2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Your posts really are difficult to decipher, because of:

• the lack of sentences connecting your various quotes,
• the use of pseudo-Greek like anastasiV h prwth,
• the formatting,
• the lengthy side discussions on "other places this word is used," and
• your very long signature (which is in the same font as your posts, making it very hard to tell where your posts stop and your signature begins)

Sadly, I have no idea at all what you were trying to say. Could you rephrase, please?

I just woke up and had my coffee and saw your post here.

"your very long signature (which is in the same font as your posts, making it very hard to tell where your posts stop and your signature begins)"

I have always had "show sigs" turned off, so I can't see my own sig.
I went and looked at, and decided to just eliminate it for now.

1- the lack of sentences connecting your various quotes,
2the formatting,
3 - the use of pseudo-Greek like anastasiV h prwth,the formatting,
4 - the lack of sentences connecting your various quotes,

A few others brought some of that up and the fact that you did also made me take a look at it.

I noticed when CF did a complete makeover [I think it was 2015?] I went back to an old thread I had and noticed a lot of the posts were garbled:[I am in the process of going back over it and "refining" it and will use what you have said to help make it more readable to others]
Book of Galatian verse by verse
Oct 22, 2009

#1053 used 4 times in 4 verses. 3 times in Pauls Epistles, 1 time in Epistle of 1 Peter {1:1}.
The english word is taken from the transliterated greek word. I do use this interlinear to help with the translation of this Epistle and both the NT/NC and OT/OC

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

1:2 And those together to me, all bretheren to the of the outcalleds of the Galatia/galatiaV <1053>

Textus Rec.) Galatians 1:2 kai oi sun emoi panteV adelfoi taiV ekklhsiaiV thV galatiaV

Strong's Number G1053 matches the Greek &#915;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#964;&#8055;&#945; (Galatia), which occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1053. Galatia gal-at-ee'-ah of foreign origin; Galatia, a region of Asia:--Galatia.

I don't know if the changeover affected the way my fonts come out or some other factors are in play. I can only see the way it looks on my screen and not on others.

I am going to look back on some of my posts and see if I can better present them in a way that is easier to read.
Thank you for bringing this up dear friend and I do enjoy your posts and presence on CF.
You and I go way back on this Forum and I also respect you........
.

 

[Radagast]

In this day and age, with the resources we have available to us, you don't have to be an expert to understand Greek enough to understand the scriptures.

A tiny bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It leads people to get the wrong answer and be confident about it.

 

[Radagast]

I have always had "show sigs" turned off so I can't see my own sig.

You know, that explains a lot.

I went back to an old thread I had and noticed a lot of the posts were garbled:
Book of Galatian verse by verse

I don't know if the changeover affected the way my fonts come out or some other factors are in play.

Probably multiple factors. You might have a special Greek font installed on your computer that displays right for you but not for other people, for example.

I am going to look back on some of my posts and see if I can better present them in a way that is easier to read.

That sounds like a lot of work. Maybe you could just clarify what you meant on this thread?

Thank you for bringing this up dear friend and I do enjoy your posts and presence on CF.
You and I go way back on this Forum and I also respect you........

I'm blushing now.

 

[Radagast]

Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?

Back to the OP....

2 Timothy 2:17b-18a: ὧν ἐστιν Ὑμέναιος καὶ Φίλητος (among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus), οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν (who, concerning the truth) ἠστόχησαν (have deviated), λέγοντες ἀνάστασιν ἤδη γεγονέναι (saying that the Resurrection has already taken place).

Most likely, they were saying that the Resurrection had already happened, but in a spiritual sense (that is, they were denying a bodily resurrection).

The commentaries on 2 Timothy by John Calvin, Matthew Henry, William Hendriksen, John MacArthur, and Fr Raymond Collins all take a similar view.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers

Radagast said: ↑
Your posts really are difficult to decipher, because of:

Thank you, I'm not the only one who finds them scrambled. I found that you can omit seeing people's signatures in your settings which is what I did to help clean it up.

Besides that the Greek text doesn't need to be displayed. It's OK to display the words in English, and their meaning, but she doesn't even do that! It's useless to display the Greek text like this -οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἠστόχησαν - because most if not all of us don't understand it anyway!

