and should be restricted t use as a range toy. In critical defense, the last thing you want is an unreliable P.O.S.T.

Lots of other prolems reported as well, some of which, a member at my club has experienced personally: (AI Overview):

AI Overview

The Taurus Judge is a novelty revolver that fires both .45 Long Colt and .410 shotgun shells. While versatile for close-range tasks like snake defense, owners frequently report mechanical failures and design flaws—most notably cylinder lock-ups, timing issues, and ammunition-length jams.
YouTube·TFB TV +2

1. Common Mechanical Problems

• Cylinder Lock-up: This is the most widely reported issue. Firing .410 shotshells creates significant residue and powder fouling. This buildup can cause friction between the cylinder and the forcing cone, causing the cylinder to become difficult to rotate or completely seize up.
• Ammunition-Length Jams: The Judge is chambered for either 2.5-inch or 3-inch shells. Attempting to load longer 3-inch magnum shells into a cylinder meant only for 2.5-inch shells will cause the cylinder to jam.
• • Stuck Casings: The expanded brass of .410 shells can stick tightly inside the cylinder chambers, making extraction difficult or requiring heavy force on the ejector rod.
  • Timing & Alignment Issues: Heavy use can lead to the cylinder falling out of "time" (indexing). If the chambers fail to align perfectly with the barrel, it can cause spitting of lead or jacket material out of the sides, creating a significant injury risk. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  
  2. Safety & Design Issues
  • Transfer Bar Mechanism: Like many modern revolvers, the Judge utilizes a transfer bar safety, which prevents the firing pin from being struck unless the trigger is pulled all the way back. However, some owners and manual supplements advise carrying the revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer to prevent potential accidental discharges if dropped.
  • The "Taurus Security System" (TSS): The Judge incorporates an integral keyed lock on the hammer. In rare instances, heavy recoil from .410 shells can cause internal lock components to fail, engaging the lock mechanism and preventing the gun from firing or the hammer from cocking.
  • Ballistic Compromise: For self-defense, the wide jump the bullet must make from the cylinder to the rifling—combined with a fast twist rate—can strip or deform projectiles, leading to erratic trajectories and poor penetration. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  
  3. Recommendations
  Because of these known limitations and the varying tolerances associated with budget-friendly revolvers, the Judge is widely considered by firearm instructors to be a poor primary choice for concealed carry or home defense. [1, 2, 3]

Thanks for the extra info. i see the flaws make it not so reliable.

 

[chilehed]

I'm aware of cases of .357 Magnum being successfully used against bear, but it's a pretty low-energy round. 10 mm is about the smallest you really want, it's got the benefit of a lot more rounds on board but the tradeoff is you're trying to stop a really big animal so pick your ammo carefully. Look for heavy bullets with lots of speed and deep penetration before they expand, but know that it's still only borderline effective on bear.

44 Mag would be better, lots more penetration but the tradeoff is fewer rounds and more recoil.

If I knew in advance I might need something for a really big bear I'd consider a .454 Casull; I've shot one before and it was brutal, significantly more powerful than the 44 Mag. I'd want to spend a lot of money getting familiar with handling it, follow-up shots would be a lot slower than the others but if you place the shot well you won't need so many.

 

[jacks]

Would bear spray be a viable alternative?

 

[chilehed]

Would bear spray be a viable alternative?

Bear spray is only ~98% effective, so no.

‘Bear attack bad’: final message of Canadian couple killed by grizzly

Officials say can of bear spray was emptied before attack in Banff national park in which Doug Inglis and Jenny Gusse, both 62, died

www.theguardian.com

 

[JosephZ]

Bear spray is only ~98% effective, so no.

Nothing is going to be 100% effective, but bear spray is a better option than a firearm for defending against a bear or wild animal attack.

 

[chilehed]

Nothing is going to be 100% effective, but bear spray is a better option than a firearm for defending against a bear or wild animal attack.

Tell that to the guy in Banff who found himself dead on the ground next to his dead wife, his dead dog, and two empty cans of the stuff. 98% isn't effective enough, which is why it's a much better option to carry a powerful firearm as well.

Certainly carry bear spray, but you better hope the wind is at your back when you need it . And note that that it took a gun to render that bear in Banff harmless, not more spray.

 

[Tuur]

Would bear spray be a viable alternative?

I once cleared the nozzle of hot pepper dog spray by pointing it into my office trash can and discharging it. Never. Again. Bear spray, which I assume is more potent, and dispenses larger quantities, most likely would be worse in close space.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Posting problems, deleted, see below.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Canada is Canada and its laws are its business. Will only observe that they seem city-folk oriented in that the default seems to be someone new to firearms who didn’t grow up around them. That is not an insult. I grew up in a family that hunted, plus the men had military experience and that carried over to firearms safety. Have witnessed a downright dangerous casualness in younger relations who didn’t grow up around hunting or someone with military experience. Like the time someone was about to walk in front of a firearm and some of us stopped them, but someone else uttered the dread words “It’s unloaded.” That prompted a discussion of fatalities caused by “unloaded” firearms.

