2 Questions

[stranger]

WE as His Children must dig and reach to find the differences.
...
squint

God has said that He will teach everyone personally by His spirit eventally {Joel 2:28], to know all truth in this life [John 16:13] and to come to love perfectly BEFORE death ...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one
another.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Saints do not teach each other , they have no need ...

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Obvously most men died without this spirit baptism in this life because most men die without being led into all truth, most men die sinners, not perfectly loving saints...

It is a mistake then to think that one is God's chiild until one has been baptised into all his truth to be able to prove ones love by doing it all the time, ceasing all sin... God takes only saints as His sons...

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[squint]

God has said that He will teach everyone personally by His spirit eventally {Joel 2:28], to know all truth in this life [John 16:13] and to come to love perfectly BEFORE death ...

Well, I am forced to deal with the fact that we all see in part and in darkness as well, so what do we do with that side of the ledger?

I do believe that God loves all mankind perfectly, Agape style, but we do not presently perceive the entirety of that, nor may we ever in the eternal realm as Love like God NEVER ends.

Saints do not teach each other , they have no need ...

I am cognizant of the "two vessel" position, and that those who are "in truth" know what I speak of, and those who don't will hear from me on this matter, as that is what "we" who are His are called to do.

Obvously most men died without this spirit baptism in this life because most men die without being led into all truth, most men die sinners, not perfectly loving saints...

I blame and accuse NO vessel of honor and all mankind ARE Gods offspring, so WHO is the vessel of honor? And moreso, WHO are the vessels of DISHONOR? This is how I divide, as Jesus also showed "us" who are His.

It is a mistake then to think that one is God's chiild until one has been baptised into all his truth to be able to prove ones love by doing it all the time, ceasing all sin... God takes only saints as His sons...

The vessel of dishonor never ceases to sin in the flesh and mind, and we cannot say we have no sin and be IN Truth (an avoidance from you earlier in this thread a couple of times,) and those who commit sin are of the devil.

There is no avoiding the math here.

There is however discerning division provided by The Word and nary the two positions shall be blurred except by those whom it suits to blur.

enjoy!

squint

 

[stranger]

The vessel of dishonor never ceases to sin in the flesh and mind, and we cannot say we have no sin and be IN Truth (an avoidance from you earlier in this thread a couple of times,) and those who commit sin are of the devil.

Well , actually you missed the point made by scripture, the saints do depart from sin, they just never say they have ... because God is the one who judges that ,not men...

Thus it is a small misunderstanding by you ,of the very exact words of scripture, which led you to the common false conclusion that all men are sinners till death frees them from sin...

Jesus in fact showed that this isn't true, by living without sin, perfect love, till death ... so you could have seen it was not true that men cannot be perfect in lve, without sin... and indeed the perfection of love is the commandment of jesus to the saints , else telling them to love wold have been wasting his breath :-

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thus the saints are to be perfect in love as the Father, not sinners any longer, and their past sins are forgiven under the covenant of grace, but they do not continue in sin :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I do not see any explanation of how you ignore all these scriptures, and Jesus' statement that he will not take any sinners at his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Ben12]

There are untold millions ot Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L T-H-I-N-G-S A-R-E O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as many have taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect," then one of the "perfect" angels "made himself" into the Devil and the Devil came in and wrecked the work of God's hands and so degraded God's beautiful and perfect creation that the Lord Almighty Himself was hard to put to the test to discover some way to restore the creation from the clutches of the Devil and after six long and tortuous milleniums of conflict and struggle, contest and effort the battle still rages on year after year and generation after generation, the Devil out-foxing God at times, and God getting the upper hand eventually.

Why, oh why can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own Word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says, "surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, or wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil - famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word "ra" which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used!

