• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

2 things that trouble this agnostic

sbbqb7n16

Veteran - Blue Bible Dude
Jan 13, 2002
2,532
177
40
Texas
Visit site
✟25,010.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm still going to church, and I'm going to read the whole bible to, Ive already read genesis and exodus and I beginning Leviticus today. But some of the comments have kinda [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed me off. Like when people say hell is just, Hitler deserves it, what about my dad he was a rationalist, chose not to believe in something invisible, raised me, took care of me and was a loving father. He died 3 yrs ago and know people are saying he deserves to burn alive. I don't care what religion or faith you belong to that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es me off.
There was a line in the movie Troy where King Odyseus says, "It is no insult to say that a dead man is dead."

Now, if your father is in hell, it is no insult to say that a man in hell is in hell.

It is however very insulting to judge someone - whether you knew them or not - and say that he "deserves to burn alive." I'm sorry for whoever said that to you.

Matt 12:7

7. "But if you had known what this means, `I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

(BTW when words are in all caps in the New Testament, it means they are originally from the Old Testament somewhere - so in this case, yes even the OT God is loving and compassionate)
 
Upvote 0

psalm112

Junior Member
Jun 8, 2007
13
4
33
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ok, I've read the first 3 or so replies and I'm not liking it. I will break this up into the two sections.
Hell:
First of all, the way Digit described Hell is not really accurate. The Bible says that when you die, you are faced with Judgement. At this point you are faced with the full glory of God, something no human can survive. Some people in the Old Testament got to see God, but not in His full glory. Elijah once got to be near Him, but God told him to turn his back and not look as He walked by. Another person in the Bible (I can't remember who it was at the moment, I wish I could) saw Him, but God filled the room with black smoke so that he couldn't actually see Him. Moses was given the Ten Commandments by God in person. Moses' face was so incredibly bright and white when he got back that people couldn't look at it! He actually had to wear a veil for weeks! Getting back to the point, when we are faced with the full glory of God, He judges us. He is the ultimate law.
Now, it says in the Bible that when you accept Christ, your name is written in the "Book of Life". If your name is in there, you go to Heaven. Your sins have been paid for by Christ, and you are pure enough to be in the presence of God. If not, you are judged, and you go to Hell. The Bible uses a couple times the term "Lake of Fire", and it says in many places that there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Now, it is far beyond our imaginations. We can never truly grasp the concept of it. You spend eternity there. Once Jesus comes back, however, He will take all his followers to Heaven. The Earth will then become Hell, and everyone else will be there, along with everyone who was already in Hell. No, you don't just sleep until you get moved there.
Now, this harsh reality is painful and disturbing. You must understand a few things, though. First of all, whether you believe it or not, it's true. Things do not become real just because you believe them, they aren't false because you don't believe them, and everything in the Bible is real whether you believe it or not. I could believe with all my heart that I have a million dollars in my pocket, but that doesn't mean I do. Second, you don't go to Hell for nothing. Anyone who goes to Hell is there because they were sinful like everyone else, but did not accept Jesus' forgiveness.
Now, no one but God could truly explain this to you, but you need to understand that He is an infinitely powerful, intelligent, logical, loving being. We can't fully understand why He made Hell, or why people are sent there. We can understand, however, that God gave us two choices, and there is no in-between. God knows what He's doing, and He wants us to make the logical choice. You don't need to have all the answers, just take a leap of faith and have trust that He will catch you.
I'm sorry about your father. It is painful, and I understand how difficult it is to accept something like that as a reality. But God always knows what He is doing. He loves you, and He loves your father. It hurts Him too. Now, I'll be honest. I can't explain why God did this, but it's not exactly His fault. You see, He gave us a choice so that we could have free will. It is our own choice that decides whether we have to face Hell or not.
Now, you can take one of two thing from this discussion. You can say, "I don't know why God did this, but I trust Him, and I will make sure I get to Heaven and take as many people with me as I can." Then when you die, you will see God, and, as it says in the Bible, He will say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." Here's your other possibility: you say, "God sent my father to Hell, so I don't want to believe in Him." Then, I'm sorry to say, you will go to Hell too. You may not agree with God's decision, but it was His, not yours. Now you have your own decision to make. Therefore, make the best choice.
I'm sorry if this was a painful or angering discussion, but I'm not making this up. If you have more questions or aren't clear about something I said, just let me know. God bless you!
 
