2 Questions

[Kristos]

Your God sounds very cruel. Even sadistic.

 

[stranger]

Your God sounds very cruel. Even sadistic.

Wouild you care to explain just one example of something upon which you think that ? Then we can perhaps discuss the scripture that shows me at leaat why what God is doing is in fact loving to all men , and relies on all men seeing that God is loving in the end ?

 

[Spade48d]

Hello stranger,

Re-translating the bible to say what one wants it to say is a common enough trick by sinners... but won't wash with God :-

How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

 

[stranger]

Hello stranger,



How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

Hi my friend,
Thank you for this.
...and yay, what a lot of desperate 'leaps of faith' into divided doctrines from sinners , from fear caused by tragic manipulation of words [which the bible warns against] ... so very hard to undo lifetime fears in many people of 'hell' and yet the scripture states that death has no sting any more ...

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word 'lord' has lost its meaning too to many people, they do not think that having Jesus ;as lord' means that one has to bey his command to love and cease to sin altogether ... the very foundation of God gets ignored because peole do not really have a conception of a 'lord' as requiring obedience , modern 'lords' get ignored by many people because they can buy their title, so men do not mostly understand that Jesus is not one's lord if one remains a sinner :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus at his return rejects all who are still sinners :-Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

St Paul explains it in deatil, but a billion christians still believe otherwise from their sinner priesthoods which are not of the same order as Jesus and the priests of the new covenant of Grace with the descendants of Israel's two kingdoms , those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We have siner priests leading ove a billion sinners in a false gospel about salvation of sinners, not of only saints... salvation in this life of many when the bible states there are but few and all 144,000 of them sealed from iniquity by knowing all God's truth [John 16:13]

It is fairly obvious that most men deie sinners not knowing all truth of God, but few seem to notice that and realise that these sinners at death could never have received spirit baptism in this life... one cannot even begin to perfect one's love until after spirit baptism, Satan is too strong a tempter for those who do not know all truth of God to defeat him in argument, as Jesus showed rthe way we must all do so eventually, but just a few first , many after this [Rev 7:9-10]...

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Again, Jesus states that countess any are saved later , in Rev 7:9-10,so how do men believe that many are saved now, when the scripture says how many are the first fruits , the royal priesthood of the order of Melchizedek [1peter 2:9-10] who will serve in the later salvation of the countless many ...

I do not understand how one confuses 'few' with 'inumerably many' jst to stay in lie with the mass of people following tradition... it is so very curious that men think they can change the scripture around and it will still work the way they changed it... how could it ?

Do you think Rotherham is truer to the Hebrew then? Which sources do you use ?

 

[Ben12]

Hello stranger,



How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

Amen

 

[Ben12]

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

Evil did not just pop up out of nowhere, entirely on it's own. If ANYTHING exists, it exists because of GOD.

God will take a great delight in putting EVIL away permanently when it is done SERVING HIM.

enjoy!

squint

Amen again

 

[armothe]

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

God bringing about the concept of wickedness is entirely different than God actively creating wickedness. Your verses, if translated as you see fit would make God wicked - in that he participates in creating evil/wickedness - thus wicked things originate from Him. I just can't possibly believe this to be true.

-A

 

[Spade48d]

Hello stranger,

Do you think Rotherham is truer to the Hebrew then? Which sources do you use ?

To tell you the truth, Rotherham can be difficult to understand sometimes. I like it because it I got hooked on the style. Who knows maybe I just like Yoda speak.

I actually use a free software called e-sword which has numerous translations and studies. I frequently use the compare function to see different translations. I also like the CLV and sometimes ESV in addition to Rotherham. Someone else just recently recommended NASB, ESV, NIV and NKJV to use together in study.

There are so many other internet bible cites that you should be able to find what you are looking for. I unfortunately don't have any links handy but perhaps a few of our forum friends will kick in some of their favorites.

I hope that helps.

spade

 

[squint]

God bringing about the concept of wickedness is entirely different than God actively creating wickedness.

hmmmm....NOPE. Same thing. Sorry.

The scripture cited prior says that God created and creates 'all things' SO you have to find out if there is an "exception" to "all things." I haven't found any yet.

