• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

2 things that trouble this agnostic

prophecystudent

Senior Member
Oct 10, 2005
526
76
87
✟1,313.00
Faith
Christian
First, welcome to the forum.

Now, regarding hell being eternal, it is! The bible is clear.

Revelation 14, verse 11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Read Revelation for a good overview of how long hell lasts.

I can understand your confusion. But consider that God while loving us, is also a righteous God and will not tolerate sin.

That is why He sent Jesus as the one time sacrifice to pay for al our sins. He (God) only asks that we recognize that sacrifice and accept the free gift of eternity with Him.

Being righteous, God provided a solution for sinful mankind. Nowhere in the bible does it hint that hell is not forever.

Concerning evolution, in spite of what some would have us believe, evolution is a theory, and not supported by evidence. Mathmatical probability alone assures us that it is impossible, as one post already showed.

Another post dealt with laws of physics. I would ask that person to explain the law of physics that allows, or causes, something to spring into existence from nothing. There is no such law.

Many of the so-called proofs of evolution have been proven to be false. Some were simply mistakes, others were fraud.

The widest evolutionary belief is that it all started with the big bang.

OK, the big bang occurred (according to them) when an inconceivably large collection of hydrogen atoms were collected together in one place, resulting in a HUGE nuclear explosion in which all matter was created.

Question: Where did all the hydrogen atoms come from?

Question: Since one law of physics says that in a vaccum gas particles will disperse evenly to fill the space allocated, hydrogen atoms would have dispersed throughout the universe, not be drawn to one place.

Now, what provided the inconceivably huge magnetic force to draw the lightest atoms known across billions and billions and billions of miles into one place, and then compact them so tight that a thermonuclear reaction/explosion took place?

In short, nothing springs, by itself, into existence from nothing. THerefor, there must have been a creator to cause that to happen. This includes the hydrogen atoms and the magnetic forces required.

I repeat, evolution may be called a theory, but in my mind it is not, it is a set of conclusions drawn to fit a very limited set of observations.

As one person said, not the same designs, the same designer.

Fred

PS.

We cannot work our way to salvation. None of us are good enough to get there without Christ and His salvation. When the bible speaks of our "good works" it is referring to those good deeds we do after we are born again. That judgement, which all believers will experience, determines our rewards in heaven. It has nothing to do with our salvation.

Fred
 
Upvote 0

Faith In God

A little FIG is all we need...
Apr 3, 2004
26,429
371
Texas
✟44,060.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Welcome to CF! :wave:

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies. If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

What would you think would be justice for Hitler?
Keep in mind that at his hand, many millions died a long, slow, torturous death. And that he killed himself: presumably a quick relatively painless death.
What's just for that crime?

I, for one, would grimace and seriously question a Judge (God) Who would turn a blind eye to such evil.

But then, what about other evils?
Rapists? Murderers?
Atheists? Perhaps they aren't all rapists and murderers, but they have hated, stolen, lusted for people they have no right to...
God is perfectly holy: if He did not judge by His standard, He would be unjust by nature.

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

Some do. I don't touch the topic: evolutionists AND creationists both say the same things about the other, continuously undermining each other's factual arguments.
I don't worry about it. It's not that important an issue, as far as a person's salvation is concerned.
 
Upvote 0

Rafael

Only time enough for love
Jul 25, 2002
2,570
319
74
Midwest
Visit site
✟6,445.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello Katie
If you really think evolution is convincing over intelligent design, I can suggest some very good reading by Lee Strobel. He set out, as an atheist, to once and for all disprove Christianity. Long story short, he spoke with many scientists, philosophers, and men of high degree in education - PHDs, etc. He ended up converted to great faith in Christ, as have others who use science in an unbiased way to get to truth. Approaching any truth with prejudice results in what one wants rather than what is true. Many of this world's greatest scientists and geniuses were believers in Yashua (Jesus) the promised Messiah and Savior of mankind. Newton, Maxwell, and many more......including Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., a physician-geneticist noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes, and his visionary leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP), is director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI). He converted to Christianity from a family background that was agnostic. A bit of his story: http://www.cnn.com/video/player/pla...v/2007/04/03/foreman.francis.collins.intv.cnn
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html
I recommend "A Case For Faith" and "A Case For A Creator". Both by Lee Strobel and cheap, used, at Amazon books.
 
Upvote 0

MrDave

Junior Member
May 14, 2007
19
8
✟22,700.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dear Sam:

I still don't understand. What if you never hear about God or Jesus? Do you go to hell anyway? Even if you are a nice and good person?