Upvote 0

psalm112

Junior Member
Jun 8, 2007
13
4
33
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ok, I've read the first 3 or so replies and I'm not liking it. I will break this up into the two sections.
Hell:
First of all, the way Digit described Hell is not really accurate. The Bible says that when you die, you are faced with Judgement. At this point you are faced with the full glory of God, something no human can survive. Some people in the Old Testament got to see God, but not in His full glory. Elijah once got to be near Him, but God told him to turn his back and not look as He walked by. Another person in the Bible (I can't remember who it was at the moment, I wish I could) saw Him, but God filled the room with black smoke so that he couldn't actually see Him. Moses was given the Ten Commandments by God in person. Moses' face was so incredibly bright and white when he got back that people couldn't look at it! He actually had to wear a veil for weeks! Getting back to the point, when we are faced with the full glory of God, He judges us. He is the ultimate law.
Now, it says in the Bible that when you accept Christ, your name is written in the "Book of Life". If your name is in there, you go to Heaven. Your sins have been paid for by Christ, and you are pure enough to be in the presence of God. If not, you are judged, and you go to Hell. The Bible uses a couple times the term "Lake of Fire", and it says in many places that there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Now, it is far beyond our imaginations. We can never truly grasp the concept of it. You spend eternity there. Once Jesus comes back, however, He will take all his followers to Heaven. The Earth will then become Hell, and everyone else will be there, along with everyone who was already in Hell. No, you don't just sleep until you get moved there.
Now, this harsh reality is painful and disturbing. You must understand a few things, though. First of all, whether you believe it or not, it's true. Things do not become real just because you believe them, they aren't false because you don't believe them, and everything in the Bible is real whether you believe it or not. I could believe with all my heart that I have a million dollars in my pocket, but that doesn't mean I do. Second, you don't go to Hell for nothing. Anyone who goes to Hell is there because they were sinful like everyone else, but did not accept Jesus' forgiveness.
Now, no one but God could truly explain this to you, but you need to understand that He is an infinitely powerful, intelligent, logical, loving being. We can't fully understand why He made Hell, or why people are sent there. We can understand, however, that God gave us two choices, and there is no in-between. God knows what He's doing, and He wants us to make the logical choice. You don't need to have all the answers, just take a leap of faith and have trust that He will catch you.
I'm sorry about your father. It is painful, and I understand how difficult it is to accept something like that as a reality. But God always knows what He is doing. He loves you, and He loves your father. It hurts Him too. Now, I'll be honest. I can't explain why God did this, but it's not exactly His fault. You see, He gave us a choice so that we could have free will. It is our own choice that decides whether we have to face Hell or not.
Now, you can take one of two thing from this discussion. You can say, "I don't know why God did this, but I trust Him, and I will make sure I get to Heaven and take as many people with me as I can." Then when you die, you will see God, and, as it says in the Bible, He will say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." Here's your other possibility: you say, "God sent my father to Hell, so I don't want to believe in Him." Then, I'm sorry to say, you will go to Hell too. You may not agree with God's decision, but it was His, not yours. Now you have your own decision to make. Therefore, make the best choice.
I'm sorry if this was a painful or angering discussion, but I'm not making this up. If you have more questions or aren't clear about something I said, just let me know. God bless you!
 
Upvote 0

psalm112

Junior Member
Jun 8, 2007
13
4
33
✟22,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry about that duplicate; it was an accident. Ok, now comes the fun topic of evolution. Sorry if it seems a little mean, but when it comes to these kinds of things (evolution, global warming, abortion, etc.), I get this anger that I accidentally vent through my argument. Please bear with me through this. You will have a complete and definite conclusion.

I have done my homework on this, and I know what I'm talking about. First, let me describe evolution: a load of unproven garbage used as an excuse for mankind to set its own standard and not face the greater judgement. Well, you hear about it all the time. No one ever debates it anymore; we take for granted that it's true. Let me be clear about one thing though. There is such a thing as biological evolution that occurs, usually in more short-term forms than the "billions" of years you hear about. I won't go into that, though, but rather to the real debate, which is whether people and other creatures on earth evolved from more primitive creatures. To start, this is, in fact, totally false.

