2 witnesses of revelation

[inhimitrust]

Could someone please give me the most accurate translation of this verse? I am translating the "2 witnesses" as I believe they figuratively represent "Christ"[law/prophet; spiritual Moses/Elijah(zech 4 and 6)], but because revelation is so figurative and alleghorical and full of the same jewish symbology and figuratism of the OT, I need someone spiritually discerning to help me with this part. Only ones that are knowledgable in Greek, especially old biblical greek. It shows a "breath" from God resurrecting "them", later then ascending on a cloud. I believe the "beast of the sea" represents "rome/gentiles(10 horns representing the scattered 10 tribes of Israel divorced by God, mingled with the gentiles), and the "beast of the earth"represents Jerusalem/Harlot (2 horns of 2 southern tribes of Judah that speak as a "lamb"). I assume this because 12 tribes are mentioned in revelation and God promising to bring them together as one nation under one King, Christ. This is my own opinion of course and I am doing this as a spiritual "hobby". I want the most accurate translation if that is possible. Thanks.

991 blepo blep'-o a primary verb; to look at (literally or figuratively):--behold, beware, lie, look (on, to), perceive, regard, see, sight, take heed. Compare 3700
991 blepo {blep'-o}
a primary word; TDNT - 5:315,706; v
AV - see 90, take heed 12, behold 10, beware 4, look on 4,
look 3, beware of 3, misc 9; 135
1) to see, discern, of the bodily eye

I am looking up the word use in the whole NT to get as close as I can to the translation.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 11:9 kai <2532> {AND} bleyousin <991> (5692) {SHALL SEE [SOME]} ek <1537> {OF} twn <3588> {THE} lawn <2992> {PEOPLES} kai <2532> {AND} fulwn <5443> {TRIBES} kai <2532> {AND} glwsswn <1100> {TONGUES} kai <2532> {AND} eqnwn <1484> ta <3588> {NATIONS} ptwmata <4430> {BODIES} autwn <846> {THEIR} hmeraV <2250> {DAYS} treiV <5140> {THREE} kai <2532> {AND} hmisu <2255> {A HALF,} kai <2532> {AND} ta <3588> ptwmata <4430> autwn <846> {THEIR BODIES} ouk <3756> {NOT} afhsousin <863> (5692) {THEY WILL SUFFER} teqhnai <5087> (5683) {TO BE PUT} eiV <1519> {INTO} mnhmata <3418> {TOMBS.}

(ASV) Revelation 11:9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

(Darby) Revelation 11:9 And [men] of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations see their body three days and a half, and they do not suffer their bodies to be put into a sepulchre.

(Young) Revelation 11:9 and they shall behold--they of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations--their dead bodies three days and a half, and their dead bodies they shall not suffer to be put into tombs,

11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

11:9 For three and a half days those from every people, tribe, nation, and language will look at their corpses, because they will not permit them to be placed in a tomb.

11:10 And those who live on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate, even sending gifts to each other, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11:11 But27 after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and tremendous fear seized28 those who were watching them. 11:12 Then29 they30 heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them: "Come up here!" So the two prophets31 went up to heaven in a cloud while32 their enemies stared at them. 11:13 Just then33 a major earthquake took place and a tenth of the city collapsed; seven thousand people34 were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

11:14 The second woe has come and gone;35 the third is coming quickly.
(why would this trumpet sound if not for "Christ" ascending into heaven? Just curious.)

The Seventh Trumpet 11:15 Then36 the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,37 and he will reign for ever and ever."

 

[inhimitrust]

