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2 Timothy 2:17-18 ..."some saying resurrection is past".....Hymenaeus and Philetus"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LittleLambofJesus, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Discuss..........

    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    2 Timothy 2:
    17 and their word as a gangrene will have pasture/spread, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus,
    18 who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
    and they are subverting<396> someof the faith.

    Hymenaeus is mentioned in 1 other verse along with Alexander:

    1Ti 1:20
    of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Alexander is mentioned in 6 times in 5 verses:

    2Ti 4:14
    Alexander
    the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works.
    ======================================================
    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

    18. who concerning the truth have erred]
    More exactly, men who concerning the truth erred by maintaining. For the compound relative indicating the class see on Titus 1:11; for the verb 1 Timothy 1:6; 1 Timothy 6:21. The present participle, with the aorist verb, may indicate the repetitions of their ‘saying’ and so their ‘maintaining,’ and leads the way to the following verb being present.

    that the resurrection] The ms. authority for the omission of the article is hardly strong enough to be followed, though R.V. notes the variant in the margin by the rendering ‘a resurrection.’ Curiously, in Acts 17:32, where there is no article, R.V. still renders ‘when they heard of the resurrection,’ there evidently intending the rule to apply that ‘the article is omitted before many abstract nouns.’ Why not here also?
    So that the retention or omission of the article will make no difference in translation. Winer has no notice of either passage in his full chapter on this, Pt iii. § xix.

    is past already] Some identified the resurrection with the soul’s spiritual renewal by the doctrine of the Gospel causing it ‘to burst forth from the sepulchre of the old man’; others with the departure of the soul from the body, the world in their view being only the habitation of the dead. See Fairbairn. Irenæus and Tertullian both allude to the former error, which may well have been the view here referred to.

    and overthrow] Better are subverting; for the word see note on Titus 1:11.
    =======
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    Who concerning the truth have erred,.... That is, the two persons just mentioned; they fell from the truth, wandered and departed from it; they did not keep to the Scriptures of truth, but deviated from them; they missed that mark, and went astray into gross errors and mistakes; rejected the Gospel, the word of truth, in general, and particularly in
    saying, that the resurrection is past already; and no other is to be expected; or that there was no future resurrection of the dead: their error was, as some think, that there is no other resurrection than that of parents in their children, who, though they die, live in their posterity; or than the resurrection of Christ, and of the saints, that rose at the same time; or rather, that there is no other resurrection than the spiritual one, or regeneration, which is a quickening of dead sinners, or the resurrection of them from the death of sin, to a life of grace; which seems to be the truest account of their principle, seeing this is what has been received and propagated by others since; though some have thought that they gave into the Palingenesia of the Pythagoreans, who supposed that when men die, their souls go into other bodies; and that these men imagined, that this is all the resurrection that will be: and others have been of opinion, that their notion was, that whereas the deliverance of the Jews out of the Babylonish captivity is signified by a resurrection of them, in Ezekiel 37:1 that this is the resurrection they meant was past, and no other to be looked for; but that which has been fixed upon seems to be the truest account:

    and overthrow the faith of some; the Ethiopic version reads, "of many"; that is, of nominal professors of religion; not of true believers, for true faith cannot be overthrown. Hence it follows,
     
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  2. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

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    Greetings LittleLambofJesus,
    You have yet to state clearly how you understand the error of Hymenaeus and Philetus. You quote from Gill’s Exposition, and he introduces this by saying:
    This is simple enough, but I will not discuss the rest of what he suggests as I disagree.