Your verses, if translated as you see fit would make God wicked -

That's called an argument from an excluded middle, meaning there are numerous alternative responses to potentially view than what you see LIKE perhaps God Is Far Greater than the SUM of all wickedness?

in that he participates in creating evil/wickedness - thus wicked things originate from Him. I just can't possibly believe this to be true.

Gods retributional evil is a very well established presentation in the O.T. AND God also ORDAINED the death of His Own Son, so what can we do about that? It doesn't pay to stick ones head in the sand on these matters.

Perhaps moving God and His Intentions in ALL these matters to a FAR SURPASSING POSITION is more of a reasonable view in the light of our present reality.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Ben12]

Either God is God and is control of ALL things or He is not God.. Evil, wickedness, Satan are but tools to process and develop God's final results in a remnant in His earth; then He will deal with the remainder of mankind as well as His whole creation.

 

[armothe]

hmmmm....NOPE. Same thing. Sorry.

Isaiah 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (rah); I am the LORD who does all these.

The minute you translate 'rah' as 'wickedness' you make God a creator of wicked acts - in other words God is a sinner. Congratulations, you've just given birth to about a dozen different paradoxes that you're going to have to find a way to live with.

I am content believing the concept of evil/wickedness/sin indirectly originated with God but He has no part creating wickedness, tempting people and performing evil acts; although He does create ill-fortune and calamity in various aspects.

-A

 

[armothe]

Either God is God and is control of ALL things or He is not God.. Evil, wickedness, Satan are but tools to process and develop God's final results in a remnant in His earth; then He will deal with the remainder of mankind as well as His whole creation.

Just because God can't control whether or not I sin at any given time, doesn't mean He isn't God. However, if we argue that God does control when I sin, then He is ultimately responsible for my sin.

-A

 

[squint]

Isaiah 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (rah); I am the LORD who does all these.

The minute you translate 'rah' as 'wickedness' you make God a creator of wicked acts - in other words God is a sinner. Congratulations, you've just given birth to about a dozen different paradoxes that you're going to have to find a way to live with.

We should be at least able to deal with the scriptural "fact" of "retributive evil" that WAS executed by God in the O.T. God sent LYING SPIRITS to deceive, God cause ADULTERY to come into the household of David, etc.

God does not need our support in these matters of "fact" because they are "facts."

I am content believing the concept of evil/wickedness/sin indirectly originated with God but He has no part creating wickedness, tempting people and performing evil acts; although He does create ill-fortune and calamity in various aspects.

There is as Paul taught both a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor in the "same lump" and God obviously deals with these vessels in different manners. For example we know that God is not the "Author" of confusion, YET God confused the language of Babel eh? There is no logical way to dissect these scriptures without a fair understanding of "whom" God is dealing with in these events, and that is "why" those realities are placed before us in scriptures.

There is a pollyanna type God that is supported by peoples carvings, and then there is the real God who deals in the fashions that people don't want to see, because of that same vessel of dishonor that resides in all flesh.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Either God is God and is control of ALL things or He is not God.. Evil, wickedness, Satan are but tools to process and develop God's final results in a remnant in His earth; then He will deal with the remainder of mankind as well as His whole creation.

And Amen to that!

 

[Ben12]

Just because God can't control whether or not I sin at any given time, doesn't mean He isn't God. However, if we argue that God does control when I sin, then He is ultimately responsible for my sin.

-A

He is God

 

[armothe]

For example we know that God is not the "Author" of confusion, YET God confused the language of Babel eh?

Well, again, we are talking about two different kinds of confusion here. The confusion in Babylon was most definitely a calamity, the confusion as spoken by Paul in 1 Corinthians deals with the confusion those speaking/hearing tongue-speak dealt with as far as (mis)understanding the Gospel.

Again, I can accept that God allows for sin and uses Satan as an evil spirit to tempt mankind but I just can't accept that wickedness/evil/sin originates directly from God. That would seem to create more problems than it solves for me.

-A

 

[armothe]

He is God

'He is God' doesn't really answer the questions that have been asked here.

And from what I understand, God doesn't directly tempt anyone. Sin is a result from either our own desires, or Satan. I believe Reformist alluded to this in a previous post (or thread) to which I fully agree.

Because God is God, does that mean He can sin?

-A

 

[squint]

Well, again, we are talking about two different kinds of confusion here.

I agree...SO God is not the "Author" of confusion, YET God confused...there is the dividing line.