Is there anyone here that is extremely knowledgable in biblical greek that can give me the word for word literal translation of this verse? Is it the actual people themselves that don't allow the "bodies" to be buried, or the "bodies" themselves were not "buried", as after Christ was crucified and put in a tomb for 3 and half days, He was not really dead "spiritually". I need someone that is open minded on this and tell me how this is correctly translated. Thanks.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 11:9 kai <2532> {AND} bleyousin <991> (5692) {SHALL SEE [SOME]} ek <1537> {OF} twn <3588> {THE} lawn <2992> {PEOPLES} kai <2532> {AND} fulwn <5443> {TRIBES} kai <2532> {AND} glwsswn <1100> {TONGUES} kai <2532> {AND} eqnwn <1484> ta <3588> {NATIONS} ptwmata <4430> {BODIES} autwn <846> {THEIR} hmeraV <2250> {DAYS} treiV <5140> {THREE} kai <2532> {AND} hmisu <2255> {A HALF,} kai <2532> {AND} ta <3588> ptwmata <4430> autwn <846> {THEIR BODIES} ouk <3756> {NOT} afhsousin <863> (5692) {"THEY"? WILL SUFFER} teqhnai <5087> (5683) {TO BE PUT} eiV <1519> {INTO} mnhmata <3418> {TOMBS.}
11:9 And seen of peoples and tribes and tongues and nations their fallen bodies three and half days, because their bodies were not permitted to be put in a tomb.

(KJV) Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(RSV) Revelation 11:9 For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
(ASV) Revelation 11:9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

(Young) Revelation 11:9 and they shall behold--they of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations--their dead bodies three days and a half, and their dead bodies they shall not suffer to be put into tombs,

 

[christian-only]

Is it the actual people themselves that don't allow the "bodies" to be buried, or the "bodies" themselves were not "buried",

All the translations you cited show that the people of the nations do not allow the bodies of the two prophets to be buried, but I don't really understand what you are asking or where you could possibly be going with this.

 

[@@Paul@@]

The only person who is going to give you the most acurate translation is God Himself.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.​

The implication is as christian-only said: those which "dwell upon the earth" do not let them be buried because they wish to gloat over the dead bodies.

 

[inhimitrust]

Yep. But somehow people seem to be able to interpret it in a way that makes it all "future" when even some verses are hard to interpret. My whole point is unless a person knows what revelation actually represents, it will continue to just lie there in the bible as some great mysterious apocalypse book and no one searching for the real truth of it, while it continues to make millions of dollars off prophecy books that make it look less God inspired and devine than it really is. I am not putting down the prophecy books per se, I just have no interest in them and never have.
Guess I will try to find someone here in Austin, Tx that knows the ancient greek, but because of the devine jewish symbolic nature of it, it still won't make it easy to discern the true meaning of it, even with an expert in Greek. What a shame.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Amen. People don't know the full truth, and yet make millions off of saying they do.

 

[inhimitrust]

The only person who is going to give you the most acurate translation is God Himself.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.​

The implication is as christian-only said: those which "dwell upon the earth" do not let them be buried because they wish to gloat over the dead bodies.

The jews also celebrated with joy at Christ' death. If the verse would have said the "whole world" rejoiced, then I could look at it different, but remember that a beast comes up both out of the "sea" and one out of the "earth". Both world and earth are used in the same paragraph in the OT, where earth usually represented Israel or Jerusalem and "nations" or world represented the whole planet(do word search on world and earth and you will see what I mean)
I am just looking at it in conjunction with the rest of the book as when it shows Christ as a Lamb that looked like it had been slain(chapt 5). Revelation is really not in any kind of chronological order, as I have noticed this quite some time and why it is more time consuming to piece it together, so anyone that likes working on "jigsaw puzzles" would just love this book.

 

[Symes]

Revelation 11


The Two Witnesses

"1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die."

The Bible tells us a lot about them.

It says they are the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

Understanding prophecy correctly indicates that the "two" are indeed the Old and the New Testament.

Let the Bible explain itself.

The Two Witnesses are the Two Lamp Stands or Olive Trees.

Revelation 11: 4 - The Two Lamp stands or Olive Trees Represent God's Word - the Old and New Testaments.

Psalms 119: 105 - The word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path

Zechariah 4: 1-6 - ... a candlestick ... with seven pipes ... and two olive trees ...
he answered ... saying, this is the word of the Lord ...

Zechariah 4: 11-14 - what are these olive trees ... these are the two anointed ones ...

Two Lamps illumined the Scriptures in the Jewish Synagogue.