Sam

Sam, you have asked probably the most commonly asked question. “What about those who have never heard?” But first, let’s address the question: “even if you are a nice and good person”.

One day a man approached Jesus and said, “{Good Master}, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, God…”

So the question must be, who gets to define GOOD? What is the standard for GOOD? To whom are we comparing ourselves against? How GOOD do I have to be to be GOOD enough for God?

Well if humans compare themselves to other humans, then perhaps they are JUST AS GOOD as the BEST of humans. But since God gets to be the judge of who is GOOD and who is not, then we must compare ourselves against GOD’S definition of GOOD. So what does God say? Jesus gave the answer right here. NO ONE IS GOOD but GOD. The Bible refers to GOOD WORKS as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20

But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy {rags}…Isaiah 64:6

There is {none righteous}, no, not one,There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12

That except your righteousness shall {exceed} [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 You and me, don’t measure up.

There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. Matthew10:26

He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. 1Corinthians 4:5

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him(GOD) a liar, and his word is not in us. I John 1:8,10

If we compare ourselves against others we may compare favorably, but God’s standard is PERFECTION.

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful." (The Bible, Revelation 21:27)


For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall {exceed} [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

So God says, no one is GOOD enough. Not the pope, not Mother Teresa, not Ghandi, not Billy Graham, not the apostle Paul, looks what he says about himself, Romans 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Not you and not me.

The more a person understands God, the more that person becomes aware of his sinfulness. Listen to Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of {unclean lips}, and I dwell in the midst of a people of {unclean lips}: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Mae West had it right when she said, “Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.”

The standard God requires is SINLESS PERFECTION and no human can attain this, but one. Jesus who was the God and Man. Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life, never even THOUGHT a sin.

So the truth is, all these “nice and good” people are only just as nice and good as all the others who aren’t GOOD ENOUGH. We ALL don’t make it, we all FALL SHORT of God’s requirement.

So, you might say; “God has set a standard no one can attain”. RIGHT, that’s what Christianity is saying.
So, you might say; “Then no one can get into heaven!” RIGHT, that’s what Christianity is saying.
So, you might say; “Then we are all doomed!” RIGHT, that’s what Christianity is saying.

EXCEPT…
GOD HAS PROVIDED A WAY SO WE CAN BE SEEN AS PERFECT EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOT!

Let’s say you’re a GOOD BASKETBALL PLAYER and will make 99 out of a 100 foul shots every time. Your better then any other NBA or College or High Schooler that has ever lived. So God says all you have to do is make 1 million foul shots without a miss!!!!! As good as you are, you know that’s impossible. You know you will miss 10,000 times. So then God says, “Well, how about if Jesus, who has never missed a foul shot and never will, shoots in your place?”

Now all you have to do is choose: Do my own foul shooting or let Jesus do my foul shooting.

That basically sums up what Christianity teaches. Your Way or God’s Way…
You choose who shoots for you….Christians chose Jesus to shoot for them. Yeah, it was that easy.
And now we are trying to tell others to let Jesus be their substitute also.

To answer “What about those who never heard” will require another thread.

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
 
Upvote 0

Katie7725

Regular Member
Jun 6, 2007
1,033
15
37
✟16,290.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
this one is for 'Faith in God', if your going to bring up the subject of Hitler why not talk about all the JEWS he tortured and murdered. By your standard god is worse than Hitler b/c at least Hitler only tortured them for a limited amount of time, you believe that Jews will burn forever in hell. Hitlers attitude "be of the white race or be tortured to death" God of Christianity's attitude "Love me or burn in hell forever" seems just as sick and disturbing to me. Also I noticed someone saying someone had to have created the universe, well if thats true then who created god. If god can be eternal than why cant the universe? Someone had to have created god.It is more plausible that simple matter could have existed then an all knowing deity with supernatural powers be here with no creation. I hope i didn't come off as totally rude but that is how I feel and I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.
 
Upvote 0

Katie7725

Regular Member
Jun 6, 2007
1,033
15
37
✟16,290.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Growing up things such as torture where looked upon with disgust. How could someone be happy in heaven when there are millions of people burning in hell. Unless god takes away your free will it would make me sick knowing that people are in pain b/c they didn't believe in the same invisible deity that you did. Oops looks like you made the wrong choice time to burn. If i made it to heaven and I knew there would be fellow human beings in extreme torture at the hand of god, I would spit in his face and tell him how i felt about it b/c no one deserves that kind of punishment, its just plain wrong. I came here hearing about a loving creator but all i see is a torturing dictator. I hope that if there is a god then he isn't a nut job like some of you describe him as. Theres already enough starvation,poverty, pain in this world does the next have to be worse.
 