    My suggestion is that Hymenaeus and Philetus had adopted some form of immortal soul teaching, claiming that when a person dies that his immortal soul goes to heaven or hell, and that there was thus no need for the resurrection of the body. Most modern Christians accept the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus, but have also found it difficult to reject clear Bible teaching of the resurrection of the body, though they cannot really reconcile the two concepts.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    2 Timothy 2:
    17 and their word as a gangrene will have pasture/spread, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus,
    18 who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
    and they are subverting<396> someof the faith.
    =====================================
    Another interesting commentary from a Preterist view:

    The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

    What About Hymenaeus and Philetus | Study Archive
    What About Hymenaeus and Philetus

    By Ward Fenley

    "Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." 2 Tim 2:17,18

    Can someone give me a thoroughly reformed, scriptural meaning of what Hymenaeus and Philetus said about the resurrection? Wouldn't the Ephesians know of a spiritual resurrection? Doesn't it imply a physical resurrection? I am a partial preterist, but many new things that I have learned are drawing me towards the full preterist. This is about the only road block I can think of to believing the full preterist view. It would answer my questions about the resurrection. Also, any thoughts on what the millenium in the full preterist view was? I believe it is now, but I would like fully reformed, scriptural thoughts on this.
    =================================
    Answer:

    Believe me, I shared your sentiments. My main concern was not losing friends or popularity. My main concern was not even that the "orthodox" church has not believed in full preterism. My main concern was 2 Tim 2:17,18. Because if I am a full preterist and the resurrection has not happened, then I am a heretic and should be delivered unto Satan and excommunicated from Christian fellowship. That is really hard to take especially considering the fact that the doctrines of grace have already brought enough alienation. So please know that I struggled (and sometimes still do) with that.

    However, as those who deny the church of Rome and her impositions upon her adherents concerning the interpretation of Scripture, we as believers in sola Scriptura must test the "church" and use the conscience God has given us. Of course I know guys like Jim Jones and David Koresh claimed to do that too. But does that mean we flock to Rome? Of course I know you do not believe that, since you are a believer in the reformed doctrines of grace.

    So then, the question is, here we are-two believers in sovereign grace desiring earnestly to search the Scriptures, and our conscience tells us that the apostles and Christ were not mistaken. Our conscience sees the earnest expectation of Paul. Our conscience sees that Paul promised the church of Corinth under divine inspiration, "We shall not all sleep."

    Our conscience tells us to question: How would the church of Corinth have taken that statement? Or the church of Thessalonica for that matter. How did the seven churches in Asia interpret shortly, quickly, at hand, etc.?

    At this point my conscience also says, So why were Hymenaeus and Philetus excommunicated? Before I ask that, I have to ask myself the question: Had the resurrection happened yet? No, of course not. Second, I had to ask, why did not Paul correct the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1-3 by saying "Look you guys, if the coming of Christ took place and the resurrection happened (according to the orthodox views of the 20th century), there would be bodies flying out of the graves etc. I know you have thought about this. But how could Hymenaeus and Philetus be so stupid to say the resurrection had passed if everyone's conception of resurrection was bodies flying out of graves? Seriously. Then I had to ask the question, what was the real reason they were "overthrowing the faith of some"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that the resurrection was inseparable from the destruction of the Jewish Temple.

    Christ clearly said that that generation would not pass away until every stone was thrown down and all prophecy was fulfilled:

    Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. {21} Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. {22} For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which is about to be revealed in us.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
    waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    So what Hymenaeus and Phil were doing was negating the words of Christ and nullifying other VERY important prophecies that had to take place before that day would come (2 Thess 2:1-12). Also interesting is the fact that in 2 Thess 2, the KJV at hand is wrong. It is not the word AT HAND but literally means "has come." There were rumors that Christ had come.
    So now we have in two places (if their interpretation of the coming and resurrection was twentieth century orthodoxy) that crazy lunatics were trying to say the resurrection and coming had taken place. Well, quite honestly, I think these guys were smart enough to realize that no one would buy that tale unless they were seeing the physical body of Christ and graves popping open.
    But Russ, I believe they were taught an entirely different view of the kingdom/resurrection:

    Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Christ knew exactly what the Pharisees were asking. They were asking exactly the same thing the apostles asked in Acts 1:

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
    Israel?

