2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

EmSw · Nov 13, 2018

JLB777 said:
A branch connected to a vine is used to illustrate our relationship to Christ.

Abide simply means remain connected in relationship.

Abide in Him is to remain in Him.

Just as a branch receives its life from the vine, and can not live apart from it, so it is with us, we have no eternal life apart from Christ.

Here is how the scripture teaches us we are to abide in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

JLB

Agriculture is not one of the strong points of Free Grace theology.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

I asked this:
"'m not interested in what one "claims". My only point is about those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation. They shall never perish because Jesus gives them eternal life.

Why don't you believe what Jesus says?"

LightLoveHope said:
Free, you do not read very well.

Actually, I read quite well. But it appears that you don't read so well, and you don't answer questions at all.

Those who are called from eternity will never perish.

Is that really how you "read" Johnb 10:28? If so, you've just demonstrated that your reading skills are in need of remedial training.

Who even knows what "called from eternity" means? Let's just focus on what Jesus actually said. He said "recipients", that means those He gives eternal life.

And then He said "they", meaning recipients of eternal life, "shall never perish".

But only Jesus knows who they are.

What we know from Scripture is that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Jesus said so in John 5:24 and 6:47, where He used the PRESENT TENSE for "has".

And the apostle John said so in 1 John 5:11 and 13. In v.11 John said it in the PAST TENSE (aorist) of already having been given eternal life.

Many weeds are sown, and much fake belief and understanding exist. Only those who stand to the end will be saved, because only they are truly the called and chosen.

This is all just irrelevant and a smokescreen, for the fact is, once a person believes, they actually possess eternal life, and th result or EFFECT is that they shall never perish. And you cannot refute this FACT.

The lie behind the position you put forward is there is value in knowing Jesus but walking in sin.

I'm going to ask that you support your stupid claim here by providing clear proof that I have made this extremely fallacious statement.

Let me make this perfectly clear; there is NO VALUE IN walking in sin. That is worse than stupid.

The second lie is those who point out this lie are of satan. And these evil people deserve to be exposed and driven out from the church.

OK, another ridiculous claim that I've lied. So, again, provide clear evidence that I ever made either of these also stupid points.

If you want a well put together satanic story line, this is it. Condemn the righteous by people who appear to be believers themselves though they deny their hearts and resolving sin.

This sentence doesn't make a lick of sense. Please re-phrase.

So I reject your position and its implications, and know my security and love in Christ Jesus.

How are you "secure in Christ" yet other believers can't be secure?

I see and understand so much in Jesus now, and I am grateful to Him. It is down to each of us to listen and learn through the Holy Spirit as we walk, for He is our teacher.

What does this have to do with eternal security?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

JLB777 said:
Why is discussing the plain straightforward words of Jesus, silliness to you.

This is just comical. You believe that recipients of eternal life can perish, in spite of the extremely clear and plain words of Jesus in John 10:28.

You can't even explain your fantasy that John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
This is all about a superspiritual view of faith. It is a kind of gnostic view where the heavenly comes to earth, the eternal embodied in the flesh, though the flesh continues to sin, the spirit is pure and perfect.

On who's side? Yours or ours?

Actually, bringing in the word "superspiritual" suggests, at least, that you are simply trying to deflect from a view that you cannot refute, and your own failure to support and defend your own view.

This is actually all about a spiritual view of the Christian life (faith).

This is just a way of excusing sin.

Are you really just being so dishonest? Where have either Gr8grace or I ever excused sin? I can't help what you mind conjures up, but I assure you neither of us has ever done that.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Living in Darkness

Those who do not cleanse their hearts through the cross live in darkness.

To be clear, it is by faith in the work of Christ on the cross that one is forgiven and cleansed and born again.

However, because every believer continues to possess their human nature, which is corrupt, they still sin, and need on-going forgiveness and cleansing. That is why John was inspired to write 1 John 1. It's all about fellowship with the Lord. By confessing our sins, we are forgiven and cleansed of them and either maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord.

Same principle as in marriage, a PERMANENT relationship in God's economy.

When one spouse offends the other, fellowship is broken. Through confession by the offending spouse, fellowship is restored. No other way.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
We have Jesus's reassurance because we know the cross and we know His love through His death and resurrection.

We have assurance because Jesus told us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But one must believe what He says.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

EmSw said:
Agriculture is not one of the strong points of Free Grace theology.

Are you totally unaware of the fact that there is no agriculture in biblical theology? There are certainly agricultural metaphors, but who, in their right mind, that is, takes any metaphor literally?

btw, i've got some biblical principles for you to consider.

Gal 3-
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

v.10 directly describes your theology; relying on the works of the law.
v.11 plainly says your theology does not justify you before God. You are under a curse.
v.12 reveals the problem with your theology; it is not based on faith.
v.13 - explain HOW Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
v.14 says we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith. iow, NOT by works of the law.

