Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

[BobRyan]

You are totally skipping over the 1000 year reign on earth between Armageddon and the NHNE.

The saints are taken to heaven - 2 Thess 2, 1 Thess 4:13-18
and the wicked are all destroyed at the same rapture/second coming event (Rev 19)

Wicked all destroyed at second coming/Rapture Yesterday at 9:28 PM #48


So that leaves only "the desolate Earth" for the 1000 years

Desolate Earth during the Millennium

Many Bible speak of the Earth desolate - bodies cover the Earth, no stars, hills move to and fro, cities of earth all destroyed "I looked and there was no man" Jer 4. (non-SDAs have no point in time where Earth can be desolate like that)

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
=======================

Rev 19 says all the armies in rebellion against Christ are slain and "the REST" were killed by the sword that comes from His mouth (his Word puts them to death).

That is the second coming / Rapture event and leaves no wicked alive at all.

Rev 19:
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

========

And other texts tell us that all the saints raptured as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18

No, because there is Isaiah 65.

Does not delete the desolate earth texts because it refers to New Earth "“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;" Is 65:17 which is Rev 21:1-2 -- after the 1000 year millennium.

There is a resurrection in Revelation 20:4.

Which is before the 1000 years and is the resurrection that takes place at the Rev 19 coming of Christ where all the wicked are slain. The wicked are not raised until 1000 years later from that Rev 19 - Rev 20:4 event

There is no "1000 years to amass an army" because there are no wicked left alive from Rev 19 from which to raise the army. The army only comes up after the 1000 year with the resurrection of the wicked - which creates a massive army of the wicked.

The saints reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years with a rod of iron (meting out judgment to the wicked" who will be raised at the end of the 1000 years and then burned in the lake of fire according to the decisions rendered in judgment during that 1000 years.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes the 3 scriptures you quote do refer to the NH,NE.
But what you miss is how all those prophesies are mixed with earlier events, just as Isaiah 28:13 says: Prophecy is a little here, a little there.

Isaiah 65:18-25 goes on to describe the Millennium period. Proved by how people will still die then and they will build houses, etc.

Isaiah 66:22 is just a reference to to the eventual NH,NE. All the rest of that chapter is prophecy for before that comes.

2 Peter 3:13 is also the final Promise. He then says in verse 14-18: In expectation of this we must live righteously now.
But all of Peters prophecy before that is about the forthcoming Sixth Seal, the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath.

 

[keras]

The saints reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years

This cannot be right.
Jesus Returns to the earth and those worthy will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes the 3 scriptures you quote do refer to the NH,NE.
But what you miss is how all those prophesies are mixed with earlier events, just as Isaiah 28:13 says: Prophecy is a little here, a little there.

Isaiah 65:18-25 goes on to describe the Millennium period. Proved by how people will still die then and they will build houses, etc.

Isaiah 66:22 is just a reference to to the eventual NH,NE. All the rest of that chapter is prophecy for before that comes.

2 Peter 3:13 is also the final Promise. He says in verse 14-18: In expectation of all this we must live righteously now.
But all of Peters prophecy before that is about the forthcoming Sixth Seal, the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath.

Naturally, you would try to start a debate over what I said even though all I was doing was showing that he was wrong in saying that no other scripture besides Revelation 21 talks about the new heavens and new earth. I showed otherwise and that's all I intended to do. I have no desire to debate the meaning of those passages with you in this thread since it's not what this thread is about. Feel free to start a new one if you want and we can discuss them there.

 

[BobRyan]

This cannot be right.
Jesus Returns to the earth and those worthy will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21

Not according to John 14:1-3 and Matt 24 and 1 thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2. In those chapters Jesus "comes again" - at his appearing, and gathers the saints to himself -- to take them to His father's house where he has prepared a place for them. Rev 19 says he then destroys all the wicked left on Earth.

The OT includes several texts dealing with a future for Israel who did not reject the Messiah and how that would lead to a very different Earthly experience where we have wicked on Earth and yet Christ is ruling. That scenario did not happen. So now the future is that Christ rules in the New Earth where there will be no wicked at all (which was the same end-point for both future scenarios regardless of which way Israel ultimately decided to go)

 

[Jamdoc]

That's nonsense. Just because I interpret things differently than you doesn't mean I'm disregarding it. And I don't interpret everything with symbols. I don't appreciate your false allegations.

