20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

Both of you guys keep doing the same thing. Taking multiple events and rolling it into a single event.

There are 2 events described, Jesus returning on a white horse and slaying people with a sword coming out of His mouth, and consuming the entire planet in the fire of His jealousy. They're not the same thing or the same event. It doesn't matter how much scripture you throw at me describing the world being consumed in fire, because I believe that is going to happen too. But I place it at the end of Revelation 20, not in Revelation 19. One has fire from heaven, the other does not.

Why the insistence on combining events that are described as different events?
You have to understand that Revelation as a book is a key to the chronology of all other prophetic scripture. That's its point. To give you details and timing of things that have been more vague elsewhere in the bible.

That's why Daniel was told to seal up some things, because they were not to be revealed yet, people in the old testament times were not ready to deal with the full truth. Only after having the complete bible were we given the chronology. In earlier books, the rapture, second coming, and end of the world all sound like it's all happening simultaneously, but Revelation shows that there are time between these events. The sun and moon darkening in the sky as Jesus tells His disciples in the Olivet Discourse is not the destruction of the world as the rest of the Olivet Discourse seems to read out, but it's the gathering of His saints, and Revelation gives us the timing of the event. It's in the middle, at the 6th seal. Things still happen after that, so it's not the end of the world.

You keep talking about "a plain reading" and yet you won't do a plain reading of chapter 20. You reject the chapter and make an abstraction of it that makes it meaningless. If you had your way you'd just rip out the part of the page John was writing for everything above verse 11.

I have a friend who did this when we were younger, we'd be telling stories to new friends and he'd basically combine every crazy thing we did over an entire summer into one night and I'd have to remind him that one thing happened in June, another thing happened in July.. etc.
You guys are reminding me of him, combining all end time prophecy into a single instantaneous moment.

This is all personal opinion. This is not evidence.

Where your theology falls apart is the fact that you cannot corroborate anything that you are advancing. You're trying to insert a thousand years into text after text where it does not fit or exist. Well, that must be frustrating. The good news is, you do not need to pitch your tent there anymore. Embrace what the Bible teaches: it teaches a climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Men or either saved or lost, they are either caught up or caught on, it is either heaven or hell.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Both of you guys keep doing the same thing. Taking multiple events and rolling it into a single event.

There are 2 events described, Jesus returning on a white horse and slaying people with a sword coming out of His mouth, and consuming the entire planet in the fire of His jealousy. They're not the same thing or the same event. It doesn't matter how much scripture you throw at me describing the world being consumed in fire, because I believe that is going to happen too. But I place it at the end of Revelation 20, not in Revelation 19. One has fire from heaven, the other does not.

Why the insistence on combining events that are described as different events?
You have to understand that Revelation as a book is a key to the chronology of all other prophetic scripture. That's its point. To give you details and timing of things that have been more vague elsewhere in the bible.

That's why Daniel was told to seal up some things, because they were not to be revealed yet, people in the old testament times were not ready to deal with the full truth. Only after having the complete bible were we given the chronology. In earlier books, the rapture, second coming, and end of the world all sound like it's all happening simultaneously, but Revelation shows that there are time between these events. The sun and moon darkening in the sky as Jesus tells His disciples in the Olivet Discourse is not the destruction of the world as the rest of the Olivet Discourse seems to read out, but it's the gathering of His saints, and Revelation gives us the timing of the event. It's in the middle, at the 6th seal. Things still happen after that, so it's not the end of the world.

You keep talking about "a plain reading" and yet you won't do a plain reading of chapter 20. You reject the chapter and make an abstraction of it that makes it meaningless. If you had your way you'd just rip out the part of the page John was writing for everything above verse 11.

I have a friend who did this when we were younger, we'd be telling stories to new friends and he'd basically combine every crazy thing we did over an entire summer into one night and I'd have to remind him that one thing happened in June, another thing happened in July.. etc.
You guys are reminding me of him, combining all end time prophecy into a single instantaneous moment.

Who are qualified to escape the destruction of Christ upon the wicked and on what grounds when Jesus comes?

If the saved are all rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are all destroyed: who is this 3rd group of humans that are too wicked to be raptured yet too righteous to be destroyed that escape the wrath of God and inherit the new earth?

