2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

[Douggg]

That's your basis! That's like saying "because he has a covenant for 7 years he is the king of Israel, because of the shmita" WOW

Confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13 for the 7 years cycle and because he will be (illegimate) the King of Israel at the time...it is what the leader is supposed to do.

And you are probably not aware, but the Jews interpret the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 not as "new", but a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant. Thus, reinforcing their belief that the person is the messiah.

 

[Douggg]

The time that the antichrist has is ONLY the time he is allowed by God to do what he does and it is ONLY for the purpose of showing that they all are worthless in believing what is false and knowing that it is false.

This time has nothing to do with Israel. Trust me, he is not an Israeli figure and he does not follow the law. He is the man of lawlessness. You just don't understand what that means.

And I don't care what the Jews think. They've been wrong before. Look at how wrong they were about the time of their visitation.

You are misapplying the term Antichrist for the person when he is in other different roles, the revealed man of sin, the little horn, the beast.

Man of lawlessness - is it one of the laws to worship only God under the ten commandments given at Mt. Sinai? In Daniel 8:12-13, the little horn person at some point commits the transgression of desolation - transgresses the covenant - which is what he will do in 2Thessalonians2:4 as his last act as being the King of Israel, thought to be messiah..

 

[Chinchilla]

The antichrist is the man of LAWLESSNESS. He has NOTHING to do with ANY covenant. He will NOT be returning to the old covenant by any stretch of the imagination. Read my previous post. He has nothing to do with the scriptures in his own right.

It;s said that he wants to change the law , so he will follow his own law but compared to God's law it's lawlessness . He actually make a law to stop the fight - confirming the covenant for 7 years breaking it in middle of it .

 

[dfw69]

It;s said that he wants to change the law , so he will follow his own law but compared to God's law it's lawlessness . He actually make a law to stop the fight - confirming the covenant for 7 years breaking it in middle of it .

I believe the Anti Christ will seek to unite the 10 gentile kingdoms of Israel and Judah...into one kingdom...in the future...he will then claim to be God ...el tav...the strength of the covenant....the el tav will be his mark ...joining the 2 sticks ....he will also add 3 laws to the 613 commandments ...making himself the man of sin ...son of perdition.....he will also make an image of himself ...and place it in the temple...causing the entire nation to worship the image ....all who receive the el tav ...his name...his mark on the earth ..and his 616 commandments....will be condemned ...

 

[Chinchilla]

I believe the Anti Christ will seek to unite the 10 gentile kingdoms of Israel and Judah...into one kingdom...in the future...he will then claim to be God ...el tav...the strength of the covenant....the el tav will be his mark ...joining the 2 sticks ....he will also add 3 laws to the 613 commandments ...making himself the man of sin ...son of perdition.....he will also make an image of himself ...and place it in the temple...causing the entire nation to worship the image ....all who receive the el tav ...his name...his mark on the earth ..and his 616 commandments....will be condemned ...

Where can I find the 616 commandments ?

 

[Kevin Snow]

It;s said that he wants to change the law , so he will follow his own law but compared to God's law it's lawlessness . He actually make a law to stop the fight - confirming the covenant for 7 years breaking it in middle of it .

I believe the Anti Christ will seek to unite the 10 gentile kingdoms of Israel and Judah...into one kingdom...in the future...he will then claim to be God ...el tav...the strength of the covenant....the el tav will be his mark ...joining the 2 sticks ....he will also add 3 laws to the 613 commandments ...making himself the man of sin ...son of perdition.....he will also make an image of himself ...and place it in the temple...causing the entire nation to worship the image ....all who receive the el tav ...his name...his mark on the earth ..and his 616 commandments....will be condemned ...

Guys these ideas are only conjectures at this point. And they all come from the belief that the antichrist is actually affiliated with Israel! He is NEVER affiliated with Israel or its law. He does NOT unite the 10 kingdoms at all. He simply rises up in the midst of them. The 10 kings must be united BEFORE he puts down 3 of them, obviously.

Keep it simple and don't get caught up in baseless conjecturing but stick closely to the actual picture displayed in Daniel and Revelations. All other law has nothing to do with the antichrist! It has to do with the glory and character of God! Stop proving your own belief through imagining what he will do. He will do none of those things.

 

[Kevin Snow]

Enough talking about the antichrist. He is worthless. Rather I will point out prophecy that is to be fulfilled by the prince of the covenant. You can start there and begin to understand the picture of the end times more clearly.

Isaiah 28

The entire chapter is speaking of the prince of the covenant and what he has to go through to get the people disciplined under Yahshua. It describes the terror of the message to the Israelites for not having accepted Yahshua.

He is the one who is strong and he is marked by having strength.