You disregard comparisons between old testament and new testament scripture and interpret the details that match them as unconnected symbols.
It's impossible to even debate if you just toss out details and say "that's a symbol"

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not according to John 14:1-3 and Matt 24 and 1 thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2. In those chapters Jesus "comes again" - at his appearing, and gathers the saints to himself -- to take them to His father's house where he has prepared a place for them. Rev 19 says he then destroys all the wicked left on Earth.

While I agree that He will gather His saints to Himself and that He will then destroy all the wicked left on earth at that time, it doesn't say that He takes them to heaven at that point. It says we will be where He is. Where will we be meeting Him? According to Paul, it will be "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). We will be with Him where He is at that point, so we clearly don't need to be in heaven in order to be where He is. Why would we meet Him "in the air" if He's just going to turn around and take us to heaven after that? Why wouldn't we just be taken straight to heaven to meet Him there instead?

If all believers are caught up to Christ at His coming and all the wicked are destroyed at His coming, which I agree that they will be, then what do you make of Revelation 20:7-9? In your view who are the ones on earth that come against "the camp of the saints" after the thousand years and are destroyed by fire that comes down from heaven?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You disregard comparisons between old testament and new testament scripture and interpret the details that match them as unconnected symbols.
It's impossible to even debate if you just toss out details and say "that's a symbol"

I'm not tossing anything out. Stop the ridiculous rhetoric already. You act as if there isn't any symbolism in prophecy even though there obviously is, as everyone knows. Except you, I guess? But, I doubt you are looking out for a literal seven-headed, ten-horned beast, so even you don't interpret everything literally. Even though you act like interpreting something symbolically is a case of ignoring it.

The fact is that you don't interpret everything literally and I don't interpret everything as symbols. We each interpret some things literally and some symbolically. Obviously, you interpret more things literally than I do, but what it comes down to is that we just disagree a lot on what's literal and what's symbolic. So be it.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not tossing anything out. Stop the ridiculous rhetoric already. You act as if there isn't any symbolism in prophecy even though there obviously is, as everyone knows. Except you, I guess? But, I doubt you are looking out for a literal seven-headed, ten-horned beast, so even you don't interpret everything literally. Even though you act like interpreting something symbolically is a case of ignoring it.

The fact is that you don't interpret everything literally and I don't interpret everything as symbols. We each interpret some things literally and some symbolically. Obviously, you interpret more things literally than I do, but what it comes down to is that we just disagree a lot on what's literal and what's symbolic. So be it.

The beast is explained as a symbol.
my guidance for whether something is a symbol or not is that it is explained that it is a symbol within the context of it being presented, such as the beast, an angel actually explains the symbol... or it matches a symbol explained as a symbol somewhere else, such as in old testament.
if it's not explained as a symbol, and it's not a reference to an old testament verse where it's explained as a symbol, then I take it that God means what He says there. I don't assume symbol.
You do.

I compared Revelation 19 to Isaiah 63, how the clothes are dipped in blood and Jesus is going to battle in both cases.
You threw it out interpreting them to have nothing to do with each other and tossing out the common detail, as a symbol.
There's just no point if you throw away details as just being symbols.
The time of day being evening in the light in Zechariah 14, you've tossed that out too.

It's apparently inconvenient when old testament scripture and new testament scripture match but the old testament gives details that don't match your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The beast is explained as a symbol.
my guidance for whether something is a symbol or not is that it is explained that it is a symbol within the context of it being presented, such as the beast, an angel actually explains the symbol... or it matches a symbol explained as a symbol somewhere else, such as in old testament.
if it's not explained as a symbol, and it's not a reference to an old testament verse where it's explained as a symbol, then I take it that God means what He says there. I don't assume symbol.
You do.

No, I don't assume that. Stop your false accusations. I try to interpret any given verse or passage based on the context while keeping in mind other scripture and being careful not to contradict any other scripture. I don't assume any given verse or passage is either literal or symbolic.

I compared Revelation 19 to Isaiah 63, how the clothes are dipped in blood and Jesus is going to battle in both cases.
You threw it out interpreting them to have nothing to do with each other and tossing out the common detail, as a symbol.

