2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

jgr said:

So the writer of Hebrews is describing the fulfillment, in Christ, of the cessation of the sacrifices to which Daniel refers in Daniel 9:27.

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No, that is wrong. That is not what it is referring to.

Kevin Snow said:

No, that is wrong. That is not what it is referring to.

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Daniel said that the sacrifices would cease.
Paul (whom I think was the writer of Hebrews) said that the sacrifices did cease.

Isn't that fulfillment?

jgr said:

Daniel said that the sacrifices would cease.
Paul (whom I think was the writer of Hebrews) said that the sacrifices did cease.

Isn't that fulfillment?

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Not when they aren't talking about the same thing.

Kevin Snow said:

Not when they aren't talking about the same thing.

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When Daniel said something would happen, and Paul said that it happen, and they were both speaking about sacrifices; how could they not be talking about the same thing?

Kevin Snow said:

My context is the earth and all the word of God. Not the chapter. You have to see the whole thing as one. For God has said, "Yahweh is one."

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Being philosophical is not helping your case , There is specifically stated a specific purpose that Gods sends the man of sin , to fulfill a specific purpose , in order to truly understand what 2Thess 2 is referring to you have to know what the context of the purpose that God is revealing in how and why there is a Man of Sin - not just any man that sins , but why God is sending him .
not understanding the chapter can lead to misunderstanding other parts of Gods Word -"Yahweh is one." Is not the context of the chapter

jgr said:

When Daniel said something would happen, and Paul said that it happen, and they were both speaking about sacrifices; how could they not be talking about the same thing?

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Because what Paul spoke of ended forever but what Daniel spoke of ended for a very short time and started back up again. The vision of the evening and mornings is about the regular burnt offering which is offered in the temple in the last days. This is put to an end by the man of lawlessness but is later restored. It only takes 2300 evenings and mornings for these sacrifices to be restored.

seventysevens said:

Being philosophical is not helping your case , There is specifically stated a specific purpose that Gods sends the man of sin , to fulfill a specific purpose , in order to truly understand what 2Thess 2 is referring to you have to know what the context of the purpose that God is revealing in how and why there is a Man of Sin - not just any man that sins , but why God is sending him .
not understanding the chapter can lead to misunderstanding other parts of Gods Word -"Yahweh is one." Is not the context of the chapter

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Yahweh is one is the context of every single word. I already told you we have to part ways here. You can't see what it is I am pointing out since you would have to also see the full interpretation of Daniel and Revelations also. Then the small word in Thessalonians becomes clear. Also the word in Ecclesiastes you would have to understand, for they are all speaking about the same thing. And in Proverbs. But this picture I will not give to you because it is not the format for such a revelation.

Kevin Snow said:

Yahweh is one is the context of every single word. I already told you we have to part ways here. You can't see what it is I am pointing out since you would have to also see the full interpretation of Daniel and Revelations also. Then the small word in Thessalonians becomes clear. Also the word in Ecclesiastes you would have to understand, for they are all speaking about the same thing. And in Proverbs. But this picture I will not give to you because it is not the format for such a revelation.

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So what you are saying is because you cannot really support what you are saying , then it becomes context of every single word - , it is a big mixing bowl when you cannot prove me wrong - The entire Chapter of 2Thess2 is all about one event , that is also noted in other books of scripture , as you keep saying a prince of the covenant, , but that prince is not of God but it sure seems like you are comparing him to Jesus-

seventysevens said:

So what you are saying is because you cannot really support what you are saying , then it becomes context of every single word - , it is a big mixing bowl when you cannot prove me wrong - The entire Chapter of 2Thess2 is all about one event , that is also noted in other books of scripture , as you keep saying a prince of the covenant, , but that prince is not of God but it sure seems like you are comparing him to Jesus-

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You haven't proven ME wrong. The reason I say we should part ways is because I'm not going to go any further with it. I've already shown it to be the case that it can NOT be talking about the Holy Spirit because of the fact that there is NO place in scripture that depicts this "out of the way" Holy Spirit. But I did show you that the prince of the covenant matches this description.

So yes, I did prove you wrong but you are obstinate in believing what you want to believe. So go your way. Let's move on. You're content to think that the Holy Spirit simply steps aside for the man of lawlessness and this is not in scripture. What does it mean for the Holy Spirit to do this? What does this look like? What does it even mean? You provide no such answers but are content to think what you want. So move on already. If that's how obstinate you are, then why don't you recognize yourself that we are to part ways?