Judging by the vast number of people on CF who claim to be Greek experts, you surprise me. But apart from οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἠστόχησαν, hoitines peri tēn alētheian ēstochēsan would be the next best, imho.

The weird code (e.g. anastasiV h prwth) where V is an "s," h is an "ē," and w is an "ō" seems to me even less comprehensible than the Greek.

Hello Rad.
Interesting post as always.
I found the transliterated Greek helpful, especially when harmonizing the major Greek texts.

The Koine Greek is useful when looking up where exact form of the words are used elsewhere, at least IMHO. [I have no idea how to read it tho]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

apokalypsis
ä-po-kä'-lü-psēs (Key)
Part of Speech feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀποκαλύπτω (G601)

Greek Inflections of ἀποκάλυψις
mGNT — 19x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 18x in 7 unique form(s)
ἀποκαλύψει — 6x
ἀποκαλύψεις — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεων — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεως — 3x
ἀποκάλυψιν — 7x
ἀποκάλυψις — 1x

I noticed when doing my own translation of Revelation, there are a plethora of variances within a lot of the major Greeks, but most do agree with each other.....

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
Apr 20, 2008

Commented on:
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
apokaluyiV<602>
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
in swiftness/en tacei
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
signifies-it,/eshmanen<4591>
...........................................CHAPTER 1

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

Revelation 1:1

An unveiling/revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

All the Greek texts agree.....No variances

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh
Byzantine Majority
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

Alexandrian
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

Hort and Westcott
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

The site shown below is helpful for those who are interested in the transliterated Greek instead of the Koine Greek. It also has a lot of different Bible versions with it.
The Bible versions below use different Greek texts.
[I favor YLT as far as accuracy and staying faithful to the Greek text [I believe it uses the H-W?]]

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Revelation 1 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com

King James Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
New American Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;
and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Young's Literal Translation
A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly;
and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,


.

 

[DamianWarS]

Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.

become/γεγονέναι<1096>
Speech: Verb Parsing: Perfect Infinitive Active

18
οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἠστόχησαν, λέγοντες ἀνάστασιν ἤδη γεγονέναι,
καὶ ἀνατρέπουσιν τήν τινων πίστιν.
18
oitineV peri thn alhqeian hstochsan legonteV thn anastasin hdh gegonenai
kai anatrepousin thn tinwn pistin

Revelation 20 shows the Resurrection.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead no they live until should be being finished<5055> the thousand years.
This the resurrection/ἀνάστασις <386>, the first.

20:5
οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔζησαν ἄχρι τελεσθῇ1 τὰ χίλια2 ἔτη.
αὕτη ἡ ἀνάστασις ἡ πρώτη.

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oi de loipoi twn nekrwn ouk anezhsan ews telesqh ta cilia eth auth h anastasiV h prwth
Byzantine Majority
kai oi loipoi twn nekrwn ouk ezhsan acri telesqh ta cilia eth auth h anastasiV h prwth.


.

I think Paul is the common denominator here. He first brought the resurrection up in his first letter to the Corinthians and this example in 2 Timothy is him continuing to champion it.

 

[parousia70]

Back to the OP....

Most likely, they were saying that the Resurrection had already happened, but in a spiritual sense (that is, they were denying a bodily resurrection).

How us that "Most Likely"?

Why would it matter if Hymenaeus believed that the resurrection had already occured?
Why would this destroy the faith of some?
What precisely is the error of Hymenaeus that Paul is rebuking?

1)Is it timing that Paul has problems with? If yes, why?

2)Is it the nature of the event Paul has problems with? If yes, how do you know this from the passage?

You apparently have chosen #2, the Nature. (They were denying a "Bodily" resurrection)

However, The passage explicitly says it's not about the nature, but it's about timing. (if it had been about the nature of the event, Paul could have simply pointed to unopened graves to debunk Hymenaeus. He does not do this--for he wasn't debating the nature of their claim but rather the timing.)

