2 Thess. 2:9 and Rev. 14:9-10: Possible contradiction?

[Achilles6129]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

Hi Achilles,

I'll just attempt to wrap this up real quick for you, but first I'll state something I'm sure you already know, just so we're all on the same page hermeneutically: when we interpret the Bible, we need to do our best to take the whole Word of God into consideration, with all of its statements, all of its implications, and all of its overlapping contexts.

In this case, I think what Paul says represents a more literal type of description regarding the final end of those who rebel against God, and it is intended to cut to the chase regarding the full fate of those who will defy God---and this is also seen in the final portions of the book of Revelation, but in a more metaphorical kind of way. There, we see that everyone who defies God, whether having hung around either on Earth or in Hades, is eventually tossed into the final Lake of Fire, which Paul never mentions.

That's my view. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm open to hearing what anyone else has to say.

Either way, its bad news.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Edmond Smith]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

First this is 2 Thessalonians 2:9

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (KJV)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of signs and false wonders, (NASB)

This is speaking about the Anti-Christ, who comes after the false prophet shows himself going about with Satanic powers and lying wonders.

Thought you would like to know.
Would like to know what the one you have is from though.

 

[Greg J.]

Both these passage are talking about attributes of the time period that includes the last days on earth, what happens on Judgment Day, and some people's eternal destination. The writer may be connecting each statement in terms of what happens and why they happen, but do not necessarily have to be connected chronologically for the writer to accomplish his purpose (of explaining what is yet to come).

On Judgment Day those destined for the Lake of Fire will already be suffering (i.e., in the presence of God and angels). Seeing God is an intense experience (Exodus 33:20). Then when thrown into the Lake of Fire will no longer be in God's presence.

Also, while God and his angels will not be present in the Lake of Fire, they might be considered to be "looking on" what is happening there.

These are just some thoughts. Perhaps someone can answer with a more researched "scholarly" answer (which might not be conclusive, either).

 

[Achilles6129]

First this is 2 Thessalonians 2:9

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (KJV)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of signs and false wonders, (NASB)

This is speaking about the Anti-Christ, who comes after the false prophet shows himself going about with Satanic powers and lying wonders.

Thought you would like to know.
Would like to know what the one you have is from though.

Sorry, I misquoted the passage. It should be 2 Thess. 1:9, not 2:9.

 

[Achilles6129]

The eternal future of the wicked cast into the
lake of fire is found in Isaiah 66:-22-24....Malachi 1...
Daniel 12:2....Isaiah 34 as to the land where Edom is.

Right. So how does that agree with Rev. 14:9-10?

 

[Achilles6129]

Could you elaborate further? It may be that the seven angels of Rev. 8:2 are the same as the seven angels of the seven churches.

 

[Achilles6129]

John would not have written messages to regular angels, nor
would those be regular angels reading the letters in Asia. They were
not flying angels. The letters written, tell them to repent.

OK, can you elaborate further? Are you saying that the seven angels before God in Rev. 8:2 are the same as the seven angels of the seven churches, or no?

 

[Achilles6129]

No, the Rev. 8 seven angels are the ones from Rev. 15:1.

OK, fair enough - but what does this have to do with the possible contradiction between 2 Th. 1:9-10 and Rev. 14:9-10?

 

[1213]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

Could it be that Rev. 14:9-10 happens first and then after that 2 Thess. 2:9?

 

[Achilles6129]

Could it be that Rev. 14:9-10 happens first and then after that 2 Thess. 2:9?

But Rev. 14:9-10 says it happens forever and ever. Maybe it's talking about two different people groups?

 

[1213]

But Rev. 14:9-10 says it happens forever and ever. Maybe it's talking about two different people groups?

It tells the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. I think it is not same as they exist forever.

The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Ilm. 14:11

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

Jesus is both the Lamb and the Lord, God.

"The “presence”—or, more literally here, ”the face—of the Lord,” as well as “the glory of His power,” is a metaphor from the courts of Oriental kings, where only honoured courtiers are admitted to spend their time in the immediate and familiar presence of the sovereign. Familiar contact with Christ hereafter, which will be accorded to all the saved, was God’s ideal intention for the lost as well, therefore it is a positive “destruction” to be banished from it." "

Thus the angels would be the "honoured courtiers" and some may read it to mean that Jesus is one of those too.

Mattheww 25
31“When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, 32 and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him. Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the righteous people at his right and the others at his left. 34 Then the King will say to the people on his right, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world. 35 I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, 36 naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? 38 When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these followers of mine, you did it for me!’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; 43 I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’ 44 Then they will answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you?’ 45 The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.’ 46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.”

In short the punishment must start in God's direct presence and will continue after they are no longer in his direct presence.

 

[Adstar]

"9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 2:9 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10 (NASB)

I have no problem with these two verses.. Because they are both correct in different ways...

Those that will be cast into the eternal Lake of fire will be physically seperated from God and the heavenly host by the great gulf...

Luke 16: KJV
25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. {26} And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

But at the same time Jesus and the Heavenly Host will be able to see across the Gulf and witness their torment.. So in this way these people are being tormented in the presence of the LORD and the Heavenly Host.. So both scriptures are true and accurate...

 

[Achilles6129]

Compare to Isaiah 34:10 and Malachi 1:4 .

I think those are referring to different events. "Edom" can be symbolic for anyone outside of Israel, though it is also used of historical Edom. I think that Isaiah 34 is talking about the end of the age.