Your theology is under a curse. To be avoided like the plague.

Gr8Grace · Nov 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
This is all about a superspiritual view of faith. It is a kind of gnostic view where the heavenly comes to earth, the eternal embodied in the flesh, though the flesh continues to sin, the spirit is pure and perfect.

So you admit that you don't know how to live the Christian way of life.

LightLoveHope said:
This is just a way of excusing sin.

Whatever Peter. Point me to where I have said that.

In fact, you have to make this all about sin, because you are excusing evil. And that is what I am pointing out. By all accounts, you are living in human good(evil) and not DIVINE good.

Especially, if you say walking in the Spirit, which we are COMMANDED to do.....is "super spiritual."

LightLoveHope said:
We know that walking in the light is about an open heart, being cleansed within through repentance and faith. What you are expressing is not the way or the cross or repentance or following Jesus.

Walking in the spirit is putting on the things of heaven and putting to death the passions of this world.
This is exactly what Paul says and all the apostles. It is empowered by love and the Holy Spirit.

Just more hot air, if you have not a clue HOW to walk in the Spirit.

And it shows your extreme confusion and hyper-sensitivity.

I say," Walk in the Spirit." And it is 'super spiritual' and gnostic. And in your next breath you preach your erroneous view of being all gushy and mushy and that is how we "walk in the Spirit."

JLB777 · Nov 13, 2018

EmSw said:
Agriculture is not one of the strong points of Free Grace theology.

Anything outside of John 10:28 is not a strong point of Freegrace’s theology, especially verse 27.

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
This is just comical. You believe that recipients of eternal life can perish, in spite of the extremely clear and plain words of Jesus in John 10:28.

You can't even explain your fantasy that John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security.

Verse 27 explains it for me. Lol!

I believe all of what Jesus and His Apostles taught must be recognized and reconciled.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?

JLB

Gr8Grace · Nov 13, 2018

EmSw said:
Agriculture is not one of the strong points of Free Grace theology.

Correct. It is the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the CROSS that is the strong point of His FREE Grace.

It would not surprise me if agriculture was required in your theology......Grow grapes or DIE.

Gr8Grace · Nov 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you totally unaware of the fact that there is no agriculture in biblical theology? There are certainly agricultural metaphors, but who, in their right mind, that is, takes any metaphor literally?

btw, i've got some biblical principles for you to consider.

Gal 3-
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

v.10 directly describes your theology; relying on the works of the law.
v.11 plainly says your theology does not justify you before God. You are under a curse.
v.12 reveals the problem with your theology; it is not based on faith.
v.13 - explain HOW Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
v.14 says we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith. iow, NOT by works of the law.

Your theology is under a curse. To be avoided like the plague.

Just think:

If Paul would have remained Saul......He would be EmSw's SUPER hero. Sad.

Gr8Grace · Nov 13, 2018

JLB777 said:
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

JLB

And I have seen no evidence that you do this. For one who holds the keys to the kingdom, I would think they would have a heart to show us EXACTLY how they follow His commandments. An unambiguous list. A definitive list.

LightLoveHope · Nov 13, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
In fact, you have to make this all about sin, because you are excusing evil. And that is what I am pointing out. By all accounts, you are living in human good(evil) and not DIVINE good.

Hi Gr,

I think you missunderstand me. I am not commenting on you personally but addressing certain positions and the place some people are in. If you do not like what I am sharing, about walking in the light because our deeds are good, you must rather walk in darkness.

This is not actually a dispute between people, this is the revelation of Jesus and the apostles. We either agree with them and walk in the light or we are in darkness and lost.

So are you against walking in the light, being cleansed walking with an open heart in love?

LightLoveHope · Nov 13, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
So you admit that you don't know how to live the Christian way of life.

The reality is "Gr" I know how to follow Jesus. All followers of Jesus do, because we listen to Him.
The sad truth is because people sin praise songs, speak in tongues, have great prophecy, teaching and authority their hearts testify of thorns and thistles.

It is this that shows they are false teachers.
It is all too easy to talk about spiritual authority while actually having none.

Our authority comes from God and His word. And His word commands us to walk as He walked, to be people of the Light. We can only achieve this through repentance, faith and obedience, filled with the Holy Spirit and with love flowing from our hearts.

Is this is a problem for you? I can help you through the steps of repentance, confession, resolution and accepting Christs overflowing forgiveness, if that will help. Praise the Lord He gives us the victory

LightLoveHope · Nov 13, 2018

A man of peace

You can tell people are up to miss-chief when their desire is to cause disagreement were there is none, to provoke where only good intentions and love are plain. The great thing about Jesus and following Him is it does not matter, because He is Lord and His love knows no bounds, Amen.

LightLoveHope · Nov 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
We have assurance because Jesus told us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But one must believe what He says.