 

[hraedisc]

Revelation Chapter 11
The Battle Between the Bible and Atheism


Verse 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Evident allusion is here made to Zechariah 4: 11-14, where it is implied that the two olive trees are taken to represent the word of God. David testifies, "The entrance of Thy words giveth light;" and, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Psalm 119: 130, 105. Written testimony is stronger than oral. Jesus declared of the Old Testament Scriptures, "They are they which testify of Me." John 5: 39.

Says George Croly: "The 'Two Witnesses' are the Old and New Testaments. . . . The essential purpose of the Scriptures is to give witness to the mercy and verity of God. Our Lord commands, 'Search the Scriptures, . . . they are they which testify [bear witness] of Me.' This was addressed to the Jews, and described the character and office of the Old Testament. The New Testament is similarly pronounced the giver of testimony. 'This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations.' (Matthew 24: 14.)" [1]

These declarations and considerations are sufficient to sustain the conclusion that the Old and New Testaments are Christ's two witnesses.

Verse 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

To hurt the word of God is to oppose, corrupt, or pervert its testimony, and turn people away from it. Against those who do this work, fire proceedeth out of their mouth to devour them, that is, judgment of fire is pronounced in that word against such. It declares that they will have their punishment in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. (Malachi 4: 1; Revelation 20: 15; 22: 18, 19.)

Page 535

Verse 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

In what sense have these witnesses power to shut heaven, turn waters to blood, and bring plagues on the earth? Elijah shut heaven so that it did not rain for three years and a half, but he did by the word of the Lord. Moses by the word of the Lord turned the waters of Egypt to blood. Just as these judgments, recorded in their testimony, have been fulfilled, so will every threatening and judgment pronounced by them against any people surely be accomplished.

"As often as they will" means that as often as judgments are recorded on their pages to take place, so often they will come to pass. An instance of this the world is yet to experience in the infliction of the seven last plagues.

Click to read more...
http://www.champs-of-truth.com/books/dr/rev_chapter_xi.htm

[1] George Croly, The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 164.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Thanks for the interpretation of the witnesses, that has confused me for a while!

 

[inhimitrust]

Yes <>, I indeed did use zech 4 and 6 to help with the 2 witnesses, but it is the translations of the verses that I am after as they are figurative and symbolic. I just wish I knew greek.
Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration, and that showed that Christ represented both of them I think. Christ represented both Law(moses) and Prophet(Elijah) or Spirit and Word. He said Him and the Father were One, so God and Christ were also 2 witnesses, body and spirit. I don't take the "bodies" as literal bodies so that was an interesting interpretation. Moses was "buried by God", and Elijah was "taken by a whirlwind".The 2 witnesses could in essence be representing Christ, as John was told to write down what he had "seen", and if this is the apostle John, he did indeed "see" Christ crucified and ascending, no?
Christ came to fulfill the Old Law and thru His Father, He had power to shut up both heavens and bring fire down. Moses and Elijah also had these powers(though it was thru God, not them) but Christ was representive of both. Remember John the baptist "baptized" Jesus then was beheaded later. It is similar to the story of Elijah and Elisha at the river in 2kings. Christ seem to turn into a kind of "Elisha", he became greater and Elijah became less and was taken away. Also, after Moses died, Joshua took His place and led the people to conquer their enemies.
I always look for similarities in the bible between the old and the new and it just amazes me how harmonized the bible truly is.

 

[G4m]

Yes <>, I indeed did use zech 4 and 6 to help with the 2 witnesses, but it is the translations of the verses that I am after as they are figurative and symbolic. I just wish I knew greek.
Moses and Elijah were both at the transfiguration, and that showed that Christ represented both of them I think. Christ represented both Law(moses) and Prophet(Elijah) or Spirit and Word. He said Him and the Father were One, so God and Christ were also 2 witnesses, body and spirit. I don't take the "bodies" as literal bodies so that was an interesting interpretation. Moses was "buried by God", and Elijah was "taken by a whirlwind".The 2 witnesses could in essence be representing Christ, as John was told to write down what he had "seen", and if this is the apostle John, he did indeed "see" Christ crucified and ascending, no?
Christ came to fulfill the Old Law and thru His Father, He had power to shut up both heavens and bring fire down. Moses and Elijah also had these powers(though it was thru God, not them) but Christ was representive of both. Remember John the baptist "baptized" Jesus then was beheaded later. It is similar to the story of Elijah and Elisha at the river in 2kings. Christ seem to turn into a kind of "Elisha", he became greater and Elijah became less and was taken away. Also, after Moses died, Joshua took His place and led the people to conquer their enemies.
I always look for similarities in the bible between the old and the new and it just amazes me how harmonized the bible truly is.

inhimitrust,

I know that "Der Alter" seems quite good with Greek, perhaps you could PM him your question.

