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No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
That is apocalyptic language that's used.How about an audible return in that passage, and a visible return in the same event found in the Book of Revelation.
I've been doing that. Please support the assertions you've already made.Then please show us the texts which reveal what you believe about His Second Coming.
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You brought up Thessalonians, asserting that's the Lord's "visible return" - and that's what I was discussing. Where does is mention "His visible return" in Thessalonians? I believe you're bringing that presumption to the text.
Where do you get that from, then?Christ spoke of a visible return so others like Paul speak of the same thing.
Where do you get that from, then?
I edited my post.It is in the part of my post you didn't bother to put into quotes.
In Matthew 24 - I believe - they were to see His power as we see the power of the wind during hurricanes. That wasn't prophesying a visible sighting of Jesus that was to come.
Hello mkgal......here are the rest to them........I edited my post.
Jesus, Himself, as I already posted warned the early church of false prophets that would come (during their lifetimes) saying that Christ has come and was performing miracles. His warning was recorded in Matthew 24:23: At that time, if anyone says to you, ’Look, here is the Christ!’ or ’There He is,’ do not believe it.
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.Except the wording of the text proves you wrong: "they shall see the Son of man coming"
The text doesn't say they only saw "power" like wind...you are adding that concept onto the text which is called Eisegesis.
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.
ewq1938 said: ↑
Except the wording of the text proves you wrong: "they shall see the Son of man coming"
The text doesn't say they only saw "power" like wind...you are adding that concept onto the text which is called Eisegesis.
Hello mkgal.mkgal1 said: ↑
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.
Will every eye in the global world view this event literally?
I will be putting up commentaries on it as this thread progresses.
Discuss
Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall-be-seeing/oyetai <3700> (5695) Him Every eye/ofqalmoV <3788> , even who any Him they pierce<1574>.
And shall be wailing/grieving<2875> over Him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen.
[Jeremiah 4:13/Zechariah 12:10]
3700. optanomai , a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai op'-tom-ahee; which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708
to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a watching from a distance):--appear, look, see, shew self.
G3700 ὀπτάνομαι (optanomai) occurs 1 times in 1 verses
3788. ophthalmos from 3700;
the eye (literally or figuratively); by implication, vision; figuratively, envy (from the jealous side-glance):--eye, sight.
G3788 ὀφθαλμός (ophthalmos) occurs 100 times in 85 verses
Some derivatives of 3700:
3701. optasia from a presumed derivative of 3700; visuality, i.e. (concretely) an apparition:--vision.
3708. horao properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.
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Pulpit Commentary
Verses 7, 8. - It is difficult to determine the exact connexion of these verses with one another, and with what precedes and follows. It seems best to make ver. 7 a kind of appendix to the salutation, and ver. 8 a kind of prelude to the whole book. They each give us one of the fundamental thoughts of the Apocalypse; ver. 7, Christ's certain return to judgment; ver. 8, his perfect Divinity. Verse 7. - He cometh. He who loveth us and cleansed us and made us to be a kingdom will assuredly come. While interpreting the verse of the second advent, we need not exclude the coming to "those who pierced him" in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to "the tribes of the earth" in the breakup of the Roman empire. With the clouds. This probably refers to Mark 14:62, "Ye shall see the Son of man ... coming with the clouds of heaven" (comp. Daniel 7:13, "Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven"). Aquinas and other writers make the clouds symbolize the saints, "who rain by preaching, glisten by working miracles, are lifted up by refusing earthly things, fly by lofty contemplation." And they also; better, and all they who (οἵτινες) pierced him. This is strong evidence of common authorship between the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse.
(1) St. John alone mentions the piercing.
(2) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in quoting Zechariah 12:10, deserts the LXX. and follows the Masoretic Hebrew text. The LXX. softens down "pierced" into "insulted" (κάτωρχήσατο), "piercing" appearing a violent expression to use respecting men's treatment of Jehovah.
(3) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in translating from the Hebrew, uses the uncommon Greek word ἐκκεντᾷν. The reference here is to all those who "crucify the Son of God afresh," not merely to the Jews. In what follows the Revised Version is to be preferred: "and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him? The wording is similar to Matthew 24:30 and the LXX. of Zechariah 12:10. The mourning is that of beating the breast, not wailing, and it is "over him" (ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν). Even so, Amen. Ναί Αμήν, like "Abba, Father" (Mark 4:36; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6), combines a Hebrew word with its Greek equivalent (comp. 2 Corinthians 1:20).
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CONTINUED...................
Will the second coming of Christ entail a 5'5"-7" Jewish man (common male height of the time) appearing in the skies above Jerusalem that every man, woman, and child will witness across the whole globe?
Or did Jesus mean something else? How long did the disciples stare stedfastly into the clouds and empty skies in Acts 1:10? 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour or longer? The text only states stedfastly.
Please remember that Jesus ministered on earth during the Last Days - Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20
And He shed His blood and died for us on earth at the End of the Age - Hebrews 9:26
Were these the Last Days of the material universe? Or the Last Days of the Mosaic Covenant? Was this at the end of the world? Or the end of the Jewish Age?