Snip...

The AI info on the Taurus Judge sounds like, well, typical AI. Of course putting too long of a shell in it would cause problems. Timing issues and such can crop up in any revolver, just like if you have a revolver, it’s going to have a gap between cylinder and barrel. More an issue is the power of a .410 slug, plus rifled slugs don’t do well in rifled barrels so it would have to be one of those rounds designed for rifled shotgun barrels. The thing shoots a .45, and shot isn’t going to like that rifling, and they make rat shot anyway, so I don’t see the point.

I get that you drank the coolaid and despise canadians unilaterally. That's OK, we are not all that fond of the US right now either.

Now that we have that behind us, the only reason I included the AI info on the Judge was because it was a pretty accurate summation of dozens of articles, posts, and based on my friends personal experience with his. It is reliable enough for use as a range toy. BTW, Ruger and S & W are built in the US, the Judge is not.

I agree with you regarding felt recoil of the 357 vs 44 mag. My suggestion for hard cast lead for penetration and controlled expansion is based on anicdotal evidence of those who "wilderness carry" both .357 and .44 mag and who have used various loads. I also agree that competency is key. I shoot both a revolver and various semi autos, including a CZ in 9mm and a 1911 in .45, With no 10 round mag limitation in the US, yes, there would be an advantage with 10mm. I am more confident regarding reliability with a good double acton revolver.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm aware of cases of .357 Magnum being successfully used against bear, but it's a pretty low-energy round. 10 mm is about the smallest you really want, it's got the benefit of a lot more rounds on board but the tradeoff is you're trying to stop a really big animal so pick your ammo carefully. Look for heavy bullets with lots of speed and deep penetration before they expand, but know that it's still only borderline effective on bear.

44 Mag would be better, lots more penetration but the tradeoff is fewer rounds and more recoil.

If I knew in advance I might need something for a really big bear I'd consider a .454 Casull; I've shot one before and it was brutal, significantly more powerful than the 44 Mag. I'd want to spend a lot of money getting familiar with handling it, follow-up shots would be a lot slower than the others but if you place the shot well you won't need so many.

I would use these or hand load something similar. These are designed for deep penetration and controlled expansion. The flat point will shear a good sized hole to maximize wound changel.

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Field Proven handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interesting comparason between .357 and .44. good discussion on handgun recoil towards the end of the video:

 

[JosephZ]

I once cleared the nozzle of hot pepper dog spray by pointing it into my office trash can and discharging it. Never. Again. Bear spray, which I assume is more potent, and dispenses larger quantities, most likely would be worse in close space.

Even in the rare case that you are negatively affected by the bear spray, the chances of being harmed by the attacking animal would be very low. You're more likely to be injured or killed if using a firearm.

Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

Wind can influence bear spray’s accuracy and distance; however, our data show that wind rarely affected the outcome of bear–human interactions involving bear spray, which is likely because many close encounters do not occur in open areas, but rather in dense brush or forests where wind is greatly attenuated. High exit velocities of spray from cans likely compensates for cross-wind effects and may account for the low incidence of wind-related effects reported in Alaska. Of the 72 incidents we studied, 4 (6%) involved persons that had to leave the area to alleviate burning eyes and coughing. No one reported being incapacitated by spray, although one user said he had to move or he would have been overwhelmed.

Our research shows that bear deterrent spray is an effective tool for defusing bear–human conflict in a nonlethal manner. In Alaska, bear spray was highly effective in dealing with all 3 species of North American bears, although more data on polar bear responses is needed. Persons working and recreating in bear habitat should feel confident that they are safe if carrying bear spray. Although bear spray was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were uninjured after a close encounter with bears.

Firearms failed to protect people for a variety of reasons including lack of time to respond to the bear (27%), did not use the firearm (21%), mechanical issues (i.e., jamming; 14%), the proximity to bear was too close for deployment (9%), the shooter missed the bear (9%), the gun was emptied and could not be reloaded (8%), the safety mechanism was engaged and the person was unable to unlock it in time to use the gun (8%), people tripped and fell while trying to shoot the bear (3%), and the firearm’s discharge reportedly triggered the bear to charge that ended further use of the gun (1%).



(YouTube) Is Bear Spray Better than a Gun? Here's What 352 Aggressive Bear Encounters Taught Us...

Adventurer and biologist Stephan Kesting looks at four studies and 352 aggressive bear encounters in Alaska to see whether bear spray or firearms was more effective at deterring aggressive black, grizzly and polar bear behaviour. The results may surprise you, but data doesn't care about your feelings!