IF you have a sight of this matter you will see God dealing with both sides of the equation. Just as God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Those are physical examples of the reality of two different vessels that are in the same lump of every person. One God is adamantly against and measures retributive evil against, the other He loves. There is no other way around the facts as both vessels obtain a different measure from God.

The confusion in Babylon was most definitely a calamity, the confusion as spoken by Paul in 1 Corinthians deals with the confusion those speaking/hearing tongue-speak dealt with as far as (mis)understanding the Gospel.

The vessel's of dishonor that Paul identified in the SAME LUMP are and will remain confused on these matters, and that by Gods Own Intentions. Look at the "church" for the continuation of the confusion. It is awash in the seas of confusions and that's exactly what God did and keeps on showing to the vessels of dishonor and wrath.

Again, I can accept that God allows for sin and uses Satan as an evil spirit to tempt mankind

The vessel of honor is not meant for tempting, confusions, wrath, evil, etc. Those are ALL to the last jot and tittle of the LETTER meant for the vessels of dishonor and wrath.

but I just can't accept that wickedness/evil/sin originates directly from God.

God can make evil, use evil for His Intended Purposes, SWALLOW entirely every single act and action of evil, UTTERLY DESTROY the vessels of dishonor and wrath, USE that action for the Ultimate Good of His Intentions toward the vessels of HONOR.

Evil then is Gods servant in all these matters, and God Is and Remains Greater than the entire sum of it ALL.

That would seem to create more problems than it solves for me.

-A

God intentionally covers the vessels of honor with the vessels of dishonor and BLURS the lines so that WE as His Children must dig and reach to find the differences. This is no fault of Gods. I mean look, God Himself put a SPECIAL MESSENGER of SATAN upon Paul just to remind Paul of the TOTAL SUFFICIENCY of Gods Grace. Is God faulted in this? No. None of us are immune. Even David in the O.T. was identified as a "son of belial" and that also was for the purpose of Gods showing of the TWO vessels and how differently EACH of these vessels are dealt with.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Ben12]

I agree...SO God is not the "Author" of confusion, YET God confused...there is the dividing line.

IF you have a sight of this matter you will see God dealing with both sides of the equation. Just as God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Those are physical examples of the reality of two different vessels that are in the same lump of every person. One God is adamantly against and measures retributive evil against, the other He loves. There is no other way around the facts as both vessels obtain a different measure from God.



The vessel's of dishonor that Paul identified in the SAME LUMP are and will remain confused on these matters, and that by Gods Own Intentions. Look at the "church" for the continuation of the confusion. It is awash in the seas of confusions and that's exactly what God did and keeps on showing to the vessels of dishonor and wrath.



The vessel of honor is not meant for tempting, confusions, wrath, evil, etc. Those are ALL to the last jot and tittle of the LETTER meant for the vessels of dishonor and wrath.



God can make evil, use evil for His Intended Purposes, SWALLOW entirely every single act and action of evil, UTTERLY DESTROY the vessels of dishonor and wrath, USE that action for the Ultimate Good of His Intentions toward the vessels of HONOR.

Evil then is Gods servant in all these matters, and God Is and Remains Greater than the entire sum of it ALL.



God intentionally covers the vessels of honor with the vessels of dishonor and BLURS the lines so that WE as His Children must dig and reach to find the differences. This is no fault of Gods. I mean look, God Himself put a SPECIAL MESSENGER of SATAN upon Paul just to remind Paul of the TOTAL SUFFICIENCY of Gods Grace. Is God faulted in this? No. None of us are immune. Even David in the O.T. was identified as a "son of belial" and that also was for the purpose of Gods showing of the TWO vessels and how differently EACH of these vessels are dealt with.

enjoy!

squint

Amen; need I say more.

 

[stranger]

God bringing about the concept of wickedness is entirely different than God actively creating wickedness. Your verses, if translated as you see fit would make God wicked - in that he participates in creating evil/wickedness - thus wicked things originate from Him. I just can't possibly believe this to be true.

-A

You are forced to disbelieve much scripture then ? :-

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul...

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

I mean the problem is that there ain't much scripture left if one doesn't believe something as common as this idea in scripture , and scripture is almost the only witness we have that Jesus isn't a myth... that he ever even existed ...