For example, in Gen. 6:5 we read, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil (ra) continually." Again, "And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil (ra) in the sight of the Lord, was consumed" (Num. 32:13). In Ps. 34:13-15 we are admonished, "Keep your tongue from evil (ra), and your lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil (ra), and do good ... the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open unto their cry. The very same word in the original is also rendered "wicked" and "wickedness" more than a hundred times. So God declares, "I must form the light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things!" Why should puny man attempt to shield the Almighty from the responsibility He Himself has taken? If He says He creates peace, then believe Him. If He says He creates evil, then believe that, too. Do you remember how they brought the blind man to Jesus, and as the poor fellow stood there, the disciples said to Jesus, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus replied, "Neither has this man sinned, not his parents: BUT THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM" (Jn. 9:2-3). So through the evil of blindness the glory of God was manifested in the end!

 

[stranger]

BUT THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM" (Jn. 9:2-3). So through the evil of blindness the glory of God was manifested in the end!

Nice quote!...

Bad used for good in the end, just as God allows Satan to torment Job with catastrophe, a man who God acknowledges as a good man ... why? ... to make Job see that he was not quite perfect , and in that perfection of humility to God alone as the one who knows everything , saving Job from the vain pride in knowing much , that is Satan's undoing from perfection...

Thus we find God hardens Pharoah's heart for His purpose , God uses bad things toward the ultimate good of everyone accepting Him as their god through Jesus Christ :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Thus we have God planting bad thoughts in men's minds for sake of the end :-

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul,

Psalms 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 

[armothe]

You are forced to disbelieve much scripture then ?

I've already explained my thoughts on the matter. Where you translate 'rah' as evil/wickedness, I translate as calamity. Hence, God creates ill-fortune, not wickedness.

God used Satan as the 'evil spirit' and tempter of man, thus no evil or wicked thing proceeded directly from God.

James 1:13 - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God can not be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

You, Ben 12 and Squint are the ones that have to live with your assertions that God is evil. I personally believe that God is good, noble and pure and that we are to strive to be like Him with the help of His presence in our lives.

-A

 

[squint]

It has been a very great comfort to me to know that Gods Words in every matter are fully True and fully applicable.

These things are hard and problematic to understand and perceive, and why NOT? God is A SPIRIT. His Word is Spirit.

I do not believe that God means evil to His offspring, yet just LOOK at what God DID to His Own Son! Had Him killed in a most unmerciful way. Who of us will go in that fashion, and willingly no less? Very few indeed will suffer as He suffered.

It is hard for us to perceive "why" evil exists. Thank God it's a temporal condition. God commanded that LIGHT shine from DARKNESS, yet God also DIVIDED the Light from the darkness.

We as His are children of the day and of the light, yet the children of darkness and wickedness are more astute than us in this present environ.

Leviticus 24:2
Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Mixing the vessels, one for another is a vileness in Gods Eyes and one performed by the children of this world, the children of the flesh, the children of the devil which "generation singular" has not yet passed away, and these do BEAT us, the children of LIGHT into PURITY, that we DIVIDE ourselves as children of the LIGHT from "them."

God even sought to KILL Moses at one point, showing that even Moses had a vessel of DISHONOR in his own flesh who was "disobedient" to God and Gods "enemy."

This is our present lot and there is no escaping this reality til our set time is UP. It is a "test of honesty" to acknowledge this reality that has been set In Word. To admit the presence of a child of the devil in one's own flesh is an abhorrance to us as His children, yet it is also a sign of TRUTH upon that Child of God. A truth that we must acknowledge to be IN Truth. To be "in" Truth one has to be "truthful" even when it is disgusting truth. And in this way I know who my "friends" are and if there is no truthful admittance of this reality, then I know I am speaking with a blind person, and more than not, the "other" vessel has blinded that child of God.

God's judgment comes upon the "whole world." A world that is UN-divided. It is our "obligation" to walk as Jesus walked, knowing the portion of the Word that is DUE to the vessels of dishonor knowing in advance that it AROUSES them, and to bring the Light, the CLOTHING of righteousness, the COOL drink of the Word, the visit to the "prisoners," the "sick" the "lame" who we know ALL of our fellow man to be, and WHO is fitted for such things? We are like "sacrifices halved" on the altar by Gods Words:

2 Corinthians 2:

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Which WORLD is Jesus speaking of here? The world that LIES in the hands of the "wicked one." That is a world that you CANNOT see apart from The Word and only Gods CHILDREN will be enabled to DIVIDE that world via His Word/Light disclosure.