What damning, faith-destroying error did Paul continuously have to address in his epistles? The answer links right up to the error of Hymenaeus:

Galatians 3:1-2,10
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse

Galatians 2:16,21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified....I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly

Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I could post a dozen other Pauline verses that repeat what was damming everyone in that generation, but those suffice. The belief that justification/salvation came from the Law Covenant of Moses was the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously had to address in his epistles.

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era. Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was, in essence, saying "Christ died needlessly."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Back to the OP....
Most likely, they were saying that the Resurrection had already happened, but in a spiritual sense (that is, they were denying a bodily resurrection).
The commentaries on 2 Timothy by John Calvin, Matthew Henry, William Hendriksen, John MacArthur, and Fr Raymond Collins all take a similar view.

And a "bodily return"?

This passage has also had me stumped.

In Acts 1 it shows Jesus being taken up and a cloud hid Him.
The Disciples are told by 2 Messengers that He would return in a like manner:

YLT
Acts 1:
9And these things having said — they beholding — he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;
11who also said, ‘Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven?
this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.’

Revelation 12 appears to be showing that event?

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.
and caught away was her Child unto God and His throne,

While harmonizing the 70ad Olivet Discourse, I noticed Luke using the "singular" cloud and didn't think too much of it at first, but when I keyed in the phrase "son of man cloud" into a concordance, only 2 verses showed up in the entire NT..... Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in<1722> a cloud, with power and much glory

Revelation is not in order as most here know.

This shows the great Harvest along with the "rapture" of the 2 witnesses:

Revelation 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[fn] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe

Just as Jesus was taken up in a cloud in Acts, so are the 2 witnesses:

Rev 11:12
And they hear a great Voice from out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into the heaven in a cloud,
and their enemies saw them.

Which begs the question, what exactly is the meaning of "parousia", as it is only used in 4 verses of the Gospels, all in Matthew 24

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man/anqrwpou <444> ;
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

1 Corinthians 15:23
and each in their proper order,
a first-fruit Christ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end,

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 - And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the parousiaV <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
,

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:30
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of the Man in the heaven;
and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast,
and they shall see the Son of the Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
Mark 13:26
“Then they will see the Son of the Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory;



.

 

[mkgal1]

Right - according to the passage, this was an argument about timing (most of all) - but ISTM that we also need to understand what was meant by "resurrection". If it were a corporeal release of the dead from the graves - would there really be that much confusion?

 

[mkgal1]

I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is also a parallel passage (relevant to "the coming of our Lord"/Parousia). That's what was anticipated - hoped for. Parousia = His presence:

2 Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already arrived. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Back to the OP....

2 Timothy 2:17b-18a: ὧν ἐστιν Ὑμέναιος καὶ Φίλητος (among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus), οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν (who, concerning the truth) ἠστόχησαν (have deviated), λέγοντες ἀνάστασιν ἤδη γεγονέναι (saying that the Resurrection has already taken place).

Most likely, they were saying that the Resurrection had already happened, but in a spiritual sense (that is, they were denying a bodily resurrection).

The commentaries on 2 Timothy by John Calvin, Matthew Henry, William Hendriksen, John MacArthur, and Fr Raymond Collins all take a similar view.

How us that "Most Likely"?

Why would it matter if Hymenaeus believed that the resurrection had already occured?
Why would this destroy the faith of some?
What precisely is the error of Hymenaeus that Paul is rebuking?

1)Is it timing that Paul has problems with? If yes, why?

2)Is it the nature of the event Paul has problems with? If yes, how do you know this from the passage?

You apparently have chosen #2, the Nature. (They were denying a "Bodily" resurrection)

However, The passage explicitly says it's not about the nature, but it's about timing. (if it had been about the nature of the event, Paul could have simply pointed to unopened graves to debunk Hymenaeus. He does not do this--for he wasn't debating the nature of their claim but rather the timing.)

What damning, faith-destroying error did Paul continuously have to address in his epistles? The answer links right up to the error of Hymenaeus:

Galatians 3:1-2,10
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse

Galatians 2:16,21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified....I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly

Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I could post a dozen other Pauline verses that repeat what was damming everyone in that generation, but those suffice. The belief that justification/salvation came from the Law Covenant of Moses was the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously had to address in his epistles.