    Everyone was asking the same question that people are still asking today: When is the kingdom going to come?

    Well, check out this comparison:

    John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek mone=dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    compare with:

    John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and NOT unto the world?
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (Greek-mone=mansion or dwelling place) with him.

    First, Judas knew that Christ said the kingdom would not be obvious but that His people would know it. So naturally he asks Jesus: How will you do this? Christ response is crucial. He was telling Judas that those in whom He would come to dwell were the mansions in the Father's house. Through the Spirit, the deposit of their Inheritance (Christ) the first century church was being built up this spiritual house:

    1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are being built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable
    to God by Jesus Christ.

    This building up of the house was the "preparing a place for them" of John 14:2-3. The place was the house or Temple of God that was being built. That house consisted of many dwelling places. At the parousia, Christ came to indwell that house. They then became one with their Husband and dwelt in Him and He in them:

    John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    I always used to be confused about this verse:

    Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    I thought that the NC church was the Temple:

    2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    But then Revelation says:

    Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Well Christ's words unify it. His bride is in Him (in Christ) and He is IN His bride. We now KNOW Him as they were, and we are, fully known.

    I hope this helps. Check out these articles and let me know what you think:

    In heaven,
    Ward Fenley
    ============================================
    Your Comments:
    I have often wondered what Matthew 10:23 (you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes) and Matthew 16:28 (Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom) means in relation to the last days

    Comments
    Duped Christian Zionists claim that God's special relationship with OT, natural Israel did not end forever after the appearance of Christ, the true, spiritual and eternal Israel. Futuristic Zionists believe that relationship will be resumed during an imminent Jewish millennium. Preteristic Zionists believe that relationship continued during a 40-year Jewish millennium (AD 30-70). Both beliefs are false and demeaning.

    Comments
    Yes! I have heard objections about this being, in part, an argument from silence, but what a silence it is! Ask any musician, by the way, about the significance of silences.

    Comments
    Would someone please show me where Paul calls H & P heretics? While it might be inferred from scripture that they were causing divisions in the church, this charge is not made regarding them. To be sure, they were teaching error and it is rather obvious that their motive was to undermine the teaching of the apostles. That does not describe any preterist I know and I find it unacceptable for those who disagree to foment strife and divisions because they understand scripture differently. Any of us can be wrong in our understanding of scripture (in fact, we all are)but that does not make us guilty of a party spirit (heresy).

    Comments
    I AM A FULL PRETERIST, reading some of the comments below really distresses me but it is a classic case of the blind leading the blind. I thank the Lord for the delete button on my computer, too bad it is only one level of deletion and cant remove the full cancerous tumor of unbelief. Get back in your bibles people, stop listening to movies and TV, learn for yourselves. The study was clear and concise, it made me look at a few more passages of scripture that I hadnt seen before. Always eager to learn. William

    Comments
    William: Don't get so upset. Instead, try to understand that the natural man called Israel and his natural offspring were merely TYPES of Christ and his spiritual offspring (the church). When the latter, the true, spiritual and eternal Israel, appeared in the spring of AD 30, the former, the merely typifying, natural and temporary Israel, PASSED AWAY FOREVER in the sight of God. You're making the same mistake the dispensationalists make.

    Comments
    Jesus said: You must be born again before you can see the kingdom of heaven...

    Comments:
    I clicked on Hymenaeus and Philetus because I will be preaching on the effects of this kind of influence that effects the Church today and God's people. This a contrast to where Paul told Timothy to be strong in God's favor (grace) that others will be able to recognize how so many can be turned from the faith. Only the faithful will be able to teach others about this kind of faith distraction. Mark Ferguson [email protected]

    Your Comments:
    I have often wondered what Matthew 10:23 (you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes) and Matthew 16:28 (Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom) means in relation to the last days?