Kevin Snow said:

You haven't proven ME wrong. The reason I say we should part ways is because I'm not going to go any further with it. I've already shown it to be the case that it can NOT be talking about the Holy Spirit because of the fact that there is NO place in scripture that depicts this "out of the way" Holy Spirit. But I did show you that the prince of the covenant matches this description.

So yes, I did prove you wrong but you are obstinate in believing what you want to believe. So go your way. Let's move on. You're content to think that the Holy Spirit simply steps aside for the man of lawlessness and this is not in scripture. What does it mean for the Holy Spirit to do this? What does this look like? What does it even mean? You provide no such answers but are content to think what you want. So move on already. If that's how obstinate you are, then why don't you recognize yourself that we are to part ways?

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So what you are saying , just as you have done with others is just to insist that you are right simply because you say so .. .and when you cannot find a scripture anywhere but one book of the bible that simply accepting what The chapter as a Whole speaks of , you reject Gods word only because you can't find it repeatedly , Hermeneutics is something that you rather not use when it goes against you , I notice in several posts that you show to be obstinate when people disagree with you ,
You speak as though you are in some lofty understanding and when people disagree you become obstinate .
No you did not prove me wrong , you did not prove anything at all , you just expressed your opinion and you don't like it when people question your opinions , so rather than providing a real valid case you prefer to just tell people that they are obstinate as you cannot really back up what you say,
Scripture says the restrainer is taken out of the way , it does not say taken out if the earth but simply out of the way , 99.99999% of the time when anyone say to take something out of the way , or get out of the way they mean just move to one side or the other, THEE only one that can restrain the evil for thousands of years , as even Paul stated it in His writings is GOD , The Holy Spirit
you have put too much focus on what peoples interpretations have said and not on what exactly the scripture says , saying that you know and others cant know is nothing short than puffing up

seventysevens said:

So what you are saying , just as you have done with others is just to insist that you are right simply because you say so .. .and when you cannot find a scripture anywhere but one book of the bible that simply accepting what The chapter as a Whole speaks of , you reject Gods word only because you can't find it repeatedly , Hermeneutics is something that you rather not use when it goes against you , I notice in several posts that you show to be obstinate when people disagree with you ,
You speak as though you are in some lofty understanding and when people disagree you become obstinate .
No you did not prove me wrong , you did not prove anything at all , you just expressed your opinion and you don't like it when people question your opinions , so rather than providing a real valid case you prefer to just tell people that they are obstinate as you cannot really back up what you say,
Scripture says the restrainer is taken out of the way , it does not say taken out if the earth but simply out of the way , 99.99999% of the time when anyone say to take something out of the way , or get out of the way they mean just move to one side or the other, THEE only one that can restrain the evil for thousands of years , as even Paul stated it in His writings is GOD , The Holy Spirit
you have put too much focus on what peoples interpretations have said and not on what exactly the scripture says , saying that you know and others cant know is nothing short than puffing up

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No, this is what you have done. You only express your opinion and then you call your opinion the word of God.

I have sought to be humble here by parting ways and saying the Lord will reveal it to you in time. Then you took this as though you had won the discussion. You are all turned about.

And as you are wrong about your interpretation, so you are wrong about me. And the problem of proof is on your shoulders. You simply say the Holy Spirit "steps" aside...that's all you have. When there is nothing else in scripture that depicts or prophesies this period of stepping aside. You are blatantly wrong and unwilling to change and this is common for the lot of you.

Kevin Snow said:

No, this is what you have done. You only express your opinion and then you call your opinion the word of God.

I have sought to be humble here by parting ways and saying the Lord will reveal it to you in time. Then you took this as though you had won the discussion. You are all turned about.

And as you are wrong about your interpretation, so you are wrong about me. And the problem of proof is on your shoulders. You simply say the Holy Spirit "steps" aside...that's all you have. When there is nothing else in scripture that depicts or prophesies this period of stepping aside. You are blatantly wrong and unwilling to change and this is common for the lot of you.

