2 major questions

[Al Touthentop]

Like confession? (public, not hidden away in a cupboard)

Confession and baptism are two different things.

So why then did Jesus send the HS to keep those of the Kingdom on the narrow path? Why do you think that would not apply through time to all those that He wants to help from falling to the wayside and be dragged down by the world of man, away from the Kingdom, back to thinking of self instead of others?

The Holy Spirit inspired authors to make account and that account, if we follow it, keeps us on the narrow path. This applies through time.

And Paul tells us that the outward manifestations - which came through the laying on of the apostles hands - were going to cease. The second century church fathers wrote about their witness to this ceasing. But the work of the Holy Spirit lives on through God's perfect, completed word.

 

[timothyu]

Confession and baptism are two different things.

Well you said baptism was for 'remission of past sins', so the two kind of collide.

But the work of the Holy Spirit lives on through God's perfect, completed word.

Convenient, but that is mocking the ability and purpose of the HS who was sent for a specific purpose. It wasn't retired to the vaults of the gentile religion as it would have some believe in order that they may become the new shepherds down a different path back into the world of man..

 

[Al Touthentop]

Well you said baptism was for 'remission of past sins', so the two kind of collide.

I didn't say it, the bible says baptism washes away sin.

Convenient, but that is mocking the ability and purpose of the HS who was sent for a specific purpose. It wasn't retired to the vaults of the gentile religion as it would have some believe in order that they may become the new shepherds down a different path back into the world of man..

If the Holy Spirit was 'retired' then the bible is just a dead letter and we can say that it wasn't the work of the Holy Spirit at all but merely men.

Paul said the physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit were going away. I believe him and second century bishops confirm that the gifts ceased. The purpose of those manifestations (healing, tongues, prophecy) were to confirm that the words were from God. Today, when we speak the words of God, there is no longer a need to prove that they're from God because they're written down and were proven authentic back then. Same situation as when the Holy Spirit inspired old testament prophets to write down what he'd told them.

What's mocking the Holy Spirit is to claim that what he inspired the new testament authors to write became superfluous and unimportant.

 

[timothyu]

What's mocking the Holy Spirit is to claim that what he inspired the new testament authors to write became superfluous and unimportant.

I'm not claiming that even though you would like to twist meanings, but am saying the HS serves an even greater personal purpose to those on the narrow path of the Kingdom. I'm sure many here who are Kingdom oriented, will agree it is a strong influence still that keeps us from getting re- tangled up in the ways of man.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I'm not claiming that even though you would like to twist meanings

The Holy Spirit inspired the authors to explain the importance of baptism. I'm not trying to twist meanings, I'm saying that minimizing it is counter to what he inspired them to write.

but am saying the HS serves an even greater personal purpose to those on the narrow path of the Kingdom. I'm sure many here who are Kingdom oriented, will agree it is a strong influence still that keeps us from getting re- tangled up in the ways of man.

It is an influence if we take the words and ponder their importance. If we ignore them, how can the Spirit influence our lives?

Paul explained that "walking in the word" and "letting the Spirit dwell in you richly" were the same thing. How we let the Spirit influence our lives is to digest the word and walk in it.

 

[timothyu]

How we let the Spirit influence our lives is to digest the word and walk in it.

Ok, your HS is on a scrap of paper. That is fine. Mine is inside me. That is also fine.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Ok, your HS is on a scrap of paper. That is fine. Mine is inside me. That is also fine.

He can't be inside you unless you do what Paul said to do in order for him to dwell in you.

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

That 'be filled' is a command. That doesn't mean we order the Spirit around, we do the things Paul said which causes us to be filled.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The spirit is in the word. You can scoff at that but this is what Paul said about the word of God.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Those words on paper is where you can find the living Spirit of God.

 

[timothyu]

speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

You will notice those things came outward from the HS, not inward

 

[Al Touthentop]

You will notice those things came outward from the HS, not inward

That's not what he writes there. He says that is HOW you are to accomplish what he's commanded. And it is the same list of things he gives them to do - by the way that list is way longer than just those bits quoted. Obey your parents, husbands love your wives, etc. etc.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You will notice those things came outward from the HS, not inward

Also note when Peter says we are given the Spirit. It is after obedience not before.