 

[Jamdoc]

Did Jesus say the wicked tares are gathered first and thrown into the "fire", before the wheat is gathered into the barn, in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13?

Is the "fire" found at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Did Paul describe Christ returning "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

Does Peter describe the earth being "burned" on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


Can you explain why the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the end of chapter 20?


.

Because Revelation starts over at the birth of Christ in chapter 12. There's parallel timelines in revelation

Chapter 6 is the first 6 seals, and I see chapter 13 as happening simultaneously with it
Chapter 7 and 14 are parallel
Chapter 8-9 and 15-16 are parallel up until the last vial in 16
Chapter 11 parallels chapter 16's end, and 18, and 19, and maybe even the end of 20. Different details are given. Chapter 8 and 9 give more detail on the first 6 plagues. Chapter 13 gives more detail on what's happening in the seals, and chapter 18-20 give a lot more detail about what happens after the 7th plague.
Revelation could have ended in chapter 11. But God wanted to give more detail.

Now you mention the wheat and tares, but didn't Jesus also say that the sun and moon would darken after the tribulation of those days and He'd gather His elect? Revelation has that event in chapter 6, before the trumpets and vials. So the elect are gathered, and those who are left, there's your wheat and tares, at the great white throne of judgement at the end of chapter 20 is when they're separating out the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats.

Tell me, what do you believe is happening in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, if it's not when Jesus gathers the elect from the four winds?

 

[Jamdoc]

This is all personal opinion. This is not evidence.

Where your theology falls apart is the fact that you cannot corroborate anything that you are advancing. You're trying to insert a thousand years into text after text where it does not fit or exist. Well, that must be frustrating. The good news is, you do not need to pitch your tent there anymore. Embrace what the Bible teaches: it teaches a climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Men or either saved or lost, they are either caught up or caught on, it is either heaven or hell.

and you're trying to remove 1000 years out of text because it doesn't fit your theology.

 

[Jamdoc]

Who are qualified to escape the destruction of Christ upon the wicked and on what grounds?

If the saved are all rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are all destroyed: who is this 3rd group of humans that are too wicked to be raptured yet too righteous to be destroyed that escape the wrath of God and inherit the new earth?

Because I see the saved being rescued in chapter 6 when the sun and moon darken as described in Matthew 24:29-31. Then if there is years of the wrath of God being poured out on Earth before Jesus comes on a white horse, and 144,000 sealed preaching the Gospel to those left on the earth, and the 2 witnesses, there's bound to be some people saved, and there's bound to be new children born and raised during this time. they missed on the first resurrection, they have to wait for the 2nd, they're among the "rest of the dead" that will not live again until the thousand years is finished.

If Jesus came back in 1 cataclysmic event and torched the whole world in Chapter 6, there'd be no 144,000 sealed, there'd be no two witnesses, there'd be no trumpets and vials, and there would be no rapture or gathering the elect, there'd just be everyone dies, gets resurrected in the single resurrection (that is the 2nd resurrection as it's given in the bible) and judged.

But we're given a first resurrection 1000 years before a 2nd resurrection
We're given seven trumpets and 7 vials after the sun and moon are darkened and the elect are gathered
We're given 144,000 sealed and 2 witnesses doing... SOMETHING.. please tell me what you think they're doing if Jesus destroys the entire planet before they're even first mentioned in Revelation?

You're going to have to explain what you think happens in Revelation 6 when the sun and moon are darkening if it's not when the elect are gathered as in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4.
You're going to have to explain what the point of the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 and 14 are for, and if you don't believe that those chapters are parallel, you're going to have to explain why there's 2 groups of 144,000.
You're going to have to explain what the point of the 2 witnesses is

 

[7xlightray]

This is so wrong on so many fronts. Jesus was/is/ and always will be God. He knew what He was teaching.

I think we need to clear this up first..

Are you saying Jesus is the Father?
Are you saying the person (the Lamb), that is taking the book out of the other person's hand (who is sitting on the throne), is the same person?
Are you saying the Word did not become flesh, born man?