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There you go again - insisting you are right and anyone that dares requests proof of you is wrong
The more you boast the worse it gets for you - it is beyond you to simply say that you express your opinion , no humble is not at all what you have shown , you think about it as winning -that is where you are wrong , conversations and discussions are based on people expressing their opinion , You should be willing to just participate and accept others views just as you want your views accepted, but no you won;t do that , merely saying you are right is not proving it , all you had to do is provide scripture and explain it , but you you not willing if you can't be King of the Hill , you failed , but go your way , it be obvious you just looking to boast when you are wrong

Kevin Snow said:

Because what Paul spoke of ended forever but what Daniel spoke of ended for a very short time and started back up again. The vision of the evening and mornings is about the regular burnt offering which is offered in the temple in the last days. This is put to an end by the man of lawlessness but is later restored. It only takes 2300 evenings and mornings for these sacrifices to be restored.

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Daniel prophesies that it is Messiah who will cause the sacrifices to cease, in Daniel 9:27. Paul confirms that it was Messiah who caused the sacrifices to cease, in the book of Hebrews.

Thus it is the same Messiah, and the same sacrifices, to which both authors refer.

1am3laine said:

I'm wondering is the falling away happening now because so many people are speaking against the Holy Spirit via the blasphemy challenge and twitter.

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Inkfingers said:

A falling away, apostasy, from the Grk apostasia meaning "divorce", is people leaving the church, not just random attention-seekers on Youtube...

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No, it's literally an [apostasia], an apostasy or departure in the Church from the law (truth) of God's word by unfaithful (unlawful) man. It is not people leaving the church as Inkfingers thought. This falling away speaks of a time when the Godly man will cease in the Church replaced by the sinful man. When man, led by the spirit of disobedience (the spirit of Satan), begins to forsake the Lord by transgressing His laws, this is called a falling away from God. It is when a man REFUSES to be subject to the authority of God's actual law, becoming the man of lawlessness who is his own ruler in God's house.

This falling away or apostasy is spoken of as the Great Tribulation period in other places. Because it is a time of the loosing of the spirit Satan (that had been restrained) that will trouble the saints. It is the time when the Beast rises out of the pit with all lying signs and wonders to deceive professing Christians WITHIN the church as a judgment of God. For example, in the imagery of the Revelations and the Dragon loosed and commanding his false prophets. Here we see the spirit of Satan as it rules by coming from the mouths of his false prophets.

Revelation 16:13-14

• "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This is the time of apostasy or falling away that 2nd Thessalonians 2 prophesies must take place WITHIN God's congregation before Christ's second advent.

And Inkfingers... the apostasy is when the iniquities taking place in the church. Therefore, it is God's chosen Elect who will LEAVE the unfaithful church when they see abomination fo desolation standing therein (Church).

Revelation 18:4-5 KJV

• And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
• For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Matthew 24:15-17 KJV

• When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
• Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Please note that the housetop is outside of the house (Church), it is not in the house. Used in the context of Matthew 24 it is illustrating a preaching platform outside the Church, with the preacher being commanded not to go back inside the house to get anything. This is not speculation, this truth is made abundantly clear by the other books of the Bible that reference this prophecy, and indeed by the very context of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:17

• ""Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: "

In other words, God warns His servants that when they flee from this abomination in the congregation, they are not to go back into the house (Church) to get anything, for there is nothing there that is worth their lives. For example, the works and possessions in this house are now rendered worthless and the habitation thereof dangerous. They will find no bread (the Word of God) there, no clothing (the righteousness of Christ) there, no gold (the preciousness of Christ) there, and no shelter from the storm (the tabernacle of Christ) there. All these things that Christians possessed "in the house" are now gone, and they are not to look back, as Lot's wife looked back. Just like when no man could buy merchandises of Babylon the Great (unfaithful church) anymore! There is Abominations in the Church have caused it to fall and become a desert (desolation). So they are not to go down into the house to take anything out of it. They preach from the housetops. It may help to look at the next verse, because the very same spiritual picture is painted there where God says:

Matthew 24:18

• "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

This is the very same warning to those who dwelled on the housetops not to go back in the house, but God is now using the metaphor of those in the field. Those who were laboring in the field symbolize those in the world (or outside the Church -Matthew 13:38). These are those Christians who are not in the house (Church), but who have come out into the wilderness of the world to sow seed or preach the gospel. They are who are going out on the missionary. They are not to try to go back into their house (church) to get clothing. There is no clothing there that can protect anyone at this time. For the clothing, which is the righteousness of Christ, has departed it. Why? Because it is a time of judgment that God has decreed upon His congregation before He returns! This has NOTHING to do with AD 70, it concerns the spiritual nature of the Church at this time, right prior to Second Coming, and WHY believers should stay away from it to avoid partaking of church's plagues, spiritually speaking! "Woesever readeth, let him understand!" It is spiritually discerned!

