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2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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Gr8Grace

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If following Jesus was so easy you would not fight against it so.
Is this from your heart flowing with love? Nice try though.

This isn't about arguing whether or not to follow The Lord.

This is about 2 diametrically opposed ways of following The Lord. Remember,"I in you and you in Me?" Being a part of His body?

Living the Christian way of life is being a part of His body. Not 500 yards behind, out of breath, trying our best to catch up.

If speaking from the heart and letting love flow in all you deeds, you would not bite me so.
I know what the heart is. And I know what love is.

Enlighten us with your definitions.


This is how Jesus described His ministry

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
I know the specific mandates He was referring to. I know how to remain in His love.
Care to share the specifics?

What many miss is the how and why.
And here is your perfect opportunity to give us the specifics.

Only at the end do we see our true selves, and whether we have remained true to our beliefs and commitment.
Nonsense.
 
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Timothy416

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You learn much through lifes experiences. I have found, the people closest to God are those who do not demand of others what they do not demand of themselves, for Jesus called that hypocrisy. They do not keep insisting others reach a certain standard to prove their love and holiness for God. Instead, they just gently encourage them when they feel low, they do not make them feel any worse than they already feel for their shortcomings. They just show them love. And when you come across such Godly Christians who do this, you see the results in the people they are encouraging.
I have met many who have liked to infer others need to attain to the holy state they have reached, love is always the casualty of this approach in their lives.
It is far better to be someone who beats your fists on your chest and say: 'God be merciful to me a sinner' than to look at others and criticise them in thought or word for not being where you perceive they must be.
In truth, you would not need to tell any truly born again Christian how to live their life, if you understand the new covenant, for they would already know, and they would be only too painfully aware of their shortcomings, for how God wants them to live is within them, it is part of who they now are.
Jesus said: The yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy(Luke12:1) Why?
Because they did not practice what they preached/demanded of others(Matt23:3)
 
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Gr8Grace

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Dear brothers and sisters in Christ

When people reject Gods word that we bring with an open heart and in love, they are rejecting the very God we serve.

So take heart, because in doing this they declare they do not know Him
John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Both underlined phrases are double negatives in the original language. Emphasizing the FACT that believer's will never, not ever perish and will not, absolutely will not come into judgement.

Is it possible for a believer to perish and come into judgement?
 
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LightLoveHope

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Nonsense.

I like this phrase. It speaks both of arrogance and ignorance.

Peter said to Jesus
I will lay down my life for you John 13:37
Jesus replies
I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers
Luke 22:32

Peters response in the end demonstrated his faith.
So sad was he that he said things so quickly but was unable to stand for Jesus in His hour of need, tradition says he was crucified upside down.

It is easy to say anything that does not cost you anything.
Many fall away when testing comes.

They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
Luke 8:13

So those who fall away, how true was their faith, and how real their change.

Many talk like eternity and rising from the dead is a small thing, and everyone who can be will be included. Scripture declares the opposite, and we are so far from God, it is hard for us and impossible to find our way.

So do all one can to listen and follow after Jesus, and then you will find life. If eternity was so easy Jesus would not have gone to the cross and spent 3 years with the disciples showing them the way of the Kingdom.

Just think, 3 years with Jesus, and they still found it hard and often were found wanting and troubled. But those of easy believism will say, just believe and rest in this, there is nothing else. Just the fact the bible is over 2,000 years long and full of different people and all their stories, shows this walk is very much more complicated and eternity is not something to take lightly. Those who deny Jesus's words speak without care or respect.
 
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Gr8Grace

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I like this phrase. It speaks both of arrogance and ignorance.
Nonsense.