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He COMES to us by HIS WORD children, and there we, as HIS WOMAN/CHURCH bow with covered heads before HIS Words and He comes to US and fights with THEM.

Do my fellow believers HEAR His Words in these matters?

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Therefore we SPEAK and SHARE and we "resist" that world and it's inhabitants IN the flesh of our fellow man and in THAT WAY ALL of Gods Words bring HONOR to Him and RESISTANCE to the opposers.

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

enjoy your BURDEN of LIGHT. You were MADE to DIVIDE and MULTIPLY!

squint

 

[stranger]

I've already explained my thoughts on the matter. Where you translate 'rah' as evil/wickedness, I translate as calamity. Hence, God creates ill-fortune, not wickedness.

Does God create 'ill-fortune' ? ... Is it that God creates ills as fortune ... how can it be by chance or 'fortune' if God creates it ... it is not by chance at all , but God creates it... thus it is saying that God creates ills on men , which is no different than creatiung evil. there is no difference between ills and evil and badness ... they all ammount to the same thing, excessive destruction of something ...

Now God destroys the whole earth and heavens eventually , once His purpose in it is over, killing billions of people.... now that is an ill of great magnitude, people will see it as evil, as bad, but God means it for good in the end ... but He really does create this evil on almost all men, very few are translated before the nd of thsi world, few find the narrow strait way , and even they are chastened with evils, tried by bad unjust things happening to them to perfect their love, just as Jesus was tried and they follow him in that baptism of 'fire' ... precious trial of given faith ...

God used Satan as the 'evil spirit' and tempter of man, thus no evil or wicked thing proceeded directly from God.

Satan surely is the only one who tempts men to do evil, but god alone creates the means to do evil ... it is not satan who hardens Pharoah's heart , it is not Satan who fails to give all truth to all men now so they can resist Satan... evil or badness is not an object, it is craeted by providing the means and the temptation to use it... It is God who provides both and thus craetes evil or badness or ills , just as He says He does

You, Ben 12 and Squint are the ones that have to live with your assertions that God is evil. I personally believe that God is good, noble and pure and that we are to strive to be like Him with the help of His presence in our lives.

I quite agree with you, God is good , noble, and pure ... i actually resent your false assertion about what I believe, you have no place to say what I believe and get it wrong because you never even asked ....

God is the epitome of good-ness , even using evil or bad for good in the end, using it to perfect love in Jesus and the saints, using it to humble Satan and mankind... in order to save all men from what He requires us to go throuh for His purpose ... proving that there is no other way than love by giving Satan this earth to try the other ways than love , and to fail to find any one which works... so we have excessive destruction simply because God wants it proved by creation that not only is He right [proved by Jesus, the riht-hand 'covering cherub at the throne of God ], but also that His way has no alternetive that works 'long-term' [as proved by Satan, the left-hand 'covering cherub]

Thus there are only two cherubs covering the whole power of God's throne, working together to prove not only that god is right bit that there is no other god worthy of the name , no alternative to God's law of love ...His truth that eternity can only be reached by perfection of love :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So ,in the end there is no evil , all creation including Satan in the end , accepts Jesus' commandment as lord , to love ...

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Satan, unlike Logos that became Jesus, is thus a created being , and certainly, by jesus' own words here, does come to accept Jesus as Lord and so receive mercy in the end ... but first God must humble Satan and mankind from belief in sin , in unloving ways , turn all creation to respecting only love and ceasing to sin.... the first step is to cast Satan into the earth as a man and for him to die , just as the other cherub died as a man :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And four faces had each one,—the first face, was the face of a cherub, and, the second face, was the face of a man and the third was the face of a lion. and the fourth, was the face of an eagle.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

This then is the hook in Satan's jaw set by God, his snare ... that the world will do din, traet him as lord, worship his image of a god and saviour [Rev 13:3-8] and yet God will show him he is not a god at all, though almost all the world worships his ways of evil... and does not turn to perfect love [bar just 144,000 saints out of over ten billion people and a few 'friends of God', elders of Israel ]

Thus half the power of God goes into creating evil in this world, just as half goes into the righteousness of the new earth and heavens , there is only one part in a million of good in this world and a similar ammout perhaps of evil in the new earth to trial the saints of the new earth in perfection of their love

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Thus all the evil of this world and the less of the new earth, is directed at good , and both together are solely for God's GOOD purpose of establishing by creation that He is right, that He is the ONLY true god , by love alone... by the truth that love is in fact, in reality, the only way, that sin fails ...