Kevin Snow said:

I'll give you that except for the fact that the Holy Spirit is NEVER "out of the way" or put "out of the way." This is actually prophecy of the time that the prince of the covenant is "cut off and shall have nothing." Only when he is out of the way will the man of lawlessness be revealed.

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The person who is letting things happen and to what extent is - Jesus. He has his reasons.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The "he" be taken out of the way - is body of Jesus ( the Christ), the church. It is talking about the rapture of the church; and sometime, not given how long, after that, the person goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

Douggg said:

The person who is letting things happen and to what extent is - Jesus. He has his reasons.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The "he" be taken out of the way - is body of Jesus ( the Christ), the church. It is talking about the rapture of the church; and sometime, not given how long, after that, the person goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

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That is a false interpretation.

God was not talking about taking his body of Christ out of the Earth. Please read the context carefully!

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 KJV

God said in verse seven that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst). Because of Satan's being bound in this New Testament millennial reign of Christ, so that the church could be built with people being freed from spiritual bondage through the testimony of the church. Because of this restraint of Satan MANY (not everyone on earth) are translated from the power of darkness to the Kingdom of God. The point is, when the time comes, after God has finished sealing all of His people and the fulness of Gentiles be coming in, Satan will be loosed as God takes His hand of restraint out of the midst of the Church. This is what this verse is declaring. Iniquity was still at work while Satan was bound during the church age, and yet was restrained until He who retrains it will be taken out of the midst. Please read verse 8 again:


When the time comes, and Christ is taken out of the midst (translated way in the KJV) of the Church, then will this iniquity or lawlessness of Satan shall be REVEALED, which is the abomination of desolation itself! Only the Elect can "see" what it is and REALIZED that God has departed from a church because it is a time of His judgment upon His church. This is when the real time of trouble starts!

The context after all 'is' (verse 1-3)the return of the Lord when we shall gather to meet Him, and the two things which must happen first. There will be no "pre-tribulation rapture". Apostasy must take place in the church to the point that the lawlessness of Satan shall be revealed. What is lawlessness of Satan? It is the false doctrines of his false prophets and christs bringing into church. For example, feel-good gospel, prosperity gospel, no judgment gospel, tolerate homosexuality and gender identity, women in position, divorce and remarriage, etc. etc. These are the inquities that must take place first to the point where Satan can rule in God's congregation THROUGH the false prophets and christs today!

God declares that He will consume this evil with the Spirit of His Mouth (The Word of God) and shall destroy it with the brightness [epiphaneia] of His coming. That Greek word [epiphaneia] means his notable or conspicuous appearing or manifestation. Clearly, when the iniquity is loosed the lawless man in the spirit of antichrist won't be destroyed until Christ's second coming. And it will be a notable manifestation of Christ, not secret.

The rapture will only happen on the last day when Christ returns....AFTER the revealation of man of sin in the church. Therefore, the "taken out of the midst" has nothing to do with the rapture of the church as you believe, dougg!

Kevin Snow said:

You know this is a lot easier than you are making it. The church is a body of believers. It isn't a "he". They are describing the thing exactly as it is. The "he" means it's a person. It's just that simple.

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You have totally missed who the "HE" is referring to...........

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth (CHURCH) that he(Anti-Christ) might be revealed in his time. (Speaking of the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin from VERSE 3.

WHAT WITHHOLDETH or stops from coming forth is the Church who is the vessel the Holy Spirit works through. The Church STOPS the HE from coming forth.

Revealing Times said:

You have totally missed who the "HE" is referring to...........

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth (CHURCH) that he(Anti-Christ) might be revealed in his time. (Speaking of the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin from VERSE 3.

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First...the iniquity was already at work at the time of the writing of this epistle, and yet it was being restrained. This is one of those rare instances where the "old english" language of the King James Bible may be a little confusing. That word translated 'letteth' is an old English word which simply means restrains. In the literal Greek it is [katecho], meaning to hold down, and by implication to prevent one from doing something. For example, if I were to grab someone and hold them down so that they couldn't attack someone, I would be restraining them. That is how this word is used here. To be Held Down or restrained from doing something.

