2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

LightLoveHope said:

There is a false belief that Jesus is with those who abandon Him.

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There is a false teaching that says believers may/can/might perish. John 10:28 and many more say, NOT SO.

And what if a believer becomes faithless?
2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.

LightLoveHope said:

Imagine a good friend of mine burns my house down, destroys my family, and then comes to me demanding I help them because once we were friends and agreed we had a future together.
The truth is nothing has been resolved so only a parting of the ways exist.

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This is what I and FreeGrace are talking about Peter.

We will think and operate like this if we don't follow His principles for fellowship.

Matt 18~~21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

We are to forgive and love UNCONDITIONALLY, EVERY TIME. Your theology and 'walking in the spirit' puts stipulations on it.

LightLoveHope said:

Only those who are in Christ, actively, alive in the Holy Spirit have a future. This is the word of God.

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Since I understand you are thinking salvation, Give us the verse for this.

But, since I have experience, this will be ignored and your "feelings book" will carry on.

The great thing about the Lord, is He is gracious, and it is His will alone that matters, it is up to us to find it.

Those who do not know the light will always behave like there is no light, because to their hearts this is true, and unfortunately for sinful man, theirs hearts define their theology. Jesus faced the same issues, because only His sheep listen to His voice. We cannot escape our past, so unless we are born of the Spirit, everything is dull, and only a few verses stand out, the rest is a mystery.

JLB777 said:

Since there is no such thing as eternal security mentioned in the Bible, how about just answering a simple question.


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

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Read Galatians. Start tying some of this together JLB. Because Paul describes your 'gospel' that deceived these brothers, I will highlight that in red.

And I will Highlight, in black and underline 2 things Paul says. "Removed from Christ" and he still calls them 'brothers.'

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

LightLoveHope said:

The great thing about the Lord, is He is gracious, and it is His will alone that matters, it is up to us to find it.

Those who do not know the light will always behave like there is no light, because to their hearts this is true, and unfortunately for sinful man, theirs hearts define their theology. Jesus faced the same issues, because only His sheep listen to His voice. We cannot escape our past, so unless we are born of the Spirit, everything is dull, and only a few verses stand out, the rest is a mystery.

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Like I said, and know.........you will ignore every single point made.

Often miss-quoted verse to justify the idea God will honour salvation to those who has abandoned Him.

Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
2 Tim 2:11-13

If we disown Him, He will disown us. Disowning is losing ones salvation, "I never knew you"
Does the work done in a faithless heart mean God will save them?

I suspect desperate people search for justifying sinners are saved while being lost in sin.
No one is truly arguing for others, so it must be that they themselves feel overwhelmed by
sin and guilt, but rather than pleading their cause with the King, they would rather claim
He saves them despite their unrepentant heart. What did Jesus say about those who wish
to save their lives for themselves?

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:24-26

Losing ones life, is giving up to the world and giving all to Jesus, to follow Him wherever He might lead. It is always a hard place to find, and often it is those who are driven to the end of their coping find this place, but it is the place of life and truth.

And for those who find this place, they all wonder how anyone might imagine the Lord of all would consider those who trample on His work as if it is nothing and snatch them from the fire, when they have abandoned the very reality which He is offering with contempt.

Gr8Grace said:

We are to forgive and love UNCONDITIONALLY, EVERY TIME. Your theology and 'walking in the spirit' puts stipulations on it.

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I have to comment on this concept. The Lord does not offer salvation and eternity to those who have contempt for Him. He forgives past sins of those who come to Him humbly with a contrite heart.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Psalm 51:17

Only a fool would believe a Holy God full of righteousness and judgement would not judge those who come with presumption and pride that they have achieved eternity while denying and hating its principles.
Korah who rebelled against Moses and Aaron, believed God would listen to him, but God killed him.
And the followers who brought coals to the temple this is what God did

And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
Numbers 16:35

The Lord will allow people to be deluded, He will make fools of their ideas and theology, and turn their pride into shame.