I'm not throwing anything out! Stop your false accusations already! I'm interpreting those passages differently than you. I believe they are speaking of the same event while you see them as 2 different events. If Jesus is going to take out His wrath on people multiple times then why is there no indication of such a thing in the Olivet Discourse or in Paul or Peter's writings? Do you have any answer for that? Those all only speak of Jesus taking out His wrath on all unbelievers at His second coming. No indication at all of Him taking out His wrath on some people one time, and some other people another time.

There's just no point if you throw away details as just being symbols.

I'm not doing that. Interpreting something symbolically is not a case of throwing away details. Stop being so ridiculous. Should I say that about you whenever you interpret something symbolically?

The time of day being evening in the light in Zechariah 14, you've tossed that out too.

Is it better to think that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the future, which is what you must believe if you think Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled in the future?

It's apparently inconvenient when old testament scripture and new testament scripture match but the old testament gives details that don't match your doctrine.

It's apparently inconvenient to you when there is scripture, such as 2 Peter 3:3-13, which does not match up at all with your doctrine. I guess I should just accuse you of throwing passages like that away? I'd love to see you try to reconcile your doctrine with a passage like that.

 

[BobRyan]

While I agree that He will gather His saints to Himself and that He will then destroy all the wicked left on earth at that time, it doesn't say that He takes them to heaven at that point. It says we will be where He is. Where will we be meeting Him?

In the air - the angels gather the saints who are "in the air" -- "from one end of the sky to the other" Matt 24.

Jesus said "the place" He is preparing for us in not here - but rather in heaven - where He went.

“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

The focus is on the dwelling places, the rooms - in the Father's house - the place WHERE Jesus went - where He prepares a place for us.

Matt 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, I don't assume that. Stop your false accusations. I try to interpret any given verse or passage based on the context while keeping in mind other scripture and being careful not to contradict any other scripture. I don't assume any given verse or passage is either literal or symbolic.

I'm not throwing anything out! Stop your false accusations already! I'm interpreting those passages differently than you. I believe they are speaking of the same event while you see them as 2 different events. If Jesus is going to take out His wrath on people multiple times then why is there no indication of such a thing in the Olivet Discourse or in Paul or Peter's writings? Do you have any answer for that? Those all only speak of Jesus taking out His wrath on all unbelievers at His second coming. No indication at all of Him taking out His wrath on some people one time, and some other people another time.

Actually I did have Isaiah 63 and Revelation 19 as being the same thing.
But the detail you don't seem to recollect is that in Isaiah 63, Jesus is coming from Edom, not Heaven.

I'm not doing that. Interpreting something symbolically is not a case of throwing away details. Stop being so ridiculous. Should I say that about you whenever you interpret something symbolically?

I interpret things symbolically when they're presented as a symbol, like the beast, or the woman in Revelation 12 (referring back to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37)

Is it better to think that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the future, which is what you must believe if you think Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled in the future?

In general it's better to assume the Lord means what He says rather than assume symbol because the literal is inconvenient. If it is a symbol for sure, it's explained as such.

It's apparently inconvenient to you when there is scripture, such as 2 Peter 3:3-13, which does not match up at all with your doctrine. I guess I should just accuse you of throwing passages like that away? I'd love to see you try to reconcile your doctrine with a passage like that.

It's not inconvenient at all when you see the second coming as not an instantaneous 1 time event but rather a complex series of events fire purging the earth is just what I see at the end of the Millennium in Revelation 20.
I don't see global fire purging the earth at Revelation 6, 11, 14, 16, or 19.
But rather Revelation 20:9
fire devours the last rebellion, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire... next event is GWT of Judgement.
there's your elements melting away.
I don't see it in the other passages because things continue to happen on earth after them.
6th seal is followed by 7th seal and 7 trumpets one of which takes 5 months
Revelation 19 is followed by vultures gorging themselves on all the slain, can't do much gorging if the world is on fire.

 

[BobRyan]

While I agree that He will gather His saints to Himself and that He will then destroy all the wicked left on earth at that time, it doesn't say that He takes them to heaven at that point. It says we will be where He is.

John 14:1-3 says we are taken to heaven. To the dwelling places "in my Father's house" which is the place where Jesus went.


John 14:1-3
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Matt 5:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Cor 5: 1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise.

Heb 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Heb 12:
20 For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,




1 Cor 15:
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

== Paradise is in heaven

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise.

2 Cor 12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not beneficial; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Rev 2:6 But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.’