But let me also say this..
I did not say Jesus did not know what He was teaching. What I am saying is, He did not know what was written in the scroll sealed with seven seals. And to remind you, Jesus also did not know the day, or hour of His return, only the Father.

And this, one more time..
He gave them the times or seasons for Pentecost, but for restoring the kingdom to Israel, He did not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think we need to clear this up first..

Are you saying Jesus is the Father?
Are you saying the person (the Lamb), that is taking the book out of the other person's hand (who is sitting on the throne), is the same person?
Are you saying the Word did not become flesh, born man?

But let me also say this..
I did not say Jesus did not know what He was teaching. What I am saying is, He did not know what was written in the scroll sealed with seven seals. And to remind you, Jesus also did not know the day, or hour of His return, only the Father.

And this, one more time..
He gave them the times or seasons for Pentecost, but for restoring the kingdom to Israel, He did not.

These questions are absolutely ridiculous. They result from me simply arguing that Jesus was both man and God at the same time. This is a very elementary belief within Christianity. I thought you believed it as well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Because I see the saved being rescued in chapter 6 when the sun and moon darken as described in Matthew 24:29-31. Then if there is years of the wrath of God being poured out on Earth before Jesus comes on a white horse, and 144,000 sealed preaching the Gospel to those left on the earth, and the 2 witnesses, there's bound to be some people saved, and there's bound to be new children born and raised during this time. they missed on the first resurrection, they have to wait for the 2nd, they're among the "rest of the dead" that will not live again until the thousand years is finished.

If Jesus came back in 1 cataclysmic event and torched the whole world in Chapter 6, there'd be no 144,000 sealed, there'd be no two witnesses, there'd be no trumpets and vials, and there would be no rapture or gathering the elect, there'd just be everyone dies, gets resurrected in the single resurrection (that is the 2nd resurrection as it's given in the bible) and judged.

But we're given a first resurrection 1000 years before a 2nd resurrection
We're given seven trumpets and 7 vials after the sun and moon are darkened and the elect are gathered
We're given 144,000 sealed and 2 witnesses doing... SOMETHING.. please tell me what you think they're doing if Jesus destroys the entire planet before they're even first mentioned in Revelation?

You're going to have to explain what you think happens in Revelation 6 when the sun and moon are darkening if it's not when the elect are gathered as in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4.
You're going to have to explain what the point of the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 and 14 are for, and if you don't believe that those chapters are parallel, you're going to have to explain why there's 2 groups of 144,000.
You're going to have to explain what the point of the 2 witnesses is

Please stop avoiding:

Who are qualified to escape the destruction of Christ upon the wicked and on what grounds when Jesus comes?

If the saved are all rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are all destroyed: who is this 3rd group of humans that are too wicked to be raptured yet too righteous to be destroyed that escape the wrath of God and inherit the new earth?

 

[sovereigngrace]

and you're trying to remove 1000 years out of text because it doesn't fit your theology.

No, Scripture repeatedly uses 'a thousand' in a figurative manner. Why would we take it literal in the most symbolic book in the Bible? You always seem to want to spiritualize the literal passages and literalize the spiritual passages in order to sustain Premil. Revelation is saturated in symbolism, and a thousand is used to describe a large undefined figure frequently in Scripture. Simple! The fact is, the millennium starts at the first resurrection. There was no resurrection before Christ's resurrection. It was the first resurrection.

 

[7xlightray]

These questions are absolutely ridiculous. They result from me simply arguing that Jesus was both man and God at the same time. This is a very elementary belief within Christianity. I thought you believed it as well.

No, that is not where they resulted from.

I did not say you have to reply to my points in #778 and #786, only if you want to continue this discussion, because they are important to the discussion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, that is not where they resulted from.

I did not say you have to reply to my points in #778 and #786, only if you want to continue this discussion, because they are important to the discussion.

Jesus is God and man!

 

[7xlightray]

Jesus is God and man!

If you believe the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, then you need to consider, or address my points, not for my benefit, but for your own.