 

[dfw69]

Where can I find the 616 commandments ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

 

[dfw69]

Guys these ideas are only conjectures at this point. And they all come from the belief that the antichrist is actually affiliated with Israel! He is NEVER affiliated with Israel or its law. He does NOT unite the 10 kingdoms at all. He simply rises up in the midst of them. The 10 kings must be united BEFORE he puts down 3 of them, obviously.

Keep it simple and don't get caught up in baseless conjecturing but stick closely to the actual picture displayed in Daniel and Revelations. All other law has nothing to do with the antichrist! It has to do with the glory and character of God! Stop proving your own belief through imagining what he will do. He will do none of those things.

I don't expect the rise of the final antichrist in our lifetime...I expect the rise of Judaism and the belief that yahshua is not the messiah ....and all who believe yahshua is not the messiah is an Anti Christ spirit ....1 john 2:22....let God be true and every man a liar who denies his son is the messiah....and the relationship between the father and the son

 

[Kevin Snow]

Where can I find the 616 commandments ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

The idea of adding to the number of laws in no way constitutes lawlessness. For it says in the scriptures:

Were I to write for him my laws by the ten thousands, they would be regarded as a strange thing. ~Hosea 8:12

And this principle stands clearly for it says elsewhere:

I have seen a limit to all perfection, but your commandment is exceedingly broad. ~Psalms 119:96

His commandment which he gave Yahshua was simply "eternal life." Do you understand how broad that actually is? Adding laws is not unscriptural. It is actually necessary to understand the will of God!

So you are sorely mistaken about the identity of the antichrist. You are wrong about what he really does.

Now when it says in Revelations whoever adds or takes away from this book, it is referring to Revelations alone. For the book of Revelations was written by itself before there was any canon or bounded collection of scriptures. So again, keep things in context when it comes to scripture. Lastly, the canon is not closed. For with scripture there is nothing in scripture that closes the canon. In fact, through these previous scriptures above there is ample evidence that his word goes on forever.

 

[dfw69]

The idea of adding to the number of laws in no way constitutes lawlessness. For it says in the scriptures:

Were I to write for him my laws by the ten thousands, they would be regarded as a strange thing. ~Hosea 8:12

And this principle stands clearly for it says elsewhere:

I have seen a limit to all perfection, but your commandment is exceedingly broad. ~Psalms 119:96

His commandment which he gave Yahshua was simply "eternal life." Do you understand how broad that actually is? Adding laws is not unscriptural. It is actually necessary to understand the will of God!

So you are sorely mistaken about the identity of the antichrist. You are wrong about what he really does.

Now when it says in Revelations whoever adds or takes away from this book, it is referring to Revelations alone. For the book of Revelations was written by itself before there was any canon or bounded collection of scriptures. So again, keep things in context when it comes to scripture. Lastly, the canon is not closed. For with scripture there is nothing in scripture that closes the canon. In fact, through these previous scriptures above there is ample evidence that his word goes on forever.

Ok you disagree but entertain the idea with me for a moment....

If in the distant future....a man comes claiming to be el tav....and unites Israel and Judah and sits in the temple claiming to be el tav....and adds 3 new laws to the 613 commandments...one being to worship his image ....which is set up in the temple....and commands no man bye or sell...unless he shows allegence to his accomplishments by receiving his el tav (mark) in the right hand or forehead...and he goes against the father and son theology. . .and condemns those who keep the commandments of god and have the testimony that Jesus is the son of god the true el tav ,the true messiah ....you actually find this lawful?

 

[Kevin Snow]

Ok you disagree but entertain the idea with me for a moment....

If in the distant future....a man comes claiming to be el tav....and unites Israel and Judah and sits in the temple claiming to be el tav....and adds 3 new laws to the 613 commandments...one being to worship his image ....which is set up in the temple....and commands no man bye or sell...unless he shows allegence to his accomplishments by receiving his el tav (mark) in the right hand or forehead...and he goes against the father and son theology. . .and condemns those who keep the commandments of god and have the testimony that Jesus is the son of god the true el tav ,the true messiah ....you actually find this unlawful?

Forget the "el tav" man. Look you listed some of the things he will do and you listed some things that he will not do. Then you ask me "do you find this unlawlful"?

It is NOT unlawful to add 3, 7, or 10 laws, nay even thousands. As I showed by the scripture.

He does NOT unite Israel and Judah. That is prophesied of the prince of the covenant. He is the one who unites Israel and Judah. How can you say what you are saying and mix the good things of God with such an evil man?

The el tav is NOT the mark of the beast.

So the only thing you got right is that he stops people from buying or selling without the mark and he condemns those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Yahshua, who is the son of God and reigns forever amen.