LightLoveHope said:
Only at the end do we see our true selves, and whether we have remained true to our beliefs and commitment.
~~~~~~~
Nonsense.

You know what having character and integrity means? It being honest with ourselves, figuring out what is right and true and remaining in those values.......Right NOW.

So yeah, it's nonsense if one has character and integrity.
 
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Gr8Grace

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I like this phrase.
Did you miss the key point made pertaining to our discussion?



This is how Jesus described His ministry

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
https://www.christianforums.com/bible/john/15:10/
I know the specific mandates He was referring to. I know how to remain in His love.
Care to share the specifics?

What many miss is the how and why.
And here is your perfect opportunity to give us the specifics.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Dear brothers and sisters in Christ

When people reject Gods word that we bring with an open heart and in love, they are rejecting the very God we serve.
I have been trying to point that out to you over and over.

So take heart, because in doing this they declare they do not know Him
Those who don't believe what He says truly don't really know Him.

He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me
Luke 10:16
Yes, pretty clear. By not believing what Jesus says about recipients of eternal life never perishing, do not listen to Him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness
2 Tim 2:19
How about this: everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST believe what He says about recipients of eternal life never perishing, from John 10:28.
 
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LightLoveHope

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How about this: everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST believe what He says about recipients of eternal life never perishing, from John 10:28.

Unfortunately as I point out, the Lord says those who believe in Him will never perish.
You add that He means those who "believe" (without specifics) even for a milli second are given entry into life eternal, without conditions or the ability to lose such a privelege or be lost.

No where is this belief part of salvation, security, as a condition of salvation, and by itself, once it is a condition of salvation, denies itself that there are no conditions.

Jesus said to the Father that He had lost no one except the son of pedition.
In the seed and sower parable, people are lost. In Hebrews people come to faith and then fall away. Paul described believers who fall into sin and follow satan, false teachers arise though they appeared part of the body, show themselves not to have been.

And in the same spirit, to argue with me as not being saved because I do not hold security in Christ the way you do, suggests you are actually a false teacher attempting to deny the work Christ has done in my life.

If we listen to Jesus and hear all His words, we find apparent contradictions until we start to see the whole. God who created the universe with its balances, nuances, forces one way and another, who gave us example after example of people finding Him and still having struggles and trials, it is obvious this is not simple. So I thank you, for bearing with me, and teaching me, I have a long way to go, and the Lord uses everything.

We are called to be like Jesus, and Jesus debated everything with everyone, and knew the answers to give. So let us praise His name and lift Him high, because He is worthy, worthy

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Rev 5:12-13

Thankyou Jesus that you brought us the light of life, to shine in our hearts, to be a beacon in the darkness, to know your presence and the spread you word, that there is forgiveness for our sins, and a new life, a new creation within where we can become children of the living God, loving and caring for those we meet and share our daily lives with, Amen.
 
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Timothy416

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In the seed and sower parable, people are lost.
The parable of the sower is a good point to make in this regard. You are correct, in the second example people made a shallow commitment but when persecution came they walked away. So they must have officially been in a saved state in the first place, for they set out on the path
However, in the third example, people kept getting sidetracked from the path by world things. However, Jesus did not say they walked away or lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature, for you mature by practising right from wrong.
So one group obviously did not have eternal security, the other group did
 
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LightLoveHope

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LightLoveHope said:
Only at the end do we see our true selves, and whether we have remained true to our beliefs and commitment.
~~~~~~~
Nonsense.

Maybe at the end of all things I will be able to ask you this question, except by then it will not be relevant, because what will have been will have taken place, and the point of no return will have been reached.

When all is revealed, our hearts cannot be renewed and brought to life. We are either in Him, in love and openness, cleansed and purified or lost and broken, irredeemable, doomed to the lake of fire and destruction.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Luke 13:28

Recently something happened that hurt me deeply. It was a denial of my walk in some way and I could do nothing about it. Things changed when I looked to Jesus and continued in the path He has laid before me.

It will be like this on that day. Nothing can be done except to walk in the path the Lord has laid for us, and people will just fall apart who do not know Him. Woe to those who do not know His life and love and redemption. Nothing will make sense to them just a contradiction and failure summed up in weeping and gnashing of teeth. A sad sad day for those who came so close, yet closed the door to the living God and His word.
 
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LightLoveHope

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I see this interpretation, but I also see its failure. There are many things we can compromise on, and many things we can excuse, saying God knows our hearts but we are human and flawed after all.