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

There are two messages from God then , by His two cherubs, different messages, but together they say that God is God by right of goodness of love ... neither one alone is enough, God has to show He ois right, but also to show that He is the ONLY one who is right... ths God requires bOTh darkness and light for His full light in the end when all creation accepts Him alone as God , having finally rejected Satan as lord and ceased to sin...

 

[armothe]

Does God create 'ill-fortune' ? ... Is it that God creates ills as fortune ... how can it be by chance or 'fortune' if God creates it ... it is not by chance at all , but God creates it... thus it is saying that God creates ills on men , which is no different than creatiung evil. there is no difference between ills and evil and badness ...

Well I think we already established that we differ in our definitions. You believe calamity and sin are the same thing. I believe there is a difference between the two.

Sin involves the disobedience to or violation of God's commandments. God can't disobey himself (I was speaking of paradoxes earlier) thus God can't really commit sin.

If God allows Satan to throw a roof on Job's family it is considered calamity, which you already indicated serves a higher purpose. If I were to throw a roof on Job's family I am in violation of sin & wickedness. Therein lies the difference.

-A

 

[stranger]

Well I think we already established that we differ in our definitions. You believe calamity and sin are the same thing. I believe there is a difference between the two.

Sin involves the disobedience to or violation of God's commandments. God can't disobey himself (I was speaking of paradoxes earlier) thus God can't really commit sin.

If God allows Satan to throw a roof on Job's family it is considered calamity, which you already indicated serves a higher purpose. If I were to throw a roof on Job's family I am in violation of sin & wickedness. Therein lies the difference.

-A

I have never suggested that God can sin, where did you get that idea from ???

God is spirit , sin is material ... the material world is divided [by Jesus] into sinners and saints and so it not peaceful, the spirit is one in God, undivided ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

All spirit is from God then, whether it manifests as good or evil in the world...

an evil spirit from God is only seen as evil by men because it causes harm in the material sense... one cannot harm the spirit because it is God's and always simply returns to Him ..

Men ca and wil see what God does as evil , notably when He destroys tis earth and heavnes and kills billions of people , but they will have a different view of that in the end when they see what it brings about , when God baptises all men [Joel 2:28] to know all His truth [John 16:13] at last ... clearly that hasnb't yet happened and nor does scripture say it will happen in this life to most men, but in the next life... so most men cannot be righteous in this earth, they simply do not know how to utangle Satan's wily temptations because God has not instructed all men yet in how... and we learn to ignore our consciences and follow the world instead because adults taech children to do so ,begining immediately they enter the world... people corrupt their own children to the normal evils of our world without even knowing they are doing so ...

here is one example of a widespread evil tauht by men to almost all men, which most accept everyday and never get to understand :-

http://tinyurl.com/2uoexg

God is not DOING this evil, but He does create it in the world, and all men will come to suffer from it [even those who made millions off other people by it, and run our countries in evil manner by means of it]

God is not evil for creating this evil, He is simply showing that unloving ways like this fail men devastatingly in the end , whilst we thought we could live with them ...

Thus the failure of the ways of this world shows the worthiness of God, that what He has commanded, love, is the only way to eternity ... sinners cannot get into heaven by any means except becoming saints , ceasing to sin... it is just as important to God to show that there is no other way, through Satan, as it is to show that love is a way through Jesus... the two together are necessary then for the fullglorying of all creation in God in the end, prophesied by .... well, God ! ... else God would not be God if there were any other, evil. way in eterniity as many 'christians' who are sinners ,teach in mainline religion of this perverted world ...

again men do not most seem to notice that divided religion MUST be preverted from the truth, God's truth is not divided, men's beliefs as sinners are divided right down to individual level ... that shows that religion is the instrument of Satan in this world simply by understanding that God is not divided in His truth...