Have the Last Days run for nearly 2,000 years now? Has the End of the Age run for nearly 2,000 years now?
Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.
Seeing the Son of Man
Those who pierced Jesus lived in the first century. This helps explain Revelation 1:7 where the same wording is used. Those who "see" Him are "those who pierced Him" (cf John 19:7). John is telling us that those who pierced Jesus experienced His covenant wrath. Revelation 1:7 must refer to a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment, before that generation passed away (Matthew 16:27-28; 24:34).
"Every eye, and those who pierced Him, shall see him" - The subject of the text is "the people of the land," viz. Judea; and it would be a direct misinterpretation, as well as false logic, to strain a term beyond its subject, by applying it to the final judgment of all. That all men shall see Him, we learn from other scriptures (2 Cor. V. 10); [the partial preterist writer of this piece has misinterpreted himself - see Hebrews 9:27] but we must deal faithfully with the text, and not force any word in order to make out a case. Truth never requires this. That the land of Judea, in the prophetic sense, is the subject, is evident from Zech. XII. 10; from which the words are taken, both here and in John XIX. 37.
"Those who pierced Him" are obviously those who had a hand in His death. The text declares that they shall see Him, employing for seeing the verb optomai, already noticed, as not limited to ocular seeing. Though those who pierced Him saw not His person after ascension, yet they saw His power bringing judgment on them, and making His cause prevail inspite of their persecution, and they speedily saw their kingdom terminated.
James Glasgow (1872)
Equating "seeing" with "understanding" is a common Biblical metaphor. In John 12:40 Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:10 to explain why some have not believed His message. Notice how "seeing" is equivalent to "understanding."
"Render the hearts of the people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and repent and be healed." Isaiah 6:10
In quoting Isaiah, Jesus states Yahweh "has blinded their eyes" (John 12:40). This is not a physical blinding. The blinding is spiritual. To be blind is not to understand; to see is to understand and believe. "To open their eyes" is an expression used by Biblical writers to describe recognition and understanding (Acts of the Apostles 26:18 cf 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 8:52; 2 Kings 2:16; 2 Kings 6:20; 2 Kings 19:16; Isaiah 35:5; Isaiah 42:7; Isaiah 42:16). The eyes of the disciples "were opened" by Jesus and "they recognized Him." (Luke 24:31) is another example of equating "seeing" with "understanding." David Chilton summarizes the text for us: "The crucifiers would see Him coming in judgment - that is, they would understand that His coming would mean wrath on the land (cf the use of the word "see" in Mark 1:44; Luke 17:22; John 3:36; Romans 15:21)."
David Chilton, Days of Vengeance
"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky, to the other." Matthew 24:31
Immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, God began to shake down the world (Matthew 24:29). The nations began to recognize Christ as King (24:30). In context, in verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the Gospel in the nations.
A Corporeal Return? Says Who?Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.
Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.
Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.
The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.
When we consider all the ways that the Parousia is prophesied, we see that he comes everywhere. Lightning lights up the sky all around. The nature of his coming may elude us until we grasp it in the context of scripture. The way that Jesus comes—on clouds of heaven, as a call from God, as lightning—cannot be manifested in flesh and blood. A man cannot come in these ways. Christ’s advent is rather a return in power and spirit that the Scriptures corroborate. How much more glorious and momentous an advent that would be than to come in the body of a man.
Think about that for a moment, about limitations imposed on flesh and blood, even Christ’s. When in the flesh, Jesus performed miracles and amazed the crowds around him, and even some who heard by word of mouth. His miracles impacted locally. If he were to be a man again, what would change? What would his impact be globally and for all time? Would he really effect a worldwide utopia? Of course not. Even a return in power and spirit would not effect such an “idyllic” world. John the Divine says the wicked still live on the earth despite the presence of the kingdom. God’s kingdom does not vanquish evil from the world. It confronts evil and challenges it, but wickedness still persists outside the gates.
So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows?
Certainly not from the Scriptures.
His visible return is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
Did this text occur during 70 AD?
First thing's first...
Did the Lord of the Vineyard "Come" and "Destroy those wicked men" in 70AD, and did the Chief Cornerstone at that time grind them to powder as written in Matt 21? or are you asserting something other than what was prophesied to happen to them in that passage, happen to them instead?
Where are you getting from the letters to the Thessalonians that Paul was writing to comfort the 1st century church with his message of a VISIBLE return of Christ? How would that offer them relief if it didn't happen in their lifetime?
Was Paul offering false hope or was that just a platitude to appease them?
What I deny is that the passage you're using as support for a physical Jesus sighting means that.There is a conflict because you deny a visible second coming while Christ says it will be visible.
No.Do you deny that we find both the Father and the Son in the passage below?
the Father, who "CAME" and Destroyed them Personally, according to the passage.Who is the owner of the land in the passage?
the SonWho is the "heir" to the land in the passage?
Yes.Is the Father found in verse 40?
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