I do believe what He said, that His sheep will never perish. Amen to that. It is a true anchor from the King do His people. As Paul says we need to take these promises to heart and test that we actually dwell in Christ

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12:1

Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
2 Corinthians 13:5-6

We test ourselves by looking at our behaviour, our loyalties, our hearts. If our hearts long for the world and the things that are the worlds, we have not yet grasped Christ and the love that is eternal. But if our hearts rejoice in Him and His works and will, amen, welcome brother and sister in Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

JLB777 said:
Anything outside of John 10:28 is not a strong point of Freegrace’s theology, especially verse 27.
JLB

lol. John 10:28 is such a CLEAR and STRAIGHTFORWARD verse about eternal security, that I don't need any more verses.

No one from the OSNAS ilk has been able to refute what I have pointed out about what Jesus meant in that verse.

However, to charge me with having just a "one-verse" theology, not to worry. There are many verses and passages that directly teach eternal security. It's just that John 10:28 is SO CLEAR, why discuss other verses.

Here is a list of the verses and passages that teach eternal security clearly.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Therefore, the gift of God being eternal life, is irrevocable

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

All who have been sealed when they believed, were sealed for the day of redemption.

Therefore, all who have been sealed will be redeemed on the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; which is when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Therefore, those who have been given eternal life (an irrevocable gift of God) will never perish.

In order to NEVER PERISH, one must be given eternal life.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Therefore, at the moment in time when one believes, they ARE SEALED, they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and according to the Bible, they WILL NEVER PERISH, but see the day of redemption, the reason for their sealing.

Sixth, 1 Peter 1:23 says “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”

Therefore, those who have been born again or regenerated are of IMPERISHABLE SEED, which means they WILL NEVER PERISH, exactly what Jesus promised in John 10:28. (see points 1 and 3)

Seventh, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation, have their eternal life revoked, or that believers may indeed perish in the lake of fire.

We know that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for (1) TEACHING, for (2) reproof, for (3) correction, and for (4) training in righteousness". 2 Tim 3:16

If none of the verses above are FOR teaching, then which category do they apply to?

And, this is a question that no Arminian can answer. So they don't even try.
And, IF, any of the verses above are FOR teaching, then what, specifically, do they teach, if not eternal security?

Gr8Grace · Nov 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I think you missunderstand me. I am not commenting on you personally

LightLoveHope said:
you must rather walk in darkness.

LightLoveHope said:
So are you against walking in the light, being cleansed walking with an open heart in love?

You do know Peter, that the heart is the MIND. The right lobe of the brain where we do our THINKING. This is why we study the MIND of Christ and learn His doctrines.

I am against your hyper-sensitive, emotion driven way of "walking in the Light." From the biblical perspective.........That is walking in the dark. It may look all peachy on the outside. But it is still considered walking in the darkness.

Do not quench the Spirit. We need to recognize when we do this.IMO, This is what the majority of us do.
Do not grieve the Spirit. We need to recognize when we do this.

Be filled with the Spirit. 1 John 1:9

and Walk by means of the Spirit.

Follow and APPLY these principles......we walk in the Light and have fellowship with Him. And I love doing this. It is quite freeing and joyful. Even in adversity.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 13, 2018

JLB777 said:
Verse 27 explains it for me. Lol!

Maybe for you, but not for serious students of the Word of God, who are diligent by studying to prove themselves workmen who are not ashamed and rightly divide the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

v.27 is very clear about being a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Certainly not a condition for how to be His sheep. Which is the twist that you've put on it.

I believe all of what Jesus and His Apostles taught must be recognized and reconciled.

Let's just put this statement to the test, shall we?

Can any recipient of eternal life EVER perish? yes or no.

That will settle the issue of whether you really believe what you claim.

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?
JLB

With this penchant for creating obviously bogus questions, you must realize that there is no answer for them.

Your question was nullified by the second phrase, "then is removed from Christ". That is impossible because of what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13,14

And, again, a color coded explanation for ease of following my points:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words teach both the HOW and the WHEN one is placed in union with Christ. They are placed in union with Christ WHEN they believe, and that is accomplished by the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who IS the seal.

The blue words teach eternal security by indicating that the indwelling Holy Spirit (the deposit) actually GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance; that being the inheritance of a child of God, and a guaranteed entrance into heaven.

The green words also teach eternal security by mentioning the redemption of God's possession, which are sealed believers.

So, all believers are sealed WHEN they believe, they are guaranteed their inheritance at the redemption because they are God's possession.

Now consider a companion verse: Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Isn't it amazing? That even those believers who GRIEVE the Holy Spirit who indwells them are STILL sealed for the day of redemption.

iow, they are redeemed by the fact of their sealing, even though they GRIEVE the Spirit.

Now, that is grace!! God's grace.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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