We come back then to God's statements in scripture , quoted above, that he craetes all things and thus creates evil ... but God is not evil for doing that , nor could be , it is simply the only way for creation to show that His way of love is the ONLY way, by letting men try other ways under Satan as their lord ... thus one could know that Satan is the lord of all sinners, Jesus is the lord of those who depart from sin , the saints of this world and of the next world., the few first, the many afterward [Rev 7:3-10]

few find the straight narrow way in this evil world, many then must find the way after death and the second resurrection ... it is what God says and one can rely on His word, one will have to do so evenetually or end up in the final trial, the lake of 'fire' from God upon the earth...

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

There are two great periods of redemption to spirit the, one lesser one at |Jesus' return , one massive one after this for sinners of this earth... but sinners cannot be resurrected from death until the second resurrection [of the unjust] ...

God then is God to all creation in the end , Satan loses all his following in this earth, all sinners become saints eventually by accepting Jesus as Lord and obeying him at last, following his commandment as Lord to love, not sin any more ... then he is really their lord rather than just people saying it ...

So God shows that He is worthy as the god of all creation, and indeed must do so to be worthy... God's own name then depends on the eventual redemption of all craeted beings, and even Satan was created :-

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no god, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
[c.f. 2Thess 2:4]

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

This then IS the glory of God, that ALL creation must come to accept Him as their god in the end, but He must do this by means of love , not by any other way, else He is not the God of love...

But men will misunderstand because men must suffer when God allows evil to fall on both the just and the unjust for this end purpose of showing not only that love works, through Jesus, but that evil dails, through Satan... BOTH are essentil to the glor of God, Satan must accept Jesus as Lord in the end , as Jesus says he will [above quote] , else God has failed , which seems more than unlikely ...

As for your sequence about Job's roof .... God could have stopped Satan , but requires Satan to come to accept that His ways don't work, don't make him a god... God gave him all truth, he was created perfect , but still then he needs to act on that truth and cannot do so until he finds out that all hs devised unloving ways don't work as he had hoped they would... thus God allows evil on men that He could stop , were it not that he has a purpose in the demonstration that evil does not work, the redemption of all creation in the end...

Thus God craeted evil for His own good purpose, not to prevent men suffering, but guaranteeing that all men, just and unjust WILL suffer from evil that He created , for sake of His glory in the end as the one and only true god of all creation ...

 

[Kristos]

Okay, so you say God created evil...

Why did He?

 

[stranger]

Okay, so you say God created evil...

Why did He?

Again it is not me who says it, but God Himself , albeit perhaps the deepest point made in scripture by God and hard for many to accept because they do not want to accept suffering for sake of love of others , still less perhaps for sake of God's love of Satan ... but maybe some will accept it for sake of the glory of God in the end:-

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. {KJV]
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light and creating darkness, Making prosperity, and creating misfortune,—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these.{Rotherham]

Well He explains that in scripture quite well I think...

Jesus shows us that love works , Satan shows us that evil doesn't work by getting us to do it and sufferng from it's failure to work... God then has demonstarted to all creeation that not only does His way of love bring creation to eternal spirit [beyond created time and space] , but that His way of love has no alternative ... there is no other way that Satan can devise of becoming immortal than to accept Jesus as lord and cease to sin , thus becoming acceptable to God in the spirit [at the very end of time!]

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Satan was created a perfect being, but not content with perfection as a created being he wants to be a god , to lead the way as God does , in place of God and Jesus Christ [ Satan as the 'antichristos' , one in place of Christ, 'vicar' of Christ ]...

God has then first to get Satan to confess his blasphemy to himself [2Thess 2:4] which is the signal, or sign, for Jesus' return to the earth and the first hard lesson for Satan that he is NOT a god, that he is not even in control of his own death as a man :-

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou really say, God, am I, before him who is slaying thee; When, thou, art a man and not a god, in the hand of them who are piercing h thee?

