[2009-06-15] Change Is Possible for Gays, Says Psychologist

[eastcoast_bsc]

What should he have said that would be more in line with Catholic teaching, as you understand it?

He should have quoted the position of the Church void of his own personal feelings.

No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

It is by Faith, by His stripes we are healed. The Divorcee, Alcoholic, Drug etc. None are righteous, no NOT one. So if the OP is to be considered evil, so are we all.

 

[CoyoteUgly]

He should have quoted the position of the Church void of his own personal feelings.


No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

It is by Faith, by His stripes we are healed. The Divorcee, Alcoholic, Drug etc. None are righteous, no NOT one. So if the OP is to be considered evil, so are we all.

So are you saying that the position of the Catholic church is that if anyone calls homosexuals evil, they are to by compared to vipers, deceitful, worthless?

Is that your own personal position on who Bafriend is, or is it the Churches teaching of what kind of person he is?

Also, more directly stating my opening question, what would be the position of the Catholic church on homosexuality, according to you? How does your opinion differ from Bafriends, or from your Church's?

I get the impression from your post that since everybody is a sinner, it is all about the same, best not to say anything at all for or against homosexuality?
Is that what you believe the Catholic Church is teaching you?

 

[D'Ann]

The actual act of sin... any sin, whether it be adultery, fornication, lying, cheating, robbing, killing... in God's eyes, it's all evil.

The person is not evil, but the behavior is evil. We belong to Christ, but we still have our old sin nature too and it is true that the flesh wars against the spirit in all of us who call on Jesus as our Lord and hope of salvation.

(although, I do also believe that they are some human beings who are possessed with evil, like Hitler and charles Manson and Saddam Hussein and serial killers... I think they are pure evil.. but there is always hope as long as a person is living for them to turn to Christ and repent and be forgiven by Christ for their sins... the ones that are alive that is).

I hope this helps answer your question Coyote.

 

[CoyoteUgly]

.....

I hope this helps answer your question Coyote.

I am actually more interested in hearing EastCoast might answer the question. Bafriends response is clear enough, as was Joab Anias', but I am not sure exactly what EastCoast believes personally.

On the other hand, do you feel that the verse quoted about 'vipers' and 'ruin and misery marking thier ways' is an appropriate response to Bafriend's posts here?

 

[CoyoteUgly]

I guess what I am basically looking for is a paragraph or two from Catholics, not on where BA went wrong, but on what he should have said that would have been better.

 

[D'Ann]

Hi Coyote Ugly,

If people started discussing BA's post and what not... it would be kinda like flaming him... and/or baiting him and/or goading him and therefore... posts would end up getting deleted and all of that stuff... and I would really like for that NOT to happen.

The bottom line is what does God think? What does the Bible teach? And this being the OBOB aka Catholic, what does the Catholic Church teach. What I think or what others think, it's minor ... because the bottom line is we all are human and we all have our own way of expression and therefore in this kind of thread, it's best that we don't get too personal, imho.

 

[Polycarp1]

D'Ann -- can anyone find and repost or link to the teaching of the National College of Catholic Bishops, probably about 1996 or so, on the subject? I thought it maintained a nice balance between keeping the moral law and following the spiritual law of showing compassion.

 

[D'Ann]

I guess this is great considering that the Church holds a homosexual orientation as being intrinsically and objectively evil because it leads one to sin.

Just to clarify, when you state this, you really mean, not the person being evil, but their behavior aka parts of their lifestyle being evil? We all have things in our behavior and/or lifestyle that is evil and that we all strive to overcome those evil sins with God's grace and help of Christ.

I also believe there is a difference between a Christian who acknowledges that they are struggling and sinning while they are praying it through and trying to overcome with God's grace verses someone who denies that they are living in sin or denying that their lifestyle is a sin and they try and justify their sin, while they try and make Christianity conform to them instead of them conforming to Christ and Christianity.

However, the Church also differentiates between a 'gay' lifestyle' and a homosexual orientation.

My understanding of what you mean is that you are saying that the Church recognizes that some people may lean towards being attracted to the same sex and they daily struggle with overcoming this part of their being. They recognize this could be some type of chemistry in their body or some type of genetics that causes them to be attracted to the same sex. They also may recognize that it's also built into them by their environment and perhaps some things that they were taught by teachers and/or parents and/or neighbors verses someone who is living sexually the gay life style without remorse or sorrow or repentence. At the same time, because we don't know what is in another's heart, we don't know if the Holy Spirit is working on someone's heart and mind about this stuff either and so we should never stop loving and caring and praying and being a kind and decent human being to all people.