29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

 

[timothyu]

He says that is HOW you are to accomplish what he's commanded.

Yes by continually creating psalms and song anew compliments of the HS that glorify the kingdom of God in our speech with one another.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes by continually creating psalms and song anew compliments of the HS that glorify the kingdom of God in our speech with one another.

And obeying the commandments. And how do we know what those commandments are without the "scrap of paper?"

 

[timothyu]

And obeying the commandments. And how do we know what those commandments are without the "scrap of paper?"

That is a different ballgame than relying on the HS to only be evident on paper. Did Jesus or did the HS give us the commandments and the Gospel of the Kingdom? He was clear that the HS would help keep those of the Kingdom He taught on the right path. Guiding, not teaching.

 

[Al Touthentop]

That is a different ballgame than relying on the HS to only be evident on paper. Did Jesus or did the HS give us the commandments and the Gospel of the Kingdom? He was clear that the HS would help keep those of the Kingdom He taught on the right path. Guiding, not teaching.

And as part of that guidance, the Holy Spirit had authors write the words down. Nowhere does it say Christians in general were to be guided by the HS through personal, miraculous knowledge. That promise was made to his apostles. They passed on gifts through the laying on of hands and not everyone got the same gifts.

The bible is the culmination of the all the knowledge delivered through the Holy Spirit. And the personal knowledge was replaced with the scriptures as Paul states in 1 Corinthians.

In fact, the bible is better than what was given because Paul explains even knowledge was not complete in every person. The knowledge was partial. The bible is complete. We're getting more benefit of knowledge than church members who had some knowledge.

 

[timothyu]

And as part of that guidance, the Holy Spirit had authors write the words down.

I see where you are coming from. Their words, it's guidance.

Nowhere does it say Christians in general were to be guided by the HS through personal, miraculous knowledge.

I never said that either. Jesus said it was to help keep us on the narrow path of the Kingdom and help us not fall to the wayside as in the parable of the sower. (ru'ach -spirit) wind (to follow a recommended path) No miraculous knowledge needed to remind us man's self serving ways are bad, God's ways that serve others are good. The ways of the Kingdom.

 

[Thera]

Baptism is not itself a confession nor is it an outward sign as circumcision was. When you dry off, nobody can tell you did it, unlike circumcision.

This is a somewhat invalid analogy, unless you're talking about men in a nudist colony. Baptism is like circumcision, in that both are outward signs, but with both, people won't know unless they were there, or they are told.

 

[Al Touthentop]

This is a somewhat invalid analogy, unless you're talking about men in a nudist colony. Baptism is like circumcision, in that both are outward signs, but with both, people won't know unless they were there, or they are told.

It's not an outward sign. Circumcision is an outward sign. People aren't dropping their pants to prove it, but under the old Covenant, you were eventually going to open your garments to somebody. Paul writes that jealous Jews sent spies to peek. The old outward sign was important to them under the old covenant.

The idea that it is a "sign" rather than an effective cleansing of sin comes from 1 Peter where he says baptism is an 'antitype.' In Greek that word means the impression left by the stamp.

The 'type' was Noah's ark. The ark wasn't a spiritual event but it literally cleansed the world of all sinful flesh. Some preachers have used this to dismiss baptism's actual work saying "look, it's just a symbol," not actually thinking about what Peter was saying there and that he also said baptism, "now saves us."

Baptism is the very act of being born again as Paul explains in Romans 6.

 

[timothyu]

Baptism is the very act of being born again as Paul explains in Romans 6.

Spiritual baptism perhaps as that is a change of thinking, in this case casting off the will and governance of man for the will and governance of God.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Spiritual baptism perhaps as that is a change of thinking, in this case casting off the will and governance of man for the will and governance of God.

There is only one baptism as Paul wrote. Holy Spirit baptism happened twice in the new testament. It wasn't a command, it was a promise to his apostles. A person can't do anything to cause HS baptism to occur. It's Jesus only who can do that.

 

[timothyu]

A person can't do anything to cause HS baptism to occur.

Perhaps not but those are the results.