So your picture is VERY wrong. Please. Remove the scale from your eyes and that scale is the lack of the understanding of who the prince of the covenant is and what HE does. You would actually make the prince of the covenant out to be the antichrist!

 

[dfw69]

Forget the "el tav" man. Look you listed some of the things he will do and you listed some things that he will not do. Then you ask me "do you find this unlawlful"?

It is NOT unlawful to add 3, 7, or 10 laws, nay even thousands. As I showed by the scripture.

He does NOT unite Israel and Judah. That is prophesied of the prince of the covenant. He is the one who unites Israel and Judah. How can you say what you are saying and mix the good things of God with such an evil man?

The el tav is NOT the mark of the beast.

So the only thing you got right is that he stops people from buying or selling without the mark and he condemns those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Yahshua, who is the son of God and reigns forever amen.

So your picture is VERY wrong. Please. Remove the scale from your eyes and that scale is the lack of the understanding of who the prince of the covenant is and what HE does. You would actually make the prince of the covenant out to be the antichrist!

I believe there will be an imposter before the real deal Kevin

If the Prince of the covenant is as you say ....the imposter come first

 

[Kevin Snow]

I believe there will be an imposter before the real deal Kevin

If the Prince of the covenant is as you say ....the imposter come first

No no. Read Daniel 9 again. It clearly says that the prince of the covenant comes to rebuild the third temple and that is way before the coming of the antichrist.

There will actually be peace and prosperity and a revealing of the word of God to the earth, THEN there will be the falling away. God makes it utterly clear what is the truth and gives all people the chance to understand that he is God. But the people grow restless and throw his yoke from off them and turn to lawlessness. The kind which has never been on this earth.

 

[jgr]

No no. Read Daniel 9 again. It clearly says that the prince of the covenant comes to rebuild the third temple and that is way before the coming of the antichrist.

There will actually be peace and prosperity and a revealing of the word of God to the earth, THEN there will be the falling away. God makes it utterly clear what is the truth and gives all people the chance to understand that he is God. But the people grow restless and throw his yoke from off them and turn to lawlessness. The kind which has never been on this earth.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

It is Messiah.

 

[Kevin Snow]

There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

It is Messiah.

Nope. The messiah could not possibly fulfill the 70 weeks. It is the continuity of the scripture that you are disregarding. When it talks about the antichrist, it talks about it happening right after the 62 week period. This means that the antichrist would have had to appeared already. The antichrist has not appeared yet so this scripture is specifically an end times passage through and through. From the beginning to the end it is talking about the end times and not the coming of Yahshua.

There are many anointed ones in the bible. The prince of the covenant is certainly anointed but it is not Yahshua.

 

[jgr]

Nope. The messiah could not possibly fulfill the 70 weeks. It is the continuity of the scripture that you are disregarding. When it talks about the antichrist, it talks about it happening right after the 62 week period. This means that the antichrist would have had to appeared already. The antichrist has not appeared yet so this scripture is specifically an end times passage through and through. From the beginning to the end it is talking about the end times and not the coming of Yahshua.

There are many anointed ones in the bible. The prince of the covenant is certainly anointed but it is not Yahshua.

Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage. Christ -- Messiah the Prince -- confirmed the New Covenant in His Blood (Matthew 26:28).

The historical true Church recognized Christ as the theme of the passage.

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was l built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father.

In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

The Stromata, or Miscellanies
Book I Chapter XXI

 

[Kevin Snow]

Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage. Christ -- Messiah the Prince -- confirmed the New Covenant in His Blood (Matthew 26:28).

The historical true Church recognized Christ as the theme of the passage.

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was l built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father.

In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

The Stromata, or Miscellanies
Book I Chapter XXI

They're wrong. For the reason I spoke previously.

Also, Nero is NOT the antichrist by any stretch of the imagination. He did not take away sacrifices. He destroyed the entire temple. The antichrist destroys only the courts.

Do you understand the problem of the time in this passage? It's logically impossible.

 

[jgr]

They're wrong. For the reason I spoke previously.

Also, Nero is NOT the antichrist by any stretch of the imagination. He did not take away sacrifices. He destroyed the entire temple. The antichrist destroys only the courts.

Do you understand the problem of the time in this passage? It's logically impossible.

They're right. Affirmed by 1800 years of Church history.

Nero or any other antichrist is absent from the passage.

 

[Blade]

Not go deep or get lost.. I don't see this as "CHURCH" or believers falling away. Its written in other versions "great rebellion against God". Yes we do see this but not by believers. Just a few years ago.. seen in one day MILLIONS come to Christ..in one day. Its WOW.. so many like never before are coming to Christ.

Gonna stop now.. well I am reading ALLOT of speculation. Things being said as fact/truh ..not "as I read it or understand, what I think it means". They are saying it as fact..but its NOT written.