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I am waiting for him to start teaching universalism.............It's what the early church 'fathers' taught.
Wait a minute. We all have been waiting patiently for your references from the smorshodox church and their 'interpretation' of the aorist tense.......Give me that......And I will flood you with references on how the early church fathers believed in universalism.References please
But you have never met any who became unsaved, lost eternal life, became a goat again, lost His seal, became perishable...........Live in His promises and His word, not your experience.I’ve met a few who were believers who later became atheist.
Wait a minute. We all have been waiting patiently for your references from the smorshodox church and their 'interpretation' of the aorist tense.......Give me that......And I will flood you with references on how the early church fathers believed in universalism.
But you have never met any who became unsaved, lost eternal life, became a goat again, lost His seal, became perishable...........Live in His promises and His word, not your experience.
I guarantee if you live in His promises( You will NEVER perish) rather than making up extreme scenarios and 'feelings' experience .........You will advance in His Life for you.
Oh, just stop it. They rejected grace, which is obvious from their writings.Those teachings were handed down from the apostles in the churches they established.
I guess you didn't read the verses where it was PROPHESIED that false teachers would get into the church.Adversus Haeresus was written around 180AD. Did the apostles go around establishing churches so that we could ignore their teachings?
By "all of the churches", you can only mean the Catholic church, or it's subsidiaries, the "orthodox" churches. And YES, they WERE and ARE still teaching false doctrine.If your saying they’re false teachings your saying that all of Christianity was teaching falsely because all of the churches taught that salvation is conditional which would mean that for the first 1500 years the gates of hell did prevail until Martin Luther finally came along.
As I pointed out, they KNEW the church (body of Christ) would be infiltrated with false teachers.Why did the apostles establish churches if all of them were wrong?
And every time is in error.I’ve already explained several times.
Are you really so unaware of the fact that Jews were (and still are) quite proud of being the "chosen"? What were they chosen for? Service to God. And when they persecuted Christians, they thought they were serving God.He is warning His 11 faithful apostles that they must abide (remain) in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off (detached or to take off or away what is attached) from the vine (Jesus) cast away (carelessly thrown away or discarded without regard) to wither (dry up or waste away) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire).
None of it.Which part of this sounds like it ends with salvation?
Simply wrong as well. They teach in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. John 10:28It’s really quite simple the Orthodox Church does not teach eternal security.
Which proves that they have always been WRONG.They have always taught conditional salvation.
Oh, I seeeee. The false church's opinions are more valuable than what the actual Greek text SAYS. Sheeeeesh! Well, at least you're being transparent about it.The aorist tense is irrelevant because the church has always taught that a person must presently believe in order to be saved.
I believe what Jesus said, over what the false church of the so-called "orthodox" says.A person who believed at one time then turns to doubt God and doesn’t repent will not be saved.
We have churches and teachers even today that teach the horrendous heresy of universalism.So please do explain how the church taught that everyone would be saved regardless of believing in Jesus or not.
No they're not based on biblical facts. Your views are in direct opposition to John 10:28, yet you won't engage with that verse because it clearly refutes your false teaching.My beliefs have nothing to do with “feelings experiences” my beliefs are based on biblical facts supported by the Church of God since the beginning of Christianity.
How sad. What really happened is that you were sucked in by a false teacher. And your "belief in OSAS" obviously wasn't based on biblical facts. If it were, you would have seen those false teachers for what they are; false.You forget that I also once believed in OSAS and defended it passionately until I learned more about God’s Word and received a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures as a whole.
OK, you wanna go there? Then provide explanation of how I've taken John 10:28 "out of context". You can't just throw out a charge without backing it up. You have no credibility if you don't provide evidence.I graduated from taking single verses out of context
All you've done is reject the absolute plain and clear verses on eternal security for the verses that are WAY LESS clear, usually containing metaphors and figures of speech.and realized the bigger message by not simply dismissing the verses that don’t support OSAS and actually refute the idea by contemplating how all the scriptures can be true without contradicting each other I came to the realization that the Orthodox Church has kept the message intact since the beginning.
Are you really so unaware of the fact that Jews were (and still are) quite proud of being the "chosen"? What were they chosen for? Service to God. And when they persecuted Christians, they thought they were serving God.
John 16:2 - They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.
So, in the previous chapter, Jesus was making the point that unless believers are IN fellowship with Him, they will be cut off from SERVICE to God. A horrible thought to orthodox Jews, and Christians.
Simply wrong as well. They teach in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. John 10:28
Which proves that they have always been WRONG.
Oh, I seeeee. The false church's opinions are more valuable than what the actual Greek text SAYS. Sheeeeesh! Well, at least you're being transparent about it.
I believe what Jesus said, over what the false church of the so-called "orthodox" says.
We have churches and teachers even today that teach the horrendous heresy of universalism.
And I have explained the warning of the writers of Scripture of false teaching coming in to the church.