The Church also holds that sexual relations outside marriage is a worse sin for same sex couples as their relationship can never be made right in the eyes of God like can be done for heterosexuals.

Actually, I'm not sure if the Church teaches that an active sexual homosexual life style is a worse sin then adultery or fornication. I think they all go under the same label of sin.

Anyway- regardless if change is possible or not, there is no gay loophole for homosexuals when it comes to adultery, fornication, scandal. There is no license to sin whether you are hetero, homosexual, pedophile... whatever.

Why do we always forget to include "bisexual". The bottom line though is this... WE ALL SIN and have come short of the glory of God and it is better to love and care and pray then to tell people how horrible we all are... because we all are sinners and we all have parts of us that are horrible... the only hope any of us have is in Christ.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

D'Ann -- can anyone find and repost or link to the teaching of the National College of Catholic Bishops, probably about 1996 or so, on the subject? I thought it maintained a nice balance between keeping the moral law and following the spiritual law of showing compassion.

Do you mean Always Our Children?

 

[D'Ann]

D'Ann -- can anyone find and repost or link to the teaching of the National College of Catholic Bishops, probably about 1996 or so, on the subject? I thought it maintained a nice balance between keeping the moral law and following the spiritual law of showing compassion.

I'll see if I can find it. Thanks.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Anne heche was proof that people can change their sexual preference and that it's a choice.
.

 

[CoyoteUgly]

D'Ann -- can anyone find and repost or link to the teaching of the National College of Catholic Bishops, probably about 1996 or so, on the subject? I thought it maintained a nice balance between keeping the moral law and following the spiritual law of showing compassion.

That is an interesting response from an Episcopalian, where homosexuality is accepted as potentially moral.
Does that mean that you idea of what morality is vis-avis the question of homosexuality is more in tune with Catholic teaching than it is with the Episcopalian?

 

[CoyoteUgly]

Anne heche was proof that people can change their sexual preference and that it's a choice.
.

East Coast has unwittingly introduced some antecdotal evidence to the same effect on this very thread, albeit in the opposite direction. He speaks of heterosexual men quite capable of receiving sexual thrills through homosexual acts.
Kinsey, whose research was instrumental in getting homosexuality taken off the APA's list of pyscholgical disorders, led him to the conclusion that human sexuality was in fact quite malleable.
I suppose that it is possible that the research thatlled to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a disorder could have led to the right course of action by happenstance.

 

[CoyoteUgly]

Hi Coyote Ugly,

If people started discussing BA's post and what not... it would be kinda like flaming him... and/or baiting him and/or goading him and therefore... posts would end up getting deleted and all of that stuff... and I would really like for that NOT to happen.

The bottom line is what does God think? What does the Bible teach? And this being the OBOB aka Catholic, what does the Catholic Church teach. What I think or what others think, it's minor ... because the bottom line is we all are human and we all have our own way of expression and therefore in this kind of thread, it's best that we don't get too personal, imho.

It certainly wasn't my intent to keep on discussing BAfriend, especially since he hasn't been present lately to offer his own explanations.
It seems though that his response keeps coming up, even though I am asking for a response from specific Christians here that is something quite different from a continued discussion of his particular response.


But I certainly can re-pose the same question to you again in general terms. When Christian/Catholic posters say that homosexual orientation is evil, are you okay with a admitted disdainful response that compares them to vipers and otherwise worthless human beings?



Not just as a Catholic but as a Catholic moderator, I think that a specific response from you personally would be rather enlightening of what kind ov culture you would like to sculpt for OBOB.

Might this be construed to be, as you say, baiting or flaming?

and if so, then what?

 

[CoyoteUgly]

The bottom line is what does God think? What does the Bible teach? And this being the OBOB aka Catholic, what does the Catholic Church teach. What I think or what others think, it's minor....

Addressing this point specifically, wouldn't the spirit of Vatican II lead Catholics to believe that they are very much a part of the evangelizing spirit of the Church, and therefore that the way that they express themselves is not minor, but in fact of major import?

If Catholics are being called to be the hands and heart of God, how could this not be so?

When it comes to actual evangelizing, I would think that what Catholics are actually saying would be of primary importance. This would seem to me to be the front line of evangelizing of Catholicism into the world.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Yes, but this all seems like an avoidance of what I am asking you. You say that it is wrong to call people evil, according to scripture. This is well and good-you have made this abundantly clear- and you certainly are capable of expressing disdain for certain kinds of behavior.

This is fully understood.

But, if the post of unnamed poster is the wrong response to homosexuality, what in you own words is the correct response?

I for example can go to scripture and read about sexual abominations with hellish consequences. It that the correct verses for a Catholic to quote to homosexuals, then, in your opinon?