God on the other hand shows that he is in total control of the life of men and Satan by resurrecting all men and Satan from 'hell ' ...

Why would God even bother to do this if His sole aim was to rid creation of sinners and Satan , why resurrect any of these sinners , , ,created beings who do not love in their actions all the time...?

It is clear perhaps that God stands for lover, and thus that love must overcome their beliefs through love alone, else God is not God of all his creation, and Satan is the god of some of it at least... something not possible ,since God must be the god of love for all he loves else He is not God ... all craetion then must love God and be perfect in love without sin by the end of time, else God would not be the one true God, there would be another god... clearly that does not hapen, as Jesus states, all creation comes to accept Jesus as Lord and thus to ibey hs command to love ...

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Thus God's purpose is to be accepted by all creation by means solely of love ... He thus allows Satan to rule this earth with sin , except for the few God takes as His , the few who find the narrow strait way of following Jesus in being sealed from sin by the holy spirit and thus being saints , not sinners ,in the latter part of their life on THIS earth, God requires only tens of thousands of siants as perfect priests for His kingdom [Rev 7:3-8] , sealed into being saints by grace of their newe covenant , it is enough to minisiter in the redemption of billions of gentiles afterward [Rev 7:9-10]:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Thus in order to begin the vast task of humbling Satan from his blaspemy, God requires first to get him to admit it to himself [2Thess 2:4] by all men [bar the few saints of this earth] being deluded into worshipping him as God and Christ [Rev 13:3-8] ...

for this men will suffer, because sin which satan teaches men as lord of all siners odes actually not work as a way of life, only love works...

So gd created evil because it is the only way to redeem all creation to himself in the end... men and Satan have to come to see that evil doesn't work and turn to love, else God has failed to be their god ...

God simply cannot fail at being the God of creation, so as Jesus says, all created beings will come to accept him as their lord, they will obey him and love and so cease to sin... but not all by his return, God's plan is beatiful and efficient in extreme and requires only 144,000 as priests in the kingdom at first, so all others are left in sin to death, freed from sin by death to start from spirit baptism to know all truth of God after the second resurrection...

As Jesus says, the many are thus saved AFTER the few [rev 7:9-10] thus the many who go through destruction at the ned of the earth are freed from sin by death, not by grace as the few saints are ...

and the sin of this earth is thus forgotten becuase men can live righteously in the new earth who were sinners in this earth, so not equiring a second death to free them again form sin in the new earth

2 Peter 3:13 But, new heavens, and a new earth, according to his promise, are we expecting, wherein, righteousness, is to dwell.

Romans 6:7 For, he that hath died, hath become righteously acquitted from his sin.

thus at the end of the ages , the end of time and space , the end of the second earth , every created being is in the third heaven because they accepted Jesus as Lord, ceased to sin, and so became acceptable to God for translation to spirit, and God used evil t acheive this out of love...

God then proves His love for all creation, redeems even His prodigal son, Satan, in the ned and proves to HIS GLORY hat not only does love work, but that all the ways Satan can devise and men follow do not work, that there is NO OTHER way than love...

Thus God is obliged as God to have created Satan and evil for sake of proving that He is the ONLY god of creation through the truth taht love is the only way of entering eternal existence [beyond time and space, timelessness of the spirit]

Thus the paradise of God , the third heaven, is beyond the two heevns and two earths , the final rest of all creation as one with God in the spirit ... there is no third earth then , no phtsical reality after God has proved both points about His law of love and eternal life ...

Jesus and the light show that love works, Satan and the darkness show that no other way works, BOTH are required by God to show creation that He is the only true god amingst many false ones that men have believed in and suffered the consequences of such belief by evil thus coming upon them... God could prevent the evil, but then He woulod not be God if He did ... the glory of God thuis depends upon His creating evil and it failing completely, failing to find any way but love of existing eternally ....