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era. Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was, in essence, saying "Christ died needlessly."

Right - according to the passage, this was an argument about timing (most of all) - but ISTM that we also need to understand what was meant by "resurrection". If it were a corporeal release of the dead from the graves - would there really be that much confusion?

I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is also a parallel passage (relevant to "the coming of our Lord"/Parousia). That's what was anticipated - hoped for. Parousia = His presence:

2 Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already arrived. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say.​

Thank you "parousia70 and "mkgal1". Very insightful edifying posts.........

And a "bodily return"

While harmonizing the 70ad Olivet Discourse, I noticed Luke using the "singular" cloud and didn't think too much of it at first, but when I keyed in the phrase "son of man cloud" into a concordance, only 2 verses showed up in the entire NT..... Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14.

Which begs the question, what exactly is the meaning of "parousia", as it is only used in 4 verses of the Gospels, all in Matthew 24

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament

Matthew 24:30
and they shall see the Son of the Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory;
.

I keyed in "parousia son of man cloud" and this site came up.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution

The following may seem unbelievable. However, all information below is taken from unbiased historical records and is easily verifiable. Sources are also listed at the bottom of the page.

Preterism and the Parousia–“You will see the Son of Man . . . coming on the Clouds of Heaven”: In Mark 14:61-62 and John 21:22-23, Jesus declares that the High Priest Caiaphas and the Apostle John will live to see the Second Coming.
========================================

I am beginning to be of the view the "parousia" may have to do with Titus and the Roman army's 70ad destruction of the Temple,
much like the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in the OT.

When I was studying on clouds in the NT, these verses struck out at me.
Clouds can also symbolize people?

[Peter was an Apostle to the Jews and Hebrew Israelite diasporia from the previous destruction by the Babylonians in the OT......]

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

=================================
2Pe 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.[fn]
Jde 1:12
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[fn] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;

Heb 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us,
and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
====================================
I keyed in "clouds can symbolize people in bible" in google search and came up with this interesting site:

https://renner.org/a-great-cloud-of-witnesses/

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses.…
—Hebrews 12:1

Do you see the word “cloud” in the verse above? It is taken from the Greek word nephos. It describes clouds — just like the clouds you see in the sky.

When most people read this verse, they imagine big, fluffy white clouds with Old Testament saints scattered mystically throughout the glorious white billows.
But is this really the picture that Hebrews 12:1 means to convey to us?
======================================================

https://www.google.com/search?clien...1j0i10j0i22i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.cLZeQwsNYPg


.

 

[Radagast]

Back to the OP....

2 Timothy 2:17b-18a: ὧν ἐστιν Ὑμέναιος καὶ Φίλητος (among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus), οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν (who, concerning the truth) ἠστόχησαν (have deviated), λέγοντες ἀνάστασιν ἤδη γεγονέναι (saying that the Resurrection has already taken place).

I've just discovered transliterate.com. How's this?

2 Timothy 2:17b-18a: hōn estin Hymenaios kai Philētos (among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus), hoitines peri tēn alētheian (who, concerning the truth) ēstochēsan (have deviated), legontes anastasin ēdē gegonenai (saying that the Resurrection has already taken place).

 

[Radagast]

The Koine Greek is useful when looking up where exact form of the words are used elsewhere, at least IMHO. [I have no idea how to read it tho]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

apokalypsis
ä-po-kä'-lü-psēs (Key)
Part of Speech feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀποκαλύπτω (G601)

Greek Inflections of ἀποκάλυψις
mGNT — 19x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 18x in 7 unique form(s)
ἀποκαλύψει — 6x
ἀποκαλύψεις — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεων — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεως — 3x
ἀποκάλυψιν — 7x
ἀποκάλυψις — 1x

This is what tells you the tense of verbs, and the number, gender, and case of nouns.

[I favor YLT as far as accuracy and staying faithful to the Greek text [I believe it uses the H-W?]]