Paradise has the Tree of Life - and the Tree of Life is where the Throne of God is

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Timtofly]

It does appear that the NHNE follow the GWT. I get that. It also appears, for example, some of Isaiah 60, that that involves the time of the NHNE, yet, in that same context there is verse 12.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


If this is meaning during the NHNE, and that the NHNE has to follow the GWT, how then is it reasonable that Isaiah 60:12 is applicable after the time of the GWT?

The reason I tend to think some of Isaiah 60 involves the time of the NHNE, consider the following below and then let's compare to something in Revelation 21.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Compared with---

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought----And the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it---- And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day---- And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Because the most important change is before the Millennium. There is still death, even though Jerusalem will be at peace and open for all to enter. There will still be nations after the NHNE, but not Death itself.

What changes before the Millennium is the removal of sin and a sin nature. They will have incorruptible bodies that cannot die or decay. However in the Millennium there is still free will, but instead of like now, the nature will not sin naturally. If an individual brakes a law, it will be death, because death is the immediate consequence of braking a law. It will be Jesus Christ keeping the reign tight, not fallen humans. If a nation fails to comply, the nation will be judged as a nation.


In the NHNE death will not exist at all. We will not know good and evil like we do now. The former knowledge will cease. We have no ability to even comprehend what that will be like, because we cannot remove the knowledge of good and evil to experience such a reality.

But there will still be nations and people on earth, who did not rebel at the end of the Millennium and who were not consumed by fire.

 

[Timtofly]

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What were you saying again?

This earth is going to go through the fire. The universe that you all think is huge is not, and the angels (all the stars) are coming to remove souls from physical bodies. That happens in the 6th Seal. Then there are 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet. Then if any souls are left, there will be 42 months of desolation with the two witnesses being a pain in the neck of any one left alive. Some will be beheaded. Armageddon is at the end of this 42 months. So yes, after Armageddon there is a new heaven and earth. Jesus could just snap His fingers and done.

Only after 1000 years will current reality pass away, leaving only the GWT.

So point out in the Olivet Discourse where only the GWT remains. Because even the end is only after the gospel goes out to all the earth, and that has happened many times. Yet the end itself has not happened.

No where in the OD is Armageddon mentioned either. So if there is no Armageddon, there are no vials and no Revelation 15-19. The 7th Trumpet last for one week of days, and then the Millennium starts. Only after the 1000 years will heaven and earth flee from the GWT.

God could create a heaven and earth several times before the GWT. It still would not be the NHNE after the GWT. No where in the OD is the GWT followed by the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

You see Revelation 19 as an unnecessary return? I truly cannot even believe some of the things that you say. Are you for real?

Yes, I think the church should repent and reap a golden harvest. Is being an idealist mean we should watch humanity become reprobate and sell their souls to Satan?

Was Nineveh destroyed in 40 days, as promised? Was Jonah just a lying false prophet? Was God going to force them to repent, to spare their lives.

The church could change the course of history, and spare the souls of billions. God could be welcoming billions into Paradise, not coming to destroy humanity. Where is your faith in the Salvation of the Gospel?

Have you just given up and expect God to send all to the Lake of Fire, because God can? Do you accept limited Atonement?

I am for real, and do not want to see any one perish. And I will keep pointing out the church can repent up until the 6th Seal. Then the church will have no more say in the matter.

 

[Timtofly]

on the contrary I accept that Rev 11, 12 and 13 all speak of the 1260 years of dark ages. (time time and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days) is all the same period of time and uses the same Dan 7,8,9 apocalyptic time rule of "day for year"

No hundreds of years involved in the 7th Trumpet as you interpret those chapters. Chapter 13 splits the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. If you have the second coming and 7th Trumpet as the start of the dark ages, you are going to have to show proof, all the angels came to earth for the final harvest in the historical record.

The 5th and 6th Seal event is still future. All the Trumpets are still future. What do you think is future, as this is a futurist only thread.

 

[Timtofly]

The saints are taken to heaven - 2 Thess 2, 1 Thess 4:13-18
and the wicked are all destroyed at the same rapture/second coming event (Rev 19)

Wicked all destroyed at second coming/Rapture Yesterday at 9:28 PM #48


So that leaves only "the desolate Earth" for the 1000 years

Desolate Earth during the Millennium

Many Bible speak of the Earth desolate - bodies cover the Earth, no stars, hills move to and fro, cities of earth all destroyed "I looked and there was no man" Jer 4. (non-SDAs have no point in time where Earth can be desolate like that)

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
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Rev 19 says all the armies in rebellion against Christ are slain and "the REST" were killed by the sword that comes from His mouth (his Word puts them to death).

