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You are conflating the two as expected.Lol. Do you understand? Nope I see you don’t.
It went over your head I see.
Do a study into the sacraments.The gospel is not the Lords supper. The gospel is for unbelievers . Only lost sinners need to gospel , it’s how one becomes saved, a believer.
Are you always this insulting ?Do a study into the sacraments.
I never said the gospel is the lords supper. Stop putting words in my mouth. That’s not nice.
Is this the way you discuss theology?
I know Greek and the words I use very carefully when discussing scripture . ItMight he a good idea to check your definitions also. And don’t be so quick to attack, makes you look silly.
Like I said you are making things personal . Stick to the topic not the person .Look in the mirror friend.
If you know Greek you would know what I am talking about and agree. But I think you want to argue and be right.I know Greek and the words I use very carefully when discussing scripture . It
I’m trying to friend. I suggest you do the same.Like I said you are making things personal . Stick to the topic not the person .
Understood. ThanksADVISOR HAT ON
Okay kids. Do NOT make me pull the car over.Stop the squabbling, and if you can’t play nice, then walk away.
ADVISOR HAT OFF
Not that Greek is of no matter here in 2 Peter 3:9, but I will make comment on this text.If you know Greek you would know what I am talking about and agree. But I think you want to argue and be right.
Amen!Not that Greek is of no matter here in 2 Peter 3:9, but I will make comment on this text.
What matters is the context and audience. When Peter says "...is patient toward you" he is referring to the audience of the epistle, the elect, that all of them reach repentance, thus it isn't to the world at large as proper exegesis limits its scope to the context.
The good thing for those who misuse it and say God wants every single soul ever saved is proven in this text (and it isn't) is that they too, if chosen will also reach repentance.
Can we witness seeing a person repent of their ways, and change? Yes, we can, and if they do, they are the ones God is patient toward.
See 3:10. Eventually, when we least expect it, the delay will end. Presumably that was part of his plan from the beginning, so it doesn’t involve any change in God.Then what of God’s patience and long suffering? When does God finally say, okay, that’s enough, I have been patient long enough!
If God is patient and not willing that any to perish but all to come to repentance. Does God change eventually? Is God not immutable?!
Instead of 3:10, it's better to look at the whole context. These one verse prof texting doesn't work. Never does.See 3:10. Eventually, when we least expect it, the delay will end. Presumably that was part of his plan from the beginning, so it doesn’t involve any change in God.
This reminds me of Is 53:10. It never works like you say as a proof text. On that we can agree friend.Instead of 3:10, it's better to look at the whole context. These one verse prof texting doesn't work. Never does.
Very sound doctrine, very lucid, and edifying.2Pet 3:9 is not a "proof text" that teaches God "wants" everybody to get saved. Usually, only part of the verse is read, as the norm with false teaching, only reading a part of a verse to teach a lie. Let's show the entire verse;
For God is not slack concerning His promise (The return of Jesus, the Day of the Lord) as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Words don't lie. Men lie. Translators lie. As with so many other verses, some chicanery was going on with translating Greek into English. First, let's look at the English word "willing." When I first started to study Scripture, I was positive that both Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon were both 100% reliable word study tools. I was told this, I had read this, and there was a consensus that "Yes, you can trust these books." But as time went on I found out that this is not the case.
Using my handy English-to-Biblical Greek translator on my phone, I typed in the word "willing." Up popped the Greek word prothymous. I then typed in "not willing." The resulting Greek word is aprothymos. I found this to be very strange because in the Greek text, the word boulomai is used in this verse. The only way "not willing" should have been used in a translation would be if aprothymos were found written in the Greek manuscripts used by the translators.
When we look up the word boulomai in Strong's Dictionary, we are told that the word means: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing:-be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing).
Thayer's definition:
1. to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded.
And the winner is Thayer's definition. Strong's definition is wrong. Not just wrong, but made-up! Unfortunately, Thayer's didn't stop there. He also added a secondary definition that aligns more with what Strong said.
2. willing as an affection, to desire.
Thayer's also included: Origin: middle voice of a primary verb. The middle voice is when the subject is directly affected by the action expressed from the verb. A verb is an action word, not a word used to describe intent, hope, wish, or desire. The Companion Bible gives an explanation to clarify the meaning.
"Synonymous words for "will" and "wish."
Thelo means to wish or desire. It is therefore, stronger than boulomai because the natural impulse is stronger than the reasoned resolve. The noun thelema must also be noted as denoting desire rather than resolve. In like manner, the noun boulema is to be distinguished from thelema as denoting resolve, counsel, or determination.
In other words, if the concept of "willing," "desire," or "hope" were what Peter intended to express, a Greek word form of thelema would be found in the Greek text instead of boulomai!
The English word "all" is the Greek word pas. Pas is used in two ways in Scripture, 1. To mean each, every, the whole, everyone. 2. Some of all types. Bible Study Tools writes, "The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture, and IT IS VERY RARELY THAT THE "ALL" MEANS "ALL PERSONS." THE WORDS ARE GENERALLY USED TO SIGNIFY THAT CHRIST HAS REDEEMED SOME OF ALL SORTS, SOME JEWS, SOME GENTILES, SOME RICH. SOME POOR...
Let's look at the phrase "should come." If we look at the Greek text, we find the word choreo. I haven't studied this Greek word before, but it doesn't mean "should come." It has a number of different definitions that I am not going to list. First, there are only three Greek words that have been translated into the English word "should," dei, mello , and opheilo. None of these words are a part of 2Pet3:9 in the Greek.
There are 60 Greek words that have been translated into the English word "come." The word choreo is only translated into the word "come" one time. Now, let's look at the other verses that use the word.
Mat 15:17 "...in at the mouth goeth into the belly..."
Mat 19:11 "...said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying..."
Mat 19:12 "...He that is able to receive."
Mk 2:2 "...insomuch that there was no room to receive them..."
John 2:6 "...containing two or three..."
John 8:37 "...because my word hath no place in you..."
John 21:25 "that even the world could not contain the books."
2Cor 7:2 "Receive us..."
From how this word is translated in these other verses, it is plain to see that choreo has nothing to do with "come to repentance. After typing "should come" into the translator tool, the Greek came out prepei na erthei. This is not found in any Greek manuscript for 2Pet 3:9!
Finally, where the English reads "should perish" and "should come" are not in the original text! By incorrectly putting the word "should" into the translation inserts the idea of "possibility," "may," or "what an individual can choose to do." Once again, creating the illusion that Arianism is how one "gets" saved instead of God predestinating those He chose to save.
Who is Peter writing to in this book? He is writing to those who are saved, those who believe, the sheep. He didn't write this as some open letter to be circulated among unbelievers, inviting them to get saved! So, when we see the word "us" in the verse, he talks about the saved! The verse should be translated "not willing that any of US," not simply using the word "any" alone. CONTEXT PLEASE!
What Peter is communicating in this verse is, God is patience, delaying the Day of the Lord, because it is His will/purpose/plan that all of the sheep (in the history of the world until Jesus returns) will not perish but will repent before Jesus returns. Not one sheep will be lost. At some point in time, the very last sheep will be born and there won't be anymore. You have to remember that Peter and the apostles, Paul and all of the believers in the 1st century believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime. That is why Peter wrote this in the way he did, as if the return of Jesus was imminent. If you recall, the believers in Thessalonica were afraid because false teachers told them that the Day of the Lord had already happened and they had missed it.
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