Thus the teachings and beliefs of many religions ammount to the denial of God , even those of mainline christianity ... it would be ironic I guess, were it not that God had prophesied it and Jesus had said it must happen ... evil will rule even the religion of the masses of this world according to Jesus [Rev 713:3-8], for sake of God's glory and created by Him for that reason ...

 

[squint]

"stranger" is presenting Satanic salvation.

There is NOT A SINGLE SCRIPTURE that provides the devil and his messengers "specifically" with salvation in any form, therefore that presentation is PATENTLY FALSE and should be revealed for what it is.

Now there are many so called "christian universalists" who present this message of SATANIC SALVATION, and y'all are warned that presentation is not TRUE.

If there were a single scripture that did say "specifically" that SATAN and his messengers would be "saved" I could believe it, but there IN NOT A ONE.

enjoy!

squint

 

[stranger]

"stranger" is presenting Satanic salvation.

There is NOT A SINGLE SCRIPTURE that provides the devil and his messengers "specifically" with salvation in any form, therefore that presentation is PATENTLY FALSE and should be revealed for what it is.

Now there are many so called "christian universalists" who present this message of SATANIC SALVATION, and y'all are warned that presentation is not TRUE.

If there were a single scripture that did say "specifically" that SATAN and his messengers would be "saved" I could believe it, but there IN NOT A ONE.

enjoy!

squint

Try reading the scripture again t see what IT says, not what you want to believe in anger :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

This is not only scripture, but that revealed by God the Father to Jesus and conveyed by the angel to John to write down ...

That Satan is in fact a created being was revealed to the prophet Ezekiel , Chapter 28 , that he is the covering cherub at the throne of God, that he walked up and down in the stones of fire, that he was in Eden [as the serpent] and that he was CREATED perfect ,but sin was found in him, the desire to be the god of men and angels , for which sin God will cast him into the earth as a man and he will be slain to show he has no power over his own death, that he is not a god at all, although almost all men follow him as sinners instead of following God in perfect love

So read Ezekiel 28 if you dare and learn what scripture actually says about Satan , not what his servsnts ,the sinners of this world and its religions, say ... then look at what Jesus says above and realise that Satan as a created being will accept Jesus as his Lord , according to Jesus' own witness ...

Thus yo are mistaken because you have not read and understood ALL the scripture , it is quite clear about ALL created beings coming to accept Jesus as Lord... and that Satan was created ...

So perhaps just read it again and see your mistake in listening to sinners, not reading the scripture ?

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here and am amazed and the extensiveness of the coverage of the forums.

Anyways, I just have a few questions.

1. Who created the supposedly evil serpent? I thought everything God created was good?

2. Why are we "punished" because of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God's order not to eat from the tree? Adam and Eve did not know what good and evil was prior to the eating of the fruit; ergo, even though they actually disobeyed God's order, they did not know it was wrong (to disobey God, that is). Eating the fruit was, for them, value neutral, similar to choosing to go east or west when wandering around Eden.

I'll be anticipating your insights. Thanks.

Hello

Welcome to Christian Forums.

Firstly, I what to point to a Sacred Scripture, which I hope you'll have the time to look up in an Exhastive Concordance. It covers the topic that The Evil One was cast OUT of Heaven and into the earth.

Secondly NOTHING is impossible with Our God and Father . . .




Revelation 1:18

[bible]Revelation 1:18[/bible]







I would like to point out that the"Serpent" did not eat of the Forbidden Fruit EVE is the cause of SIN entering the world:

Genesis 3:1-6

[bible]Genesis 3:1-6[/bible]






To Disobey GOD, is right up there with all the other sins, which carry a PUNISHMENT and not one which would be DISIPLINED:



Revelation 2:7

[bible]Revelation 2:7[/bible]





I hope these passages are helpful:


Revelation 2:11


[bible]Revelation 2:11[/bible]

 

[stranger]

To Disobey GOD, is right up there with all the other sins, which carry a PUNISHMENT and not one which would be DISIPLINED:

Eve was just as INNOCENT as Adam until AFTER she got the knowledge of good and evil... there is NO SIN without knowledge of the law... thus whilst it is a sin to disobey the law of love of God which ALL sinners do every day of our miserable lives, Adam and Eve are falsely accused of the 'original sin' by sinners ! They were both innoenet and God can never condemn them for it because they did not know good from evil until after they ate the 'fruit'...