That is the second coming / Rapture event and leaves no wicked alive at all.

Rev 19:
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

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And other texts tell us that all the saints raptured as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18



Does not delete the desolate earth texts because it refers to New Earth "“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;" Is 65:17 which is Rev 21:1-2 -- after the 1000 year millennium.



Which is before the 1000 years and is the resurrection that takes place at the Rev 19 coming of Christ where all the wicked are slain. The wicked are not raised until 1000 years later from that Rev 19 - Rev 20:4 event

There is no "1000 years to amass an army" because there are no wicked left alive from Rev 19 from which to raise the army. The army only comes up after the 1000 year with the resurrection of the wicked - which creates a massive army of the wicked.

The saints reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years with a rod of iron (meting out judgment to the wicked" who will be raised at the end of the 1000 years and then burned in the lake of fire according to the decisions rendered in judgment during that 1000 years.

All this desolation is only in the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13. Satan is the Steward of the vineyard if this 42 months even happens. You know that all prophecy does not have to be fulfilled.

Nineveh was not destroyed in 40 days, because they repented, and God spared their lives.

Revelation 20 does not say a single thing about desolation on the earth. In fact, it is so fertile, billions of humans are born, more than can be numbered as the sand of the seashore. And then many more, because not all humanity rebels at the end.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the air - the angels gather the saints who are "in the air" -- "from one end of the sky to the other" Matt 24.

Jesus said "the place" He is preparing for us in not here - but rather in heaven - where He went.

“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

The focus is on the dwelling places, the rooms - in the Father's house - the place WHERE Jesus went - where He prepares a place for us.

Matt 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

What is the reason that we would meet Him "in the air" (which is not heaven) only to then go to heaven after that? Why would we not just be caught up to meet Him in heaven instead of meeting Him "in the air" first?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Actually I did have Isaiah 63 and Revelation 19 as being the same thing.
But the detail you don't seem to recollect is that in Isaiah 63, Jesus is coming from Edom, not Heaven.

We need to give precedence to New Testament scripture in cases like this. Isaiah wrote in a way that his readers could understand at the time. The New Testament scriptures show the bigger picture and the reality of the situation, which is that Jesus will be coming from heaven.

Similarly, if we didn't know any better, we could easily think that Isaiah's description of the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:17-25 contradicts John's description in Revelation 21. But, again, Isaiah wrote about it in a way his readers could understand at the time while John gave the big picture and the fuller revelation.

I interpret things symbolically when they're presented as a symbol, like the beast, or the woman in Revelation 12 (referring back to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37)

Where does it specifically indicate that the woman is a symbol? I know she is symbolic, but it doesn't specifically say so anywhere. So, using your own rule you're describing here, you should be interpreting the woman in Revelation 12 to be a literal woman.

In general it's better to assume the Lord means what He says rather than assume symbol because the literal is inconvenient. If it is a symbol for sure, it's explained as such.

Says you. Scripture itself does not support that approach. Scripture itself indicates that scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:9-14). If everything that isn't spelled out as being symbolic is literal, then why would any spiritual discernment be required? Do you think the references in the book of Revelation to the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth is literal? I guess you probably do since it doesn't specifically tell us it's symbolic.

It's not inconvenient at all when you see the second coming as not an instantaneous 1 time event but rather a complex series of events fire purging the earth is just what I see at the end of the Millennium in Revelation 20.
I don't see global fire purging the earth at Revelation 6, 11, 14, 16, or 19.
But rather Revelation 20:9
fire devours the last rebellion, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire... next event is GWT of Judgement.
there's your elements melting away.
I don't see it in the other passages because things continue to happen on earth after them.
6th seal is followed by 7th seal and 7 trumpets one of which takes 5 months
Revelation 19 is followed by vultures gorging themselves on all the slain, can't do much gorging if the world is on fire.

The description of the vultures gorging themselves isn't any more literal than the sword coming out of Christ's mouth. 2 Peter 3 is very straightforward unlike the book of Revelation which undeniably contains a lot of symbolism (not all of it is symbolic, but a lot of it is), so your default shouldn't be to read everything literally.