I am trying to be specific for the third time now. What does your Catholic faith motivate you to believe about homosexuality?

There was a homosexual , for example that came onto this thread with his own life experience. Would the correct Catholic response be one of pity for him?

Or just silence that he received?


I understand what you comprehend to be the incorrect attitude toward homosexuality.
So what is the correct attitude now?

I am not avoiding the the question. Just because you don't like the answers that I have given, does not mean the question was left unaswered.

My answers were Biblical and scriptural, I think the issue is, that you are somehow seperating the word of God and Catholicism.

Would it not be true, that if my answer was based upon scripture, that ipso facto, it would be a Catholic answer ?

 

[CoyoteUgly]

I am not avoiding the the question. Just because you don't like the answers that I have given, does not mean the question was left unaswered.

My answers were Biblical and scriptural, I think the issue is, that you are somehow separating the word of God and Catholicism.

Would it not be true, that if my answer was based upon scripture, that ipso facto, it would be a Catholic answer ?

Your answer was indirect. Nevertheless, if this is the answer you are happy with, then it has led me to believe that scripture informs you that homosexuality is akin to drug addiction, prostitution, and other injured forms of life that are to be pitied. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth by being left with the impression that you regard homosexuality, as Anne does, as something akin to adultery and other sexual sins as being immoral and disordered.
This is what I think that both you and Anne are saying that homosexuality and homosexual orientation are to be compared with.
Whether you believe God made homosexuals that way or not, I have no way of knowing, but implicit in your statements is that the urges are not good ones, and there would be weakness of will involved in succumbing to the immorality that the urges compel people toward.

In a way, it remains true to the experience of Francais who also feels that homosexuality is aptly compared to drug addiction as below:

However, just because it is a sin, doesn't mean that homosexuals choose their same sex desires.We all have sinful desires; whether it be with someone of the opposite sex, with drugs/alcohol, etc. However, just because you may WANT to do these things, doesn't mean you should. Or doesn't make it right.

It is interesting then, to juxtapose Bafriend's idea on this, in describing this predilection as being in itself evil.
We might then ask which spiritual force is leading us into temptation? Is it God putting us to the test, or is it Satan?

Does scripture lead you to believe that it is God that made us this way, that it is God who is directly testing us, or is it Satan leading us into temptation?

If the predilection is not in itself evil, but succumbing to it is, what is the source of the predilection? Is the source of the predilection found in God, or in the Evil One?

or....?


PS.
To answer your question, though that is certainly not my place to do so here in a Catholic forum, I would have to say that there are very many Christians who answer with scripture quite fervently and sincerely and entirely based in scripture, yet their answers differ enormously from the answers that a Catholic might give. the women in Revelation being either Israel or Mary is but one minor example of this.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Your answer was indirect. Nevertheless, if this is the answer you are happy with, then it has led me to believe that scripture informs you that homosexuality is akin to drug addiction, prostitution, and other injured forms of life that are to be pitied. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth by being left with the impression that you regard homosexuality, as Anne does, as something akin to adultery and other sexual sins as being immoral and disordered.
This is what I think that both you and Anne are saying that homosexuality and homosexual orientation are to be compared with.
Whether you believe God made homosexuals that way or not, I have no way of knowing, but implicit in your statements is that the urges are not good ones, and there would be weakness of will involved in succumbing to the immorality that the urges compel people toward.

In a way, it remains true to the experience of Francais who also feels that homosexuality is aptly compared to drug addiction as below:



It is interesting then, to juxtapose Bafriend's idea on this, in describing this predilection as being in itself evil.
We might then ask which spiritual force is leading us into temptation? Is it God putting us to the test, or is it Satan?

Does scripture lead you to believe that it is God that made us this way, that it is God who is directly testing us, or is it Satan leading us into temptation?

If the predilection is not in itself evil, but succumbing to it is, what is the source of the predilection? Is the source of the predilection found in God, or in the Evil One?

or....?


PS.
To answer your question, though that is certainly not my place to do so here in a Catholic forum, I would have to say that there are very many Christians who answer with scripture quite fervently and sincerely and entirely based in scripture, yet their answers differ enormously from the answers that a Catholic might give. the women in Revelation being either Israel or Mary is but one minor example of this.

No the point was and still is, that I believe the word evil was inserted erroneously into the catholiic churchs stance on Homosexuality.

I believe the intent was to hurt and disparage those who are Gay. It seems some find it sport to point their finger at certain groups of people and attache the word evil, whether its purpose is to be a Noun or an Adjective, both are wrong.

 

[D'Ann]

MOD HAT

This thread will remain closed. The OP has been discussed and answered.