Sin entered the world through them because they took the knowledge of good and evil in the fruit, so no man is now innocent in sinning, we all know we sin and cause our own death through it , but Adam and Eve are falsely accused by sinners, they did not sin on that occasion ... they brought sin on others through knowlegde, not through sin...

St Paul explains this in great detail, as is his way , I do not know why people ignore the saint and preach what sinners teach in its place...

 

[Kristos]

Awefully long answer for a simple question. So basically, you are saying the God could not redeem the world with out creation of "evil'?

 

[squint]

Try reading the scripture again t see what IT says, not what you want to believe in anger :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

This is not only scripture, but that revealed by God the Father to Jesus and conveyed by the angel to John to write down ...

That Satan is in fact a created being was revealed to the prophet Ezekiel , Chapter 28 , that he is the covering cherub at the throne of God, that he walked up and down in the stones of fire, that he was in Eden [as the serpent] and that he was CREATED perfect ,but sin was found in him, the desire to be the god of men and angels , for which sin God will cast him into the earth as a man and he will be slain to show he has no power over his own death, that he is not a god at all, although almost all men follow him as sinners instead of following God in perfect love

So read Ezekiel 28 if you dare and learn what scripture actually says about Satan , not what his servsnts ,the sinners of this world and its religions, say ... then look at what Jesus says above and realise that Satan as a created being will accept Jesus as his Lord , according to Jesus' own witness ...

Thus yo are mistaken because you have not read and understood ALL the scripture , it is quite clear about ALL created beings coming to accept Jesus as Lord... and that Satan was created ...

So perhaps just read it again and see your mistake in listening to sinners, not reading the scripture ?

My observation stands. There is NO SCRIPTURE that "specifically presents" SATANIC SALVATION.

An "anti-Christ" spirit can be "created" as an "anti-creation," and therefore still be both NOT created but anti-created and (thankfully) and simply a TEMPORAL POWER that will be PERMANENTLY SET ASIDE....

A PERFECT devil is still a devil nevertheless.

You christian universalists who present "satanic salvation" do so without ANY specific scripture, MEANING specifically stating SATAN and DEVILS shall be saved...

and there are no such scriptures save in your fantasy.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Awefully long answer for a simple question. So basically, you are saying the God could not redeem the world with out creation of "evil'?

All things serve The Maker of All things, whatsoever things that are BECAUSE He Is Greater than the sum of all things.

Evil is no exception to His Rule.

 

[stranger]

Exactly, God created it all, light and darkness... the light succeeds in convincing all creation to love through Jesus Christ, the darkness though first convices all the world [a a very few God needs as priests afterward to redeem th rest] that sin is the best way of life, and glorfies God by failing, showing god is not only right , but that no other way is right...

Thus God needs both Jesus and Satan to prove to craetion that He isthe only god, the one true God of all...

And if He failed to save all creation He would show He was not the one true god at all but that there was a basis for following Satan eternally ... clearly that cannot happen , God cannot not be God...

All creation then, including created Satan, must be saved in the end else God has failed to show that He is God ..

and indeed Jesus says that all will accept him as lord , so obeyting him in love to God and all men , and so be saved :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

God has both the will and the ability to save all men to the spirit, he just never has said that he will do it in this earth, quite the contrary. only few find the narrow strait way required of saints in this earth and the many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10]

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who can withsatnd the will of God to save all men, no-one , He has the means simply by being right and allowing all craetion to come to see that ...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

God has only to let men see that sin fails them and they will look to |Him in his ever-enduring mercy... it is not that hard for God to give Satan enough rope to hang himself, to give him the whole world to control and then show that His truth takes everyone back, proving that Satan is not the god of men at all [2Thess 2:4] ... so men must put up with Satan for lord for a while, trapped in sin until death releases them ... it is important than that God does this first , because it is only Satan who prevents men seeing God's truth ... living by love, not dying because of sin...