 

[danceforjoy]

Rev.11 starts and finnishes with GOD's temple or sanctuary in heaven. The opening verse talks about judgment as well as the closing.
Measuring and them that worship therein.
All Christians are told to worship in the most holy place [Hebrews 10:19] in heaven where GOD is by faith.
What good does it do us to know who the two witnesses are if we do not take the whole contents into consideration?
What is the holy city that is trodden under foot for 42 month? Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:15 and refers us to Daniel 8:13,14 where we have the prophecy of the 2300 days of years when the judgment hour [yom kippur] would begin.
It is a deep study and needs lots of help from above to grasp it, but the Holy Spirit of truth who inspired it will help us today.
The 42 month prophetic time needs to be interpreted like the rest of Daniel and Revelation, a day for a year, or else we get nowhere and only end up speculating.
Daniel 9:24-27 makes only sense by the Protestant and Biblical interpretation of the year day principle. 70literal weeks or 490 days would not reach from Daniels days to Christ, but 490 days of years is an exact match.

Revelation 2:10 speaks of the 10 days of tribulation. Historians tell us that the persecution of Emperor Diocletian was the last and most severe that lasted exactly 10 literal years.
So the 42 month of Rev.11:2 and the 3 + 1/2 days in v.11 should also be done that way to get anywhere and stop the futurist speculations.

42 month or 1260 days also mention throughout Daniel and Revelation would bring out the time that the teachings of the two witnesses were supressed by Rome from 538 A.D. to 1798.

in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days/years, Christ began the cleansing of the heavenly temple as our great high Priest, which is the judgment hour also mentioned in Revel.14:6,7

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Interesting. What events in 1798 and 1844 mark this?

 

[danceforjoy]

The prophecy commences with the third verse of the chapter. The first two verses actually belong to the prophecy of chapter 10
Remember that in the original, there were no breaks. Chapters were put in by the Translaters.
many and varied attempt have been made to interpret Rev.11, but the majority has been most unsatisfactory. Scholars admit that this chapter is the most difficult of the whole book, therefore it is essential that we adhere strictly to the basic Bible principle of interpretation and pray hard for help.

"AND I WILL GIVE POWER TO MY TWO WITNESSES AND THEY SHALL PROPHECY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREE SCORE DAYS CLOTHED IN SACKCLOTH' V.3

Who are the two witnesses?
There appear to be three main interpretations.
1. They represent Moses and Elijah.
2. They represent the Christian Church
3. They represent the Word of GOD in the old and the New Testament.

The following reasons are presented as to why the first two applications should be rejected.

1. The two witnesses prophecy in sackcloth for 1260 prophetic days of years. This was the period cited above. There is no evidence that Moses and Elijah appeared during that period. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus Christ on the Mount of transfiguration [Luke 9: 28-36] in their glorified immortal state. How then could they be slain and their bodies lie exposed for three and half prophetic days days or three and half years? In their glorified immortal state they would not be subject to death.

2. It is true that in Revelation the seven candlesticks represent the Church of GOD [Rev.1:20], but this is when they are presented in their settings of the heavenly temple or sanctuary. however, in Rev.11 the two candlesticks are not presented in the setting of the heavenly temple but in the earthly conflict of good and evil.

how could the Church be killed [v.7] when JESUS declared that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". [Matthew 16:18].

How could it be tuthfully said "that fire proceeds out of their mouth and devoureth" the enemies of the church, "and to smite them with plagues" when JESUS instructed his church "to love your enemies, bless them that curse you and do good to them that despitefully use you....[Matth.5:44].