Now, you hear it all the time. References of evolution are used all the time, but rarely is it actually discussed or debated anymore. In school, they tell you that the earth is billions of years old, that we all evolved from primitive beings. But tell me, outside of a Christian environment, do you ever hear anything opposing it? No. Why not hear both sides? Because evolutionists are standing on a very delicate and fragile belief that can be easily broken. Either they take it for granted and don't really know much about it, or they know enough about it that they try to censor any opposition to it. Why are they so nervous about an alternative view being argued? They know how many gaping holes are left in the theory (no, it is not a proven fact), and they don't want them to be realized. Atheism controls almost all of television and the media. They try to cover up alternative theories. They try to get you to take it for granted and not ask questions. How often do you hear references to or arguments of beliefs other than evolution? And so, people naturally assume that evolution is true because no one says otherwise, and it seems to be taken for granted everywhere you go. Some people are innocently fooled and try to mix it with the Bible, because they're both true, right? Why do they believe it even though they believe in the Bible? Because they learned it in school. They saw it on TV. Somebody told them, and no one told them otherwise.

Now is the fun part, where I will disprove evolution (as defined earlier: creatures changing over billions of years) scientifically. Here's something you've never heard about: the earth has pressure built up underneath its crust, which gradually increases. If our planet was any older than 10,000 years, it would explode. The theory of evolution states that humans, as well as other creatures, evolved over millions of years to what they are today. If the earth is, in fact no more than 10 years old, that does not give enough time for this gradual process to finish. Well, that takes care of evolution by itself, but don't worry. I have more where that came from. Evolutionist scientists have labeled different periods in the supposed billions of years of the earth's existence (eg. jurassic, cretacious, etc.) by looking at layers of rock in the Grand Canyon. Each period of time is based on one of those layers (eg. the jurassic layer formed during the jurassic era). The funny thing is, they're in different orders in other parts of the world! In Canada, for example, the newest layer is on the bottom, and the oldest is on top. Therefore, this is not accurate. Here's something else they don't tell you. We have no scientific dating methods that work accurately on objects that have been dead for very long! Carbon dating, one of the most trusted scientific dating methods, was tested on a seal that had been dead for 30 years. It said it was thousands of years old! A group of Christian scientists tested tree bark from a living tree, and it said it was 10,000 years old! Other dating methods have proven to be useless for things that have been dead for very long, too. Therefore, when evolutionists point to dating results of rock, fossils, etc., they're information is wrong. Another thing you never hear about is that the theory of evolution pretty much went out the window at the discovery of DNA for most scientists who actually know what they're talking about. Fossils don't even take millions of years to form. Many objects have been found to be fossilized even though they are only e few decades old. For example, a fossilized cowboy boot was found in Texas. The pattern was visible on one side, so the scientists took it to different companies. One claimed the design as one they used in the 1950's! A glass bottle and ceramic bowl were found fossilized in a shipwreck that occurred in the 1980's! I have many other examples, but it would take too long to say them all. Well, there's plenty of scientific evidence. To anyone reading this: if you have more questions, I have more answers. Feel free to ask.

Here's a logical debunking of evolution. If there is no God, where did everything come from? If evolution is true, there was no creation, no beginning. If there was no beginning, that means there has been an infinite period of time for everything to evolve. If everything has been evolving for eternity, it should all be perfect by now. Why don't creatures still evolve today? We know people have not changed since well beyond Jesus' time. Why have we not evolved at all during the last 2 thousand plus years? The theory of evolution involves not just time, but a series of random and incredibly unlikely scientific accidents. Everything about our world - our distance from the sun, the amount of water on the earth, the atmosphere, the occurence of life, the size - all ties together so perfectly that no scientific conclusion can be reached without the reality of God. Oh, here's a cool story. So I went to a store and bought a but of springs, screws, gears, small metal plates, etc. As I was walking home, I shook the bag the whole way. When I got home, I reached in the bag and pulled out a pocket watch. All the pieces had coincidentally fallen together just right as I was shaking it that it made a working, ticking watch. You don't believe me do you? Well doesn't evolution seem just as outrageous? If the earth was 1 inch closer to the sun, we would burn up, and we would freeze if it was an inch farther away. Along with the perfect amount of water, the sudden occurrence of life, the perfect size, and the right atmosphere all at once, there is no way it could be an accident!