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thes 2:12

Closing ones heart, denying God deals with sin, condemning the righteous, taking pride in being in the world and lusting after its benefits is not going to help anyone.

When one believes one in lost in sin, ofcourse desperation is to cling to promises that hold out some hope. But the real answer lies in ones heart, in repentance and confession, in honesty, integrity and love. It is here the truth of the cross speaks and why we are eternally servants serving our glorious Lord. Amen.

Every day people die. Every day His will goes forth from eternity to eternity.
How in the face of this reality can anyone who claims to know Jesus despise His word and think by not repenting of sin in their hearts, not breaking before the King and submitting to Him there is any hope.

I worry about money, about different projects I partake in, about my knowledge of my King, of how to serve Him, but I know He is worthy of praise and I bow the knee to Him every day. To know people who have crossed Him and perished, to know He holds no favourites, and yet to believe He considers wilful rebellion as ok, is just insane.

Maybe its because of wealth, safety and security that men now think they have space for speculation and not trembling fear. I know I stand only because of grace, and I am very very fragile, and in His hands He keeps me and all who call and walk in His ways.

Some think this is a discussion of arguments, but in truth, it is a discussion of the heart and our love of Jesus.

Gr8Grace said:

Read Galatians. Start tying some of this together JLB. Because Paul describes your 'gospel' that deceived these brothers, I will highlight that in red.

And I will Highlight, in black and underline 2 things Paul says. "Removed from Christ" and he still calls them 'brothers.'

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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Ok since your buddy can’t seem to answer any of my questions I have asked him in this thread, then maybe you can answer this question.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

If one cannot back up their own opinions with Scripture that agrees, then one should refrain from expressing their own opinions.

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Lol. Laughter comes because something is said that is so absurd, it causes this response.
It is like a school teacher trying to appeal to authority by stating if they say it, it must be true.
Scripture is clear. Walk in His ways, with His heart or be judged. Jesus makes it even clearer, I will empower you with the Holy Spirit so your communion will be complete. He is our teacher.

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
John 14:26

Jesus is very clear about those who abandon Him.

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
matthew 10:32-33

'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Matt 7:23

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 6:4-6

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 2:21

The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Matthew 13:20-21

The servant who fails
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matt 25:30

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matthew 7:26-27

A foolish man is one who does not put Jesus words into practice.
A foolish man likewise ignores the warnings about disowning Him and abandoning righteousness.
But why would people believe it is critical to believe they are secure? Because they are not secure at all, rather they are just hypocrites and desire the promises without the cross and sacrifice.

Jesus puts it simply
Anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:38-39

To suggest this is not in scripture is to be blind, deaf and dumb. But clearly this is the state of some, so other than clearly showing this, there is nothing left. And I repeat these verses just to show how absurd these empty judgements are, but then there is nothing else that they have.

A man who believes Jesus loves them while in rebellion will search for scriptures that can be turned to support their position and ignore verses that condemn them and place them in judgement.

It is called confirmation bias, where you see what you want to see.

The subject being discussed is are carnal believers lost. The extreme want to declare if carnal ex-believers are saved, and the purpose of faith is to get as many into the believer or ex-believer camp as possible, those who oppose the position are evil and of the enemy.

The righteousness side say if our purpose is to walk as Jesus walked, then anything that detracts from this is false teaching. This side are happy though if people are aiming to learn about love and righteousness, and not disturb the flock. Unfortunately the saved carnal unbelievers want to destroy the righteousness camp, because they blame them for the failure to realise the Kingdom fully and doom people to hell. Confusingly they also tend to believe the elect are eternal and can never be lost or even stopped, so their argument and reasons are not what they really believe.

They want security no matter how badly they mess up. In their world Judas was ok, and Korah, and any lunatic who was ok at one time and went off the rails. It is a diluted form of universalism. But their hatred is for those who point out sin, which is their real agenda, to keep people walking in darkness and not be reminded of their unresolved sins in their heart.