 

[BABerean2]

Because Revelation starts over at the birth of Christ in chapter 12. There's parallel timelines in revelation

Chapter 6 is the first 6 seals, and I see chapter 13 as happening simultaneously with it
Chapter 7 and 14 are parallel
Chapter 8-9 and 15-16 are parallel up until the last vial in 16
Chapter 11 parallels chapter 16's end, and 18, and 19, and maybe even the end of 20. Different details are given. Chapter 8 and 9 give more detail on the first 6 plagues. Chapter 13 gives more detail on what's happening in the seals, and chapter 18-20 give a lot more detail about what happens after the 7th plague.
Revelation could have ended in chapter 11. But God wanted to give more detail.

Now you mention the wheat and tares, but didn't Jesus also say that the sun and moon would darken after the tribulation of those days and He'd gather His elect? Revelation has that event in chapter 6, before the trumpets and vials. So the elect are gathered, and those who are left, there's your wheat and tares, at the great white throne of judgement at the end of chapter 20 is when they're separating out the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats.

Tell me, what do you believe is happening in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, if it's not when Jesus gathers the elect from the four winds?

The Second Coming of Christ is found several times in the Book of Revelation.

It is found in chapter 6 with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are in the Olivet Discourse. Why are those at the end of the chapter hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present?

It is found with the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, in Revelation 11:15-18.

It is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares.

It is found when He comes as a thief at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

It is found in chapter 19.

It is also found at the end of chapter 20 when the fire comes, and once again the judgment of the dead.

.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If you believe the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, then you need to consider, or address my points, not for my benefit, but for your own.

i believe in the Trinity. Why would you even question this? This looks like a distractions to avoid addressing the errors of Premil.

 

[Jamdoc]

Please stop avoiding:

Who are qualified to escape the destruction of Christ upon the wicked and on what grounds when Jesus comes?

If the saved are all rescued when Jesus comes and the wicked are all destroyed: who is this 3rd group of humans that are too wicked to be raptured yet too righteous to be destroyed that escape the wrath of God and inherit the new earth?

Please stop missing that I don't believe that there's only 1 event where Jesus returns and destroys everything but rather 2 events, Jesus returns, destroys the armies at Armageddon, and then rules for 1000 years, then there's a last act of rebellion, and then Jesus destroys the world in fire.
The only qualification is that they were not a part of the armies that came to Armageddon, and were alive up to that point. I don't think that every single person on this planet will amass in Armageddon.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Please stop missing that I don't believe that there's only 1 event where Jesus returns and destroys everything but rather 2 events, Jesus returns, destroys the armies at Armageddon, and then rules for 1000 years, then there's a last act of rebellion, and then Jesus destroys the world in fire.
The only qualification is that they were not a part of the armies that came to Armageddon, and were alive up to that point. I don't think that every single person on this planet will amass in Armageddon.

So, you localize the destruction to just Armageddon area in Jerusalem?

 

[Jamdoc]

The Second Coming of Christ is found several times in the Book of Revelation.

It is found in chapter 6 with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are in the Olivet Discourse. Why are those at the end of the chapter hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present?

It is found with the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, in Revelation 11:15-18.

It is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares.

It is found when He comes as a thief at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

It is found in chapter 19.

It is also found at the end of chapter 20 when the fire comes, and once again the judgment of the dead.

.

There's a few problems with that chronologically speaking.
First, the 6th seal, where yes, Jesus is in the clouds but is not the same event as Revelation 19 where He comes down to the mount of olives on a white horse.
Second, I want to point out that the first words in Revelation 7:1 And after these things.. this is when we're introduced to the 144,000.
What is their point, if Jesus has returned and already destroyed all the wicked in your view? They do not happen before the 6th seal, they happen between the 6th seal and 7th seal. Which btw, comes in Chapter 8, and that's when the trumpets happen.

But in your view, Jesus came back in Chapter 6, and all the wicked are already destroyed? How do you have locusts with scorpion stings that cause pain for five months (Revelation 9:10), if the entire world has been destroyed near instantaneously by the 2nd coming of Christ?