Now for the Biblical part. To form an opinion, you need to know all the facts from both sides of the argument, and something to back up your opinion. If you believe in God, and you believe in the Bible, you shouldn't need anything else. Once you have a solid belief in the Bible, the answers you find in it will stand firm upon that foundation. The Bible says that in the Creation, God created the universe and everything in it in 6 days, and rested on the seventh. It says that all He had to do was speak, and it was there. He said, "Let there be light", and there was light. When He made creatures, He did not say, "Let there be creatures that will, after billions of years, become exactly the way I want them." Why would He bother? Why make an earth that spends more time becoming just right than actually having people on it? You cannot mix evolution and the Bible. They conflict; they are incompatible. They can't both be real at the same time. And since we just ruled evolution out, there's one thing left.

I hope this was helpful. God bless you!
 
Upvote 0

LutheranHawkeye

Regular Member
Jun 5, 2006
959
58
Iowa
✟16,424.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
I do agree with psalm112 about Digits claims on how hell and death are. Hell is real. When we die we go to heaven or hell. These are essential points contained in the early creeds to stamp out heresies. The Church of Christ rejects the creeds because they are apart of the restoration movement. Restoration churches include Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and the Church of Christ. Could we get someone with a creedal position to talk to Katie and not a restorationist. It would benefit her more to be apart of any stable church. Not a church that still cannot decide if instruments during worship is evil. Godbless :crossrc: Katie
 
Upvote 0

Katie7725

Regular Member
Jun 6, 2007
1,033
15
37
✟16,290.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
you know everything about heaven and hell, that your interpretation of the bible or that your personal image of God is the right one even though you have never met him. There are hundred, if not thousands of religions and a lot of interpretations. There is a possibility that the concept of God is just a man made creation. Don't come here spouting arrogance and claim them of wishing. They are honest, no one truly knows God. No man can be 100% certain. The supernatural doesn't lie in the natural world so it will always be a mystery to mankind. I think you are the one that is wishing. You wish your religious system is correct so your butt is safe but what scares you deep down is the fact that you might be wasting your time. But what kind of God would burn you in a oven for not guessing the unknowable. A sick God if that's the case.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
you know everything about heaven and hell, that your interpretation of the bible or that your personal image of God is the right one even though you have never met him. There are hundred, if not thousands of religions and a lot of interpretations. There is a possibility that the concept of God is just a man made creation. Don't come here spouting arrogance and claim them of wishing. They are honest, no one truly knows God. No man can be 100% certain. The supernatural doesn't lie in the natural world so it will always be a mystery to mankind. I think you are the one that is wishing. You wish your religious system is correct so your butt is safe but what scares you deep down is the fact that you might be wasting your time. But what kind of God would burn you in a oven for not guessing the unknowable. A sick God if that's the case.
So your 100% positive....


you know everything about heaven and hell, that your interpretation of the bible or that your personal image of God is the right one even though you have never met him.
Personally - no. I'm pretty sure that I'll have got heaps of stuff wrong. But I'm also pretty confident that the core stuff is at least approximately right.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
But what kind of God would burn you in a oven for not guessing the unknowable. A sick God if that's the case.

You are absolutely right. Such a God, if it exists, is not worthy of worship.

But try not to be too harsh on people who say such things. We all struggle in using human language to speak of spiritual things, and sometimes we end up spouting nonsense because it is hard to express spiritual reality in human words.

I find it much more helpful to focus on what it means to be a Christian in daily life now than to speculate on the furniture of heaven or the temperature of hell. I trust in the love, mercy and justice of God to sort things out properly in the end.

For that reason, I avoid churches that focus more on the afterlife than on this life. The afterlife is in God's hands. But here and now is where I have to choose how to live today. If Christianity helps me do that, then it is worth pursuing. And if I walk in the way of Christ today, why do I need to worry about life after death? It is already a settled matter.
 
Upvote 0
T

toddsgurlforever27

Guest
:angel: well i hope i can help with some honest thoughts. Hell is real. its not easy to except this but it is the truth. and us, as GODS children, were never ment to go there. it was ment for satan and the fallen angels. however only those who except CHRIST into their hearts will allowed into heaven. HIS love for us is infinate and never changing. just except him and live for him. you will get there. if you want to chat please get back to me because i would love to talk more with you.
 
Upvote 0