JLB777 said:

Ok since your buddy can’t seem to answer any of my questions I have asked him in this thread, then maybe you can answer this question.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

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Paul answers you JLB. Paul says these believers are removed from Him. And still calls them brothers.

So, removed from him CANNOT be your false theory of loss of salvation.

Gr8Grace said:

And what if a believer becomes faithless?
2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

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Keep reading my friend he hasn’t finished the message yet.

“Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth. Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith. But God’s truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “All who belong to the Lord must turn away from evil.””
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15-19‬

LightLoveHope said:

A man who believes Jesus loves them while in rebellion will search for scriptures that can be turned to support their position and ignore verses that condemn them and place them in judgement.

It is called confirmation bias, where you see what you want to see.

The subject being discussed is are carnal believers lost. The extreme want to declare if carnal ex-believers are saved, and the purpose of faith is to get as many into the believer or ex-believer camp as possible, those who oppose the position are evil and of the enemy.

The righteousness side say if our purpose is to walk as Jesus walked, then anything that detracts from this is false teaching. This side are happy though if people are aiming to learn about love and righteousness, and not disturb the flock. Unfortunately the saved carnal unbelievers want to destroy the righteousness camp, because they blame them for the failure to realise the Kingdom fully and doom people to hell. Confusingly they also tend to believe the elect are eternal and can never be lost or even stopped, so their argument and reasons are not what they really believe.

They want security no matter how badly they mess up. In their world Judas was ok, and Korah, and any lunatic who was ok at one time and went off the rails. It is a diluted form of universalism. But their hatred is for those who point out sin, which is their real agenda, to keep people walking in darkness and not be reminded of their unresolved sins in their heart.

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Yes it makes for a very wide gate to heaven doesn’t it?

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:19

Paul talks about people who have wandered away.
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

Paul is implying some will not repent and therefore will be lost.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 1:20

I have not heard of the handing people over to Satan group who believe in using Satan as a rebuking agent. Maybe we should follow Pauls example and exercise the authority God gives us to hand over more people to the enemy to rebuke them into a proper respect for God and His word.

LightLoveHope said:

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Timothy 2:19

Paul talks about people who have wandered away.
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

Paul is implying some will not repent and therefore will be lost.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 1:20

I have not heard of the handing people over to Satan group who believe in using Satan as a rebuking agent. Maybe we should follow Pauls example and exercise the authority God gives us to hand over more people to the enemy to rebuke them into a proper respect for God and His word.

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As I’ve pointed out before both the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 and those mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 were condemned by their actions not by refusing to believe.

LightLoveHope said:

I have to comment on this concept. The Lord does not offer salvation and eternity to those who have contempt for Him. He forgives past sins of those who come to Him humbly with a contrite heart.

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Like I said. If we have to have others grovel at our feet and kiss our holier than thou butts in order for us to forgive them.....We ain't walking in the Spirit.

Rom 5:8~~New American Standard Bible
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

We are to follow His example(And we will NOT if we are not filled and walking in the Spirit)and forgive UNCONDITIONALLY. It is an absurd and unknown principle in this world and to anyone who has not been saved. Tragic that it is mostly unknown among believers also.

Gr8Grace said:

Like I said. If we have to have others grovel at our feet and kiss our holier than thou butts in order for us to forgive them.....We ain't walking in the Spirit.

Rom 5:8~~New American Standard Bible
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

We are to follow His example(And we will NOT if we are not filled and walking in the Spirit)and forgive UNCONDITIONALLY. It is an absurd and unknown principle in this world and to anyone who has not been saved. Tragic that it is mostly unknown among believers also.

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Salvation is not unconditional. God’s love is unconditional but His wrath is not. If salvation was unconditional then universalism would be true and no one would go to the lake of fire.