Now that I see Christ in my heart and know the touch of His Spirit in who I am, it is sin that creates these excuses and distortions and leads us astray. The danger is always we lose our faith, and lose the very life we have in Him, but many want to say, do not be too hard of these folk, God still loves them and will against their will force them into the Kingdom. It is here at this point I realise they are deluded and just into wickedness and hypocrisy. And here the Lords warning becomes true

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

Hypocrisy is the death of faith. Claiming to know Jesus while not following love, is the enemy of His word. I have sadly met too many who say they know Jesus yet have a closed heart and cannot love others as they love themselves. They barely love or know themselves so it is impossible for them to love others. All they do everyday is condemn themselves for their failures and get angry at others for irrelevant things, and do not know how to get out of this prison. Little wonder their faith is so weak and empty.
 
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Timothy416

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Normally, I never get involved on discussions about osas/eternal security, for people have very polarised views, and quote their pet scriptures to support their differing views, and this anyone can do. For I freely admit, there are verses in scripture that support eternal security and those that appear not to. The best thing to do, is to try and come to an understanding that does not shut out the scriptures that disagree with ones own personal point of view. Jesus gives us an example of those who can lose the salvation they started out with. Those who made a shallow commitment. They may have made that commitment due to many factors. A young person at a church for example may have friends there that are all Christians, therefore they make a commitment as they do not want to feel left out. A shallow commitment made, but as you yourself testify to, shallow commitments can bring one into a saved state, for you used that example in the parable of the sower to support your view people can lose their salvation.
But many different people attend church, as I am sure you know. And many make a deep and personal commitment to Christ. But in the real world, and away from 'pat theology' just because people make a deep commitment does not mean they will not stray. Humans are not pre programmed robots. But here's the thing, when those who have made this deep commitment stray, they are burdened deeply by it. They can have no happiness or peace when they do not live as God wants them to live, and they have no rest and no peace until they come before their Father in Heaven and repent of their folly. The fact they feel so bad about their imperfections proves the law is written in their minds and placed on their hearts by the Holy Spirit. Paul said:
If we are faithless he remains faithful for he cannot disown himself 2Tim2:12
This must refer to those I have just described. I know this would be hard for you to accept, but you must read the bible as a cohesive whole, not just cherry pick the scriptures you want to cherry pick to support your particular view. You see with my belief, I do not have to cherry pick verses on this subject, I can accept eternal security of some but not others.
 
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LightLoveHope

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I can accept eternal security of some but not others.

Hi Timothy,

I have never been pro or anti security.
I am just pro Jesus.

I have met so many different beliefs among church attendies, I stop listening to the propoganda and want to learn how to love people.

What I have met on forums are those who want you to be something they can box in, and if you are not in their box, you must be evil. One guy took it upon himself to attempt to cause me to sin, to prove he was right and I was wrong, while admitting he was sinning but that was ok, because Jesus wants us just to admit our sinfulness and not worry about its reality because it is already forgiven.

I know what nice church believers mean often in this language. Sin is not first rate 10 commandments stuff, but getting upset, breaking rules etc. Except when I questioned them about this, it turned out to be all 10 commandment stuff, and was just compromise on love and following Jesus.

So why is it if I speak love from the heart, some believers hate this so much?
It has turned out 100% they have closed hearts, and shut Jesus out.

And so I can but conclude, a lot of people think they know Jesus, but have not actually let Him in.

So I have this dilemma. I can but share His love, His life and His freedom.
And I can but just praise the Lord. The light cannot become darkness or the light deny what it is, because by its nature it just shines, Praise God.
 
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Timothy416

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The trouble on these websites is the majority come to teach, so they will never admit to error. And when two people debate, who both consider themselves teachers, and when they disagree it cannot end in harmony can it.
The bible is a big book, and anyone can quote their pet scriptures to support their own particular beliefs, while others quote their pet verses to support their beliefs.
On the internet, I have been told I am a heretic, apostate, in need of psychiatric help, demon possessed and much more. In churches, I have never had anything like that said to me. Don't expect too much from these kind of websites. As I told you, when two people debate, who are in earnest they are both here to teach others what they know, it all so often ends badly
God Bless
 
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Gr8Grace

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Did you miss the key point made pertaining to our discussion?



This is how Jesus described His ministry

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
https://www.christianforums.com/bible/john/15:10/

I know the specific mandates He was referring to. I know how to remain in His love.
Care to share the specifics?

What many miss is the how and why.
And here is your perfect opportunity to give us the specifics.
 