When did the Christians "torment people on the earth"? v.10

I therefore conclude that the two witnesses represent the Word of God in the form of the two Testaments, for the following reasons:
1. Scripture clearly symbolizes the Word of GOD as candlestick or lamp.
2. Scripture speaks of both the Old Testament and the New Testament as "a witness". [Luke 24:27,44].

 

[danceforjoy]

Interesting. What events in 1798 and 1844 mark this?

In 1798 A.D. The French Army of Napoleon entered Rome and took the Bischop of the Throne of the Ceasars which ended the 1260 long years of supremacy.
In 1844, at the end of the longest biblical time prophecy, JESUS fulfilled the shadowy or foreshadows of the Old Testament priesthood sanctuary services.
Just like the High Priest moved from the office of the holy into the most holy, so did JESUS to begin cleansing it.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Very interesting. I will look into this.

 

[hraedisc]

bizzlebinm, see

Pending - Your Case in Court
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=641

Blood Behind the Veil
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=640&x=29&y=20

 

[hraedisc]

Prophetic Calendars

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 48 God and the Calendars [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 49 The 70 Weeks [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 50 The 2300 Days [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 51 The 1260 Days [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 52 The 1290 Days [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 53 The 1335 Days [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 54 The Signs of the Times [/font]

[font=arial, arial, helvetica]Lesson 55 God's Prophetic Calendar [/font]​

 

[danceforjoy]

2 Witnesses in Revelation 11
Elsewhere in this chapter, it declares that the two witnesses are also “two prophets”.
v.10 The two Testament are personified, or represented as living persons in order to highlight the power and influence of the Bible:

‘THESE HAVE POWER TO SHUT HEAVEN THAT IT RAIN NOT IN THE DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY.” V.6

We call the outpouring of GOD’s spirit latter and early rain. [Joel 2;Acts2 etc.]. Whenever the holy Word of GOD is suppressed, the proclamation cannot take place and GOD withholds his blessings.

‘ AND SMITE THE EARTH WITH ALL PLAGUES AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL’.
v.6

In the Bible there are two opposing forces or cities: BABYLON and JERUSALEM. And I know at least of one plague. Bavaria was hit by the black plague. The Word of God was outlawed there, but they promised GOD to enact the passion play every 10 years and GOD accepted. Because this was the only thing they were allowed to do by the reigning state church.

‘THE TWO WITNESSES ‘SHALL PROPHECY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREE-SCORE DAYS, CLOTHED IN SACKCLOTH’. V.3

“Prophecy” here means to preach or proclaim, but “in sackcloth”. Sackcloth in Bible times was used in connection with affliction, mourning, desolation. Applied to the Bible it signifies that it would be under suspicion, stigmatized, made illegal. The Bible would prophecy in obscurity and secrecy.
In some countries GOD used child preachers where the Bible was forbidden and most adults suffered torture or burning at the stake

The 1260 days are also mentioned as 42 month, time, time and a half in different places of the Bible if anyone cares to study them together [dan.7:25;12:7-9; Rev.12:6,14; 13:5]

It seems quiet clear that the two witnesses represent the word of GOD.

“SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES…FOR THEY TESTIFY [OR BEAR WITNESS] OF ME. –John 5:39

“THIS GOSPEL SHALL BE PREACHED AS A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS AND THEN SHALL THE END COME”.-Matth.24:14

The Mother of Babylon [Rev.17] claimed that she was the only one that could interpret scripture and kept it locked up in a dead language of latin.

Rev.12:6 says: “AND THE WOMAN FLED INTO THE WILDERNESS….1260 DAYS”.
See also v.14
“The decree of Toulouse 1229 A.D. [France] which established the ‘tribunal of the inquisition’ against all the readers of the Bible in the vulgar [common] tongue…was an edict of fire, bloodshed and devastation….it ordained the entire destruction of the houses, the humblest places of concealment and even the subterranean retreats of men convicted of possessing the scriptures; that they should be pursued to the forests and caves of the earth; and that even those who harboured them should be severely punished. As a result, the Bible was everywhere prohibited; it vanished, as it were, underground; it descended into the tomb. These decrees were followed for five hundred years by innumerable punishments, in which the blood of the saints flowed like water.”-L.Gaussen.”The Canon of the Holy Scriptures”, Part 2,Bk.2,ch.