Upvote 0

Katie7725

Regular Member
Jun 6, 2007
1,033
15
37
✟16,290.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
oh and Faith in God, life isn't fair. Its our responsibility to try to make it as fair as possible but bad things happen to good people all the time. I could get hit by a car tomorrow and die and a serial killer could evade the law and live another day.
 
Upvote 0

Katie7725

Regular Member
Jun 6, 2007
1,033
15
37
✟16,290.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm still going to church, and I'm going to read the whole bible to, Ive already read genesis and exodus and I beginning Leviticus today. But some of the comments have kinda [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed me off. Like when people say hell is just, Hitler deserves it, what about my dad he was a rationalist, chose not to believe in something invisible, raised me, took care of me and was a loving father. He died 3 yrs ago and know people are saying he deserves to burn alive. I don't care what religion or faith you belong to that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es me off.
 
Upvote 0

Shubunkin

Antiochian Orthodox Christian
Jun 18, 2005
14,188
634
✟17,565.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The Orthodox Church teaches that God is omnipresent, so that even in hell God's love is there. After Jesus died on the cross he went down to hades and preached to the previous believers there. This quote tells us that the believers in Christ are alive, though they seem dead to us here.

Matthew 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

As far as the Lake of Fire (which people confuse with hell)... it is the second death.

See Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

No indication of an eternal torture there.
 
Upvote 0

foxsta

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti Amen
Site Supporter
Jun 15, 2006
1,786
79
38
Australia
Visit site
✟69,895.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
wow, orthodox sounds like the best version of Christianity so far
I encourage you to check out the 'Apostolic' Churches (EO, OO, RC, and arguably maybe Anglican)...they are very theologically developed and have a great understanding of things
 
Upvote 0

christianmomof3

pursuing Christ
Apr 12, 2005
12,798
1,230
61
in Christ
✟33,425.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm still going to church, and I'm going to read the whole bible to, Ive already read genesis and exodus and I beginning Leviticus today. But some of the comments have kinda [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed me off. Like when people say hell is just, Hitler deserves it, what about my dad he was a rationalist, chose not to believe in something invisible, raised me, took care of me and was a loving father. He died 3 yrs ago and know people are saying he deserves to burn alive. I don't care what religion or faith you belong to that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es me off.
:hug: I am sorry about your father.
My parents have also passed away and they were not Christians. I agree with cygne that the lake of fire is not the same as hell and our loved ones who have passed away without being Christians are not there.
I don't have all the answers about death. I have not died yet so I don't know exactly what will happen.
But I do believe that the Lord knows and that He can answer your questions and give you peace about your situation and the questions that you have. God is righteous, just and loving. He is Peace and He is Love. I pray that you will come to know Him and enjoy Him as your Peace, Faith and Hope. :prayer:
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I'm still going to church, and I'm going to read the whole bible to, Ive already read genesis and exodus and I beginning Leviticus today. But some of the comments have kinda [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed me off. Like when people say hell is just, Hitler deserves it, what about my dad he was a rationalist, chose not to believe in something invisible, raised me, took care of me and was a loving father. He died 3 yrs ago and know people are saying he deserves to burn alive. I don't care what religion or faith you belong to that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es me off.

I agree with you. That bugs me too. Its the problem with having a theory but not seeing the person.

Jesus once asked his listeners what they would do if their son asked for bread. Would they give the child a stone? Or would they give him a snake when he asked for fish? Of course, they would not. Jesus conclude, if you who are sinful know enough to give good things to your children, why do you doubt that God wants to give you good things?

You knew your father and you know what kind of person he was. Have confidence that God cannot love him any less than you do or be any less just to him than you would be.

People who would condemn him without even knowing him should be put on ignore.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,864
✟344,531.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I, with great respect for Christians, would like to post some things that trouble me about religion. If you can help me get over these problems pleeeez feel free to comment.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot.
The eternal furnace is, I believe, a metaphor. For a readable explanation of Hell, I would suggest reading C S Lewis's The Great Divorce.

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?
Many Christians believe that Evolution was the mechanism God used to create the world. That's called Theistic Evolution. Other Christians are worried by what they feel are weaknesses in the evidence for Evolution.

Ok thx for taking the time to read this, I hope it didn't bore u to tears. If u can help me deal with these troubles please feel free to comment.
No genuine question from another human being can ever be boring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Digit
Upvote 0