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LightLoveHope

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And here is your perfect opportunity to give us the specifics.

Our teacher is the Holy Spirit, and I know from previous interaction, I have shared my heart, so that is where it must end.

There are two reasons to share, to encourage and to be a witness.
I have done both so I am happy. God bless you, and may you find His love dwelling in your heart as you serve Him and follow His will.

We always make Jesus and the way so mysterious, but it is always humbling ourselves, carrying our cross and listening to Him. But praise the Lord you know this already, as you do not grieve the Holy Spirit and you walk in His ways.

God bless you, and may you find the blessing in Him as I have found blessing in Him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Unfortunately as I point out, the Lord says those who believe in Him will never perish.
What's so unfortunate about what Jesus said?

What IS unfortunate is that you think what Jesus said was unfortunate, and you don't believe what He said.

You add that He means those who "believe" (without specifics) even for a milli second are given entry into life eternal, without conditions or the ability to lose such a privelege or be lost.
If you have evidence that one's faith is measured in milliseconds, hrs, days, wks, months, yrs, or decades in order to guarantee entrance into heaven, please share.

However, I've already shown from Scripture that "whoever believes" actually possesses eternal life. That means, absent any further clarifications, that the very MOMENT one believes, they have eternal life.

John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13 all indicate that eternal life is possessed by those who believe in Christ.

Now, your snide comment about my leaving out "specific" of what 'believing' means, let me clarify for you, so there will be no more error on your part.

Saving faith requires 2 things; an object in which to believe, and a goal or purpose in believing. This is true for faith in general as well. There is no such thing as "having faith in faith".

So, the object of saving faith is the Lord Jesus Christ. These 3 words indicate His Deity (Lord), humanity (Jesus) and Christ (suffering servant who died for humanity's sins). One must believe that He is all 3. Those who believe that He was a good teacher, but deny that He is the Son of God (Deity) do not have saving faith.

Second, the goal or purpose in saving faith is salvation. That means being saved from the lake of fire, where EVERY unbeliever will be cast, along with the devil and all his army of fallen angels.

Any questions?

No where is this belief part of salvation, security, as a condition of salvation, and by itself, once it is a condition of salvation, denies itself that there are no conditions.
Do you honestly not have any idea just how confused this statement is? I have no idea what your pont may be.

Jesus said to the Father that He had lost no one except the son of pedition.
Do you have a point here?

In the seed and sower parable, people are lost.
Only the first soil were unbelievers, per Luke 8:12.

In Hebrews people come to faith and then fall away.
I've already agreed that believers may cease to believe. But there are no Scriptures that say that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. That is your own opinion and it is against Scripture.

Paul described believers who fall into sin and follow satan, false teachers arise though they appeared part of the body, show themselves not to have been.
What you misunderstand is that it was John who made reference to some who had left, because they "were not of us".

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

However, those who have read and are familiar with Acts 15:1-6 understand what John was referring to; believers who held to false doctrines, just as the believers in the Pharisee group did (must be circumcised to be saved).

1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

{I rather think that if you lived at that time frame, you'd have been one of those "some".

And in the same spirit, to argue with me as not being saved because I do not hold security in Christ the way you do, suggests you are actually a false teacher attempting to deny the work Christ has done in my life.
How come you keep claiming that my view is that you are not saved? I've NEVER even suggested that. I have said that you don't believe what Jesus teaches in John 10:28, but that's a far cry from suggesting that you aren't saved.

I have no idea what your understanding of saving faith even is. Until you explain it, I couldn't make such a judgment.

If we listen to Jesus and hear all His words, we find apparent contradictions until we start to see the whole.
To claim that "all of Jesus' words" include "apparent contradictions" is delusional. But it's the only defense you've got, since you know that you don't accept John 10:28 as true.

Teaching you???!! Have you been learning anything about eternal security? No.
 
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Gr8Grace

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What's so unfortunate about what Jesus said?

What IS unfortunate is that you think what Jesus said was unfortunate, and you don't believe what He said.


Babies going to hell. Believers perishing. Unfortunate sayings from the Lord................could you imagine living in this garbage theology FreeGrace?

Like I said, what a PIT we find ourselves in if we are not positive to His word.
 
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