The mystery was that Satan was going to deceive the masses of the Churches into lawlessness. The Greek word iniquity [anomia] literally means, lawlessness or transgression of God's laws. The Church deceived will be allowed to act outside of God's law without restraint. And this secret or mystery is revealed to the saints as rebellion against the laws of God by man. In a word, 'lawlessness.' This mystery of Iniquity was already at work when 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 was written, but was restrained so that the Church could be built. There are those Theologians who like to argue that, "If Satan was bound at the cross, why is there so much evil in the world," or who actually mock declaring that, "He must not have been bound to tightly, because he is sure loose in the world today." I can understand this sentiment in light of the world, but not in the 'light' of the Scripture. First of all, this is what this verse is saying, not something man merely claims that it says. It says Yes, iniquity was already at work in the world even then, and yet it declares it nevertheless was being restrained, and would continue to be restrained until the time when he who restrains it was removed from the midst. God Said that. And for any Christian to mock or deny that is tank foolishness on his part.

We didn't say iniquity was working and yet was restrained, God said that. So all these Theologians who want to argue semantics are arguing with God. How can iniquity be held down if it's up and working in the world? Because 'God Defines Terms,' not man! It's not defined by Webster's dictionary of what is bound, restrained, or held down, but God's Word. The fact is, Satan was bound/restrained for a specific reason. He was not so that there would be no more evil in the world, he was not restrained so that the Church would never be persecuted, and he was not held in check so there would be a golden age of purity. He was (as we've clearly seen) bound so that he could not go forth deceiving the nations to gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints until after Christ's Church was built. That is why he was bound. Satan has no defense against Christ's onslaught at his gates. When Christ assaults the gates of Satan's Kingdom, He builds His Church with the spoils thereof.

Luke 11:21-22

• "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
• But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Matthew 16:18

• "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Christ assaults satan's gates to build His Church, spoiling his kingdom and translating those He chooses from that prison house of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord. Nothing will prevent the Church from being built, and that is why Satan was bound. But when the time nears for Christ's return (meaning the Church is complete or nearly complete) then Satan will be loosed, and will deceive again and cause a "great Apostasy" and Tribulation in the world. But only for a little season, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God (1st Peter 4:127). Iniquity is restrained of God, until Christ is removed out of the midst of the temple, the light of the world darkened.

Many have hypothesized about what really restrains sin. Church tradition once held that it was restrained by the law of the Roman Empire. But that didn't last long because after Roman law was long gone, the Church prospered and grew even more. Others theorized that it was the gospel itself being witnessed which restrained sin. This is a much more biblical interpretation, but still does not really get down to the root, or efficacy of the restraint. i.e., sin is not restrained by words (scripture), but by the power of the Word (which is the Spirit).

Again, that which restrains iniquity is referred to as that which restrains (verse 6), and as he which restrains (verse 7). This would seem to indicate a power involving personal agency. Moreover, we 'know most assuredly' that the only true restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we have our answer. The Holy Spirit is this restrainer of iniquity of which Paul writes, and which has been doing it's job for 2000 years since this epistle was penned.

He who is in the midst of the Church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the Churches, then the Spirit is no longer there. Then will the spirit of Satan be loosed to take it's place as the substitute, or anti-Christ. This is the time when many false authorities or pseudo Christs' arise because of lack of restraint. In other words, these were already here in the world, but were being restrained. In fact, when we look carefully at 2nd Thessalonians verse 7, it is not unlike what we read of Anti-Christ in 1st John:

1st John 4:3

• "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it Should Come; and Even Now Already is it in the world."

Is this evil spirit of Anti-Christ Coming? Indeed it is. And yet God said that this spirit was already there in the world even then. It's very easy for some Theologians to mock and say how can Satan be bound when he's loose in the world, or how can Satan be destroyed (made idle down) when he goes about as a roaring lion in the world, but this mocking shows a unbridled ignorance of scriptures. And this verse declaring of the spirit of Antichrist (Satan, the spirit against or opposed to Christ) even then was already in the world, and yet was also coming, illustrates this principle very clearly. Because he was at the time, simply "held Down" that in the future he would be released to come in power which he didn't have the authority to do then. There are Christians who will tell you that the Anti Christ must come. They are absolutely right. But then they tell you it is a single man, and they are totally wrong. No man was already in the world when these passages were written, and will also be in the world when the end comes. This is obviously no single man. It is the spirit being Satan, working his deceivings through man. Not through 'a man,' but through mankind. Only Satan could exist from the time of John, to the time of the second coming. And even though some Theologians try to split hairs in saying, "there are many antichrists but these are the spirit of AntiChrist, not Antichrist. But careful examination of scriptures shows that they are grasping at straws. We read unambiguously that the antichrist was already there at that time also.