No they're not based on biblical facts. Your views are in direct opposition to John 10:28, yet you won't engage with that verse because it clearly refutes your false teaching.
I stand corrected about their origins. But so what? I never based anything on what they believe. They simply agree with the Bible about infant baptism.Oh yes the anabaptists which according to Britanica started in the 16th century although some say it was the mid 15th century. So you’d rather believe some crap about a church established 1500 years after the apostles died rather than the ALL of churches we know from the Bible that they actually established?
And I AGREE!! But I reject the notion that "falling away" means losing salvation.I am utterly without words to express just how absolutely illogical and ridiculous this idea is. The Bible says some will fall away not all.
You keep repeating this baseless charge, yet provide ZERO evidence that I have twisted anything.No matter what evidence you are shown neither in the scriptures, the church, or early church father’s writings you still insist on twisting all of these in order to make your ridiculous belief appear to be true.
Hilarious. Just read John 10:28.You simply ignore all of the overwhelming evidence stacked against it.
Where did I ever claim or even suggest that Jesus' words were only to His 11 disciples? Of course His words are for EVERY BELIEVER. And Jesus affirmed their eternal security in John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe bythat name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.Again I have also explained that Jesus says in John 15:1-10 to His 11 faithful apostles about 15 times “YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU”!! He is not talking to or about someone else his statements are directed to His apostles.
Go ahead and continue in your destructive path in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.Another futile attempt to distort the truth and twist the scriptures to fit your beliefs.
How do you "recognize" a contingent statement? Show me the words that link v.27 with never perishing in v.28.No the church simply has a more comprehensive understanding of what Jesus taught and realize that John 10:28 is contingent on the basis of John 10:27.
I read a lexicon. How else would I know that? I don't make stuff up, as you apparently do.You haven’t given any proof that 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is in the aorist tense. You’ve simply claimed that it is.
False teaching is always relevant, whether in the 1st Century or the 21st Century.Who cares what other people teach today that is completely irrelevant.
Well good for them. I agree.My quotes from Adversus Haereses already refuted universalism and that the church taught universalism.
Why don't you just get over this obsession with "the church"? let's just stay with what the Bible SAYS, ok? that's my focus. I couldn't care less about what any church teaches.Yes an I’ve explained how the scriptures don’t say that all of the churches will fall away as your suggesting they did for the first 1500 years of Christianity.
lolI have and many others here on CF have repeatedly refuted your interpretation of John 10:28 based on verse 27.
So what? The key is who His sheep are. And v.9 tells us who will be saved. Those who enter through the "gate" (Himself). This is a metaphor for believing in Christ for salvation.“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”
John 10:27
His sheep FOLLOW Him present tense.
I stand corrected about their origins. But so what? I never based anything on what they believe. They simply agree with the Bible about infant baptism.
From Wikipedia:
The name Anabaptist means "one who baptizes again". Their persecutors named them this, referring to the practice of baptizing persons when they converted or declared their faith in Christ, even if they had been baptized as infants.[8]Anabaptists required that baptismal candidates be able to make a confession of faith that is freely chosen and so rejected baptism of infants. The early members of this movement did not accept the name Anabaptist, claiming that infant baptism was not part of scripture and was therefore null and void. They said that baptizing self-confessed believers was their first true baptism:
Does the Orthodox church baptize infants, as to the Catholics?
And I AGREE!! But I reject the notion that "falling away" means losing salvation.
Again, if that were true, then Jesus would HAVE HAD to say this:
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T FALL AWAY, they shall never perish." But did you notice that Jesus never said such a thing.
You keep repeating this baseless charge, yet provide ZERO evidence that I have twisted anything.
In fact, in order to believe that salvation can be lost, it is YOU and your church that have twisted John 10:28 to mean something other than what Jesus plainly said.
Hilarious. Just read John 10:28.
Where did I ever claim or even suggest that Jesus' words were only to His 11 disciples?
How do you "recognize" a contingent statement? Show me the words that link v.27 with never perishing in v.28.
I'll give you the answer since you see averse to answering questions or providing any evidence for your beliefs and claims.
The contingent word in v.27 is "My sheep". That identifies the "them" and "they" in v.28 as BELIEVERS, since Jesus made clear who is saved back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
With the many verses that say we are saved by faith, we know that Jesus used the metaphor of entering through the gate (Himself) as faith in Himself.
So that's who His sheep ARE. And the rest of v.27 is simply and clearly a description of what His sheep do. There is NOTHING about the list as being conditions for never perishing.
I read a lexicon. How else would I know that? I don't make stuff up, as you apparently do.
False teaching is always relevant, whether in the 1st Century or the 21st Century.
Well good for them. I agree.
Why don't you just get over this obsession with "the church"? let's just stay with what the Bible SAYS, ok? that's my focus. I couldn't care less about what any church teaches.
Your focus is misplaced. Forget the "church" and focus on Scripture alone.
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