    Your Comments:

    I appreciate this article ward, i watch your videos on youtube keep up the good work.
    peace and God Bless

    Your Comments:
    Dave Curtis has addressed these verses in his taped messages. Basically he said that Hymenaeus and Phil were saying that the resurrection had occurred and this while the temple was still standing and in use also the old covenant was still being observed. The Christians knew the resurrection was to occur at the last day or the beginning of the new heaven and earth so the rumor of the resurrection occurring was devastating to the faith of some. They knew it wasn't a physical event because people weren't popping up out of the ground and so they understood the spiritual implications of the resurrection, for it being spiritual and therefore not a visible event. So with being told that the resurrection had passed, they could see that the temple still stood and taken together, it would have meant that the new heavens and earth was being mixed with the age of the old covenant or if you will, a mixing of law and grace. I can only imagine how they felt, here their persecutors were still around to harass them and worse in the new heavens and earth! It would have been disheartening to say the least. You can google bbc.com and find his tapes. In Christ, Jim

    Comments

    Another demonstration of preterists' problems with typology. There were two natural events in the history of OT, natural Israel that were TYPES of the two first-century resurrections of 1 Cor. 15:23. First, the safe emergence of natural Israel from the Red Sea typified the safe emergence of Christ from the tomb in AD 30. Second, the return from Babylon of ONLY the faithful remnant of natural Israel to the natural promised land typified the resurrection of ONLY the dead in Christ at his parousia on the last day of the true first century. "The rest of the dead" -- those NOT in Christ (Rev. 20:5) -- "lived not again" until the future resurrection (Rev. 20:7-15). Christ's parousia was the covenanted (Gen. 9:11,5), gracious, SPIRITUAL judgment of the world that fulfilled the merciless, NATURAL judgment of the world by the flood on the last day of Noah's last 100 pre-flood years.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hymenaeus - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

    Hymenaeus
    HYMENAEUS hī’ mə ne’ əs (̔Υμέναιος, G5628, hymenael, pertaining to Hymen, the god of marriage). A heretical teacher at Ephesus, an opponent of Paul, mentioned with Alexander in 1 Timothy 1:20 and with Philetus in 2 Timothy 2:17. The same man is doubtless in view in both passages. That he is mentioned first in both places implies that he was the leader among these false teachers.

    Hymenaeus and Alexander were among those who, rejecting conscience, had made shipwreck of their faith (1 Tim 1:20). Paul’s delivery of them to Satan has been much discussed (cf. 1 Cor 5:5). Some take the meaning to be simply excommunication from the church, thereby placing them back into the world, the sphere of Satan. Others think it rather signifies supernaturally inflicted bodily punishment. A combination of both views may be involved. That more than mere excommunication is meant seems clear (Job 2:6, 7; 1 Cor 11:30; Rev 2:22) when compared with the cases of apostolic discipline in Acts 5:1-11; 13:11. The discipline, whatever its precise nature, was remedial in its intention, “that they may learn not to blaspheme,” i.e. that they may cease their railing against the true Gospel.

    The discipline had not produced the desired repentance in Hymenaeus when 2 Timothy 2:17, 18 was written. The doctrinal error of Hymenaeus and Philetus, destructively spreading like gangrene, was their denial of an eschatological resurrection. They allegorized the resurrection by insisting that it was a past spiritual experience, having occurred when they were raised from ignorance and sin as they came to know the true God. When they believed that the resurrection took place in the lives of believers is not indicated, perhaps at baptism. They prob. based their teaching on a misinterpretation of Romans 6:1-11 and Colossians 3:1. It was motivated by incipient Gnosticism, which held that matter was evil and that consequently salvation consisted in liberation from the body. The teaching of a future bodily resurrection was deemed illogical and inconceivable (cf. 1 Cor 15:12). That Hymenaeus taught that the resurrection takes place in one’s children is unlikely (cf. Acts of Paul and Thecla 2:14; Ecclus 30:4).

    The development of this heretical teaching in the Ephesian church was a fulfillment of the warning Paul had given the Ephesian elders (Acts 20:29, 30).
     
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