The bible gives us a chronology of seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, sun and moon are darkened, Jesus coming in the clouds/rapture, 144,000 sealed, seal 7, 7 trumpets.
It also gives us a chronology of birth, and ascension of Christ, Satan cast out of heaven, the reign of the beast and great tribulation, the 144,000, then the harvest
Then it gives a chronology of seven vials (I had to look I guess "and after these things" is not mentioned in chapter 15 so I can't 100% for sure place the vials after the harvest, but since the trumpets do come after the 144,000 and they are in chapter 14, I still think it is sequential), and the destruction of Babylon (and after these things IS the opening words of Revelation 18, so it is after the vials), and Jesus coming on a white horse/Armageddon (Chapter 19 starts with again "and after these things")
I suppose Chapter 20 does not start with "and after these things"
However, I think the 1000 year detail between first and second resurrection is restated too many times to be taken as just a figure of speech/abstract.

But I line up chronologies by common things between them, such as the vials and trumpets seeming to be related so I have them as parallel events, and the 144000 also seem to be parallel.

 

[Jamdoc]

So, you localize the destruction to just Armageddon area in Jerusalem?

Yes, because He still has a planet to rule for 1000 years, Revelation 11:15. He's not talking about a new heaven and new earth he's talking about this earth. The earth is delivered over to Jesus Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes, because He still has a planet to rule for 1000 years, Revelation 11:15. He's not talking about a new heaven and new earth he's talking about this earth. The earth is delivered over to Jesus Christ.

Then you are talking about a sick miserable satanic messed up sinful mortal world that Christ inherits.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There's a few problems with that chronologically speaking.
First, the 6th seal, where yes, Jesus is in the clouds but is not the same event as Revelation 19 where He comes down to the mount of olives on a white horse.
Second, I want to point out that the first words in Revelation 7:1 And after these things.. this is when we're introduced to the 144,000.
What is their point, if Jesus has returned and already destroyed all the wicked in your view? They do not happen before the 6th seal, they happen between the 6th seal and 7th seal. Which btw, comes in Chapter 8, and that's when the trumpets happen.

But in your view, Jesus came back in Chapter 6, and all the wicked are already destroyed? How do you have locusts with scorpion stings that cause pain for five months (Revelation 9:10), if the entire world has been destroyed near instantaneously by the 2nd coming of Christ?

The bible gives us a chronology of seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, sun and moon are darkened, Jesus coming in the clouds/rapture, 144,000 sealed, seal 7, 7 trumpets.
It also gives us a chronology of birth, and ascension of Christ, Satan cast out of heaven, the reign of the beast and great tribulation, the 144,000, then the harvest
Then it gives a chronology of seven vials (I had to look I guess "and after these things" is not mentioned in chapter 15 so I can't 100% for sure place the vials after the harvest, but since the trumpets do come after the 144,000 and they are in chapter 14, I still think it is sequential), and the destruction of Babylon (and after these things IS the opening words of Revelation 18, so it is after the vials), and Jesus coming on a white horse/Armageddon (Chapter 19 starts with again "and after these things")
I suppose Chapter 20 does not start with "and after these things"
However, I think the 1000 year detail between first and second resurrection is restated too many times to be taken as just a figure of speech/abstract.

But I line up chronologies by common things between them, such as the vials and trumpets seeming to be related so I have them as parallel events, and the 144000 also seem to be parallel.

Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith.

John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Those who have eyes to see will get the thrust of the book! I didn’t say that you would get every minute detail. But you should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

Revelation has several recapitulations. It is telling the story from different camera views. What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation was not intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.

Why then read it?

· Our main objective when reading Revelation should be to identify Christ and recognize His omnipotent power. Without that epiphany you will never be effective.
· Our second objective should be to use that revelation to propel us into victorious Christian living on this earth. We should explain the symbols of Revelation in terms of our present mission. We should use the spiritual truths contained in the apocalypse to assist us in our faithful living and in regard to our endurance to the end. The truths within this obscure book should engender faith, boldness and hope. It should help us understand spiritual warfare.

One thing you quickly learn in Scripture, and find in Revelation, is that the battle should not be in here in God’s house but rather out there in the devil’s playground.

· The devil wants the battle to be in here, in God’s house, so that the people of God are turning on themselves and are therefore impotent.
· The Holy Spirit wants the battle to be out there in the devil’s playing field so that we can be stripping Satan of his power and influence.

Most honest Bible students will acknowledge that Revelation is the most difficult books in the Bible to understand.