I would think MOUNCE would be much more reliable. I see that MOUNCE has transliterated Greek too (of the root words only, though): Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:17-18 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

and kai ho their autos talk logos will spread nomē like hōs gangrene gangraina, among whom hos are eimi Hymenaeus Hymenaios and kai Philetus Philētos, who hostis have swerved astocheō from peri the ho truth alētheia, saying legō the ho resurrection anastasis has already ēdē occurred ginomai, and kai they are upsetting anatrepō the ho faith pistis of some tis.

 

[Radagast]

How us that "Most Likely"?

It's "most likely" first because most commentators are on my side, such as John Calvin, Matthew Henry, William Hendriksen, John MacArthur, and (for the Catholics) Fr Raymond Collins.

And second because it's the only interpretation that really makes sense.

Obviously you and I have not been physically resurrected yet. But Hymenaeus and Philetus seem to have be saying that we have been resurrected already in a spiritual sense (we are "alive in Christ") and that's the only resurrection there's going to be.

What damning, faith-destroying error did Paul continuously have to address in his epistles?

Paul was addressing many different kinds of errors in his epistles. That argument doesn't fly.

 

[Radagast]

I am beginning to be of the view the "parousia" may have to do with Titus and the Roman army's 70ad destruction of the Temple

Might that be a topic for a different thread?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Deleted by LLoJ.............

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The Koine Greek is useful when looking up where exact form of the words are used elsewhere, at least IMHO. [I have no idea how to read it tho]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

apokalypsis
ä-po-kä'-lü-psēs (Key)
Part of Speech feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀποκαλύπτω (G601)

Greek Inflections of ἀποκάλυψις
mGNT — 19x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 18x in 7 unique form(s)
ἀποκαλύψει — 6x
ἀποκαλύψεις — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεων — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεως — 3x
ἀποκάλυψιν — 7x
ἀποκάλυψις — 1x

This is what tells you the tense of verbs, and the number, gender, and case of nouns.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
[I favor YLT as far as accuracy and staying faithful to the Greek text [I believe it uses the H-W?]]

Radagast said: ↑
I would think MOUNCE would be much more reliable. I see that MOUNCE has transliterated Greek too (of the root words only, though):

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:17-18 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

and kai ho their autos talk logos will spread nomē like hōs gangrene gangraina, among whom hos are eimi Hymenaeus Hymenaios and kai Philetus Philētos, who hostis have swerved astocheō from peri the ho truth alētheia, saying legō the ho resurrection anastasis has already ēdē occurred ginomai, and kai they are upsetting anatrepō the ho faith pistis of some tis.

Thank you Rad.....I am always on the look out for NT Greek resources, especially when I go back to "tweek" my Revelation thread. [and hopefully one day, harmonize it]

The word "revelation" is compiled of 2 greek words
the prefix #575 and the root word #2572

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

602. apokalupsis from 601;
disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
575. apo apo' a primary particle;
"off," i.e. away (from something near),
2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.
Reve 1:1
An unveiling/revealing/apo-kalupsis<602> of Jesus Christ............

Paul uses a form of #2572 concerning the veil of Moses and un-veiling Jesus Christ

2571. kaluma kal'-oo-mah from 2572;
a cover, i.e. veil:--vail.

2 Corinthians 3:
14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn — which in Christ is being made useless —
15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away.
17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty; 18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This parable [like Revelation] is also covenantle.

This shows Lazarus dying but not being buried.
I suppose this could be a type of "ressurection"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
30 "And he said, 'Nay! father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Yeshua uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.

But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects the Bible's teaching about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection. This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews who, despite God's resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, have failed to recognize Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah.

======================================================

 

[Radagast]

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament
May 17, 2007
Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by godlovesmebest, May 17, 2007.

Contrary to what that thread says, the word παρουσία (parousia) has no relationship to the word οὐσία (ousia) meaning substance, and the conclusions drawn are wildly incorrect.

Instead, the word παρουσία (parousia) is derived from the verb πάρειμι (pareimi), meaning "to have arrived, to be present." The ending "ousia" indicates the feminine singular present participle of the verb (that is, what in English is the "-ing" form). The word παρουσία (parousia) is generally translated "coming," although "arrival" might be OK too.

See G3952

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I assume that your linking to a porn site was accidental.

What?!
I am going to remove the post #37.........

Are you talking about the thread link or something else?