2nd John 1:7

• "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a DECEIVER and an ANTICHRIST."

This doesn't say The spirit of Antichrist, or Thee antichrist, it says an "antichrist". Obviously there are many, and it's not just one man as is popularly theorized. So then, if we have an antichrist at the time of John, and will come to power near the end, then this theory that this is a single man cannot be Biblically validated nor substantiated. Let me say with all due respect to those who believe such things, It can "nowhere" be shown in the scriptures that the Antichrist is one single man who manifests himself near the end. If we let the Bible (and not our imaginations and teachers) "define" what Antichrist is, then we will have no problem understanding scripture, nor God's interpretation. Satan is the Antichrist. The Problem comes in when people ignore how the Word of God defines the spirit antichrist, and accept what some teachers say he is. That is a old and yet continuing mistake in the Church. God defines terms, not preachers, horror movies, tradition or webster's dictionary. The Word of God says a deceiver who confesses not that Jesus is the Christ, is an AntiChrist. And that is because he has the spirit of Satan.

Many make the exact same error in defining the man of sin (lawlessness) as they think he also is a single man, thee Antichrist. But the man of sin is an Antichrist, not "thee" Antichrist. He was here at the time of the writing of scripture, and he will/and has come in our day. Only the spirit of Satan qualifies as both. Antichrist was to come, and yet scripture also said it was already in the world at that time of John. That's exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 means when it says the iniquity was already at work, yet was restrained to be revealed at a future time. Both verses say the same thing. There will come a time when the spirit of Satan will be loosed and iniquity will increase and abound. It is a time of great deceiving when the spirit Satan is loosed. There is no one lawless man coming, but many will be a man of sin or lawlessness. And this man of lawlessness will rule in the Holy Temple in his own authority (as if he is God) and cause it's downfall. These evil men who don't follow the laws of God all have one thing in common. They all are sons of the Devil with the spirit of Satan in them. They are son of Perdition, all in servitude to Satan.

Why is it that the Great Tribulation period could not come upon the world until near the end of Time? What was preventing it? The answer is that it was God of course. This great tribulation and iniquity (matthew 24) has been prevented from happening for nearly 2000 years because Satan was bound as God builds His Church. Satan could not muster his armies from the all the nations to assault the camp of the Saints in a way that would bring this great tribulation (greater than this world has ever seen, nor will see thereafter). Are we to think that Satan didn't want to bring this iniquity and Great tribulation 1000 years ago? 500 year ago? 100 years ago? Surely he does because he is the father of lies and deception, the epitome of Evil. But he was obviously bound from being able to do so by God. He cannot bring it until he is loosed.

TribulationSigns said:

God said in verse seven that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst).

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Since the mystery of iniquity was at work even back then - "restrained" in this case means "limited".

The question also becomes what is the mystery of iniquity? It is the denial that Jesus is the Christ.

TS, you are missing the cumulative point of 1Thessalonians4, 1Thessalonians5, 2Thessalonians2. And that is the church is going to be raptured out of the world before the Day of the Lord begins when the person goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

Kevin Snow said:

Forget the "el tav" man. Look you listed some of the things he will do and you listed some things that he will not do. Then you ask me "do you find this unlawlful"?

It is NOT unlawful to add 3, 7, or 10 laws, nay even thousands. As I showed by the scripture.

He does NOT unite Israel and Judah. That is prophesied of the prince of the covenant. He is the one who unites Israel and Judah. How can you say what you are saying and mix the good things of God with such an evil man?

The el tav is NOT the mark of the beast.

So the only thing you got right is that he stops people from buying or selling without the mark and he condemns those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Yahshua, who is the son of God and reigns forever amen.

So your picture is VERY wrong. Please. Remove the scale from your eyes and that scale is the lack of the understanding of who the prince of the covenant is and what HE does. You would actually make the prince of the covenant out to be the antichrist!

Click to expand...

Kevin you said a type of Elijah comes and unites Israel and Judah. And builds the temple ....will he anoint a son of David on the throne? Before antichrist comes?

I just trying to understand your chronology of Daniel 9....

490 years from the
Commandment to rebuild Jerusalem by elijah?
49 years to messiah the prince?
483 years to the antichrist 7 year covenant?