1Cor2:14 is not "Calvinistic"

[Charis kai Dunamis]

However, the kingdom of God is NOT salvation, i.e., redemption and believing on Christ. It's more. Therefore, your paraphrase is wrong. Was that a translation you read from? . . .throw it away.

Was that a translation?

Um. As far as I know, that is usually what everyone reads from??? Unless you are fluent in first century koine...

I like this reasoning-

"The kingdom of God is NOT salvation, i.e., redemption and believing on Christ. It's more.

Therefore,

your paraphrase is wrong."

I like how a simple statement from you with no reasoning whatsoever is the proof that I am wrong.

It's just as strong as me saying,

"Yes, the kingdom of God is salvation.

Therefore,

you are wrong."

What kind of discussion would that be?

If you wish to challenge my interpretation then do so with a bit of thought. Don't just throw your opinions at me with nothing behind them whatsoever.

 

[Ormly]

Was that a translation?

Um. As far as I know, that is usually what everyone reads from??? Unless you are fluent in first century koine...

I like this reasoning-



I like how a simple statement from you with no reasoning whatsoever is the proof that I am wrong.

It's just as strong as me saying,

"Yes, the kingdom of God is salvation.

Therefore,

you are wrong."

What kind of discussion would that be?

If you wish to challenge my interpretation then do so with a bit of thought. Don't just throw your opinions at me with nothing behind them whatsoever.

I gave you the Bible and you rejected it. Why should I presume to do better than that? I leave you to your folly.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I gave you the Bible and you rejected it. Why should I presume to do better than that? I leave you to your folly.

You gave me nothing but your opinion. I quoted the very verse and you told me it was wrong. Here-

ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ

How's that?

 

[drstevej]

ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ

How's that?

Did you translate that from the original KJV ???



*someone boosted Jesusfreak's reps a ton!*

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Did you translate that from the original KJV ???



*someone boosted Jesusfreak's reps a ton!*

Thanks man...

Textus Receptus - I use Kittle's theological dictionaries to aid in my translations...

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

This is a blatant mis-representation of the words of Jesus. . . . in any language. .. .it's a lie.

How's that?

ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ

ἀμὴν ἀμὴν (trans. amen, amen)
"truly, truly" or "verily, verily"

λέγω (trans. lego)
to say, to speak
affirm over, maintain
to teach

σοι ἐάν (trans. soy ean)
to you-
if, in case

μή (trans. me)
no, not lest

τις (trans. tis)
a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

γεννάω (trans. genna&#333
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children

ἄνωθεν (trans. anōthen)
from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again

οὐ (trans. ou)
no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

δύναμαι (trans. dynamai)
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
to be able to do something
to be capable, strong and powerful

ὁράω / ἰδεῖν (trans. hora&#333
to see with the eyes
to see with the mind, to perceive, know
to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
to see, to look to
to take heed, beware
to care for, pay heed to
I was seen, showed myself, appeared

τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ (trans. ten basileia tou theos)

royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity
Christ, the second person of the trinity
Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

So, quite literally-

truly, truly I affirm over to you-
if, in case a certain one is not to be born anew,
[he is] not capable of a state of mind to perceive or know
the royal kingship and dominion of God.

Now tell me this is a bad translation, and that it doesn't prove my point. Go ahead...

 

[heymikey80]

Interesting.
Good insight. I hadn't thought about dunamis in terms of the ability to see / comprehend 'til you mention it.

 

[Ormly]

truly, truly I affirm over to you-
if, in case a certain one is not to be born anew,
[he is] not capable of a state of mind to perceive or know
the royal kingship and dominion of God.

Now tell me this is a bad translation, and that it doesn't prove my point. Go ahead...

If you had written that we would have no argument. But alas and Alac, you wrote something that was false.

 

[Ormly]

truly, truly I affirm over to you-
if, in case a certain one is not to be born anew,
[he is] not capable of a state of mind to perceive or know
the royal kingship and dominion of God.

Now tell me this is a bad translation, and that it doesn't prove my point. Go ahead...

Being the Pentecostal I am, if you had written that we would have no argument. But alas and Alac, you wrote something that was false.

I would venture a guess that you don't even understand what you have now 'quoted'; the depth of it all.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Being the Pentecostal I am, if you had written that we would have no argument. But alas and Alac, you wrote something that was false.

What I wrote was a paraphrase of this (which I clearly stated). The idea is exactly the same - one must be regenerated first. That is what this thread is about, is it not?

 

[Ormly]

What I wrote was a paraphrase of this (which I clearly stated). The idea is exactly the same - one must be regenerated first. That is what this thread is about, is it not?

Your paraphrase "stunk". YOUR "idea" isn't even a similitude. It is a false "notion" to support what is false. Regeneration is NOT necessary for salvation but for son-ship. Know anything about son-ship?

Faith in God, unto righteousness, brings justification. The Blood of Jesus Christ made the peace for RIGHTEOUS. JESUS DIDN'T COME TO SAVE THE RIGHTEOUS, REMEMBER? NEED THE SCRIPTURE FOR THAT or are you able to look it up? Maybe write it out in Greek and it will be more clear to you. . . . and you will remember it.

 

[drstevej]

Regeneration is NOT necessary for salvation

Ormly, know any saved folks who are unregenerate?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Your paraphrase "stunk". YOUR "idea" isn't even a similitude. It is a false "notion" to support what is false. Regeneration is NOT necessary for salvation but for son-ship. Know anything about son-ship?

Faith in God, unto righteousness, brings justification. The Blood of Jesus Christ made the peace for RIGHTEOUS. JESUS DIDN'T COME TO SAVE THE RIGHTEOUS, REMEMBER? NEED THE SCRIPTURE FOR THAT or are you able to look it up? Maybe write it out in Greek and it will be more clear to you. . . . and you will remember it.

Tell me. How are you "saved" and not part of the family of God?

At the moment you are justified you are adopted as a son-

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

This is addressed the the Ephesian church, in which Paul tells them that they (all), who were predestined, are adopted as sons.

Therefore if you must be regenerated to be "capable of a state of mind to perceive or know" anything about sonship, then you must be regenerated to be saved as well. All who are saved are sons. If we weren't, we would not address God as our Father, and we would not be addressed as Christ's brethren.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

 

[Rick Otto]

ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ

ἀμὴν ἀμὴν (trans. amen, amen)
"truly, truly" or "verily, verily"

λέγω (trans. lego)
to say, to speak
affirm over, maintain
to teach

σοι ἐάν (trans. soy ean)
to you-
if, in case

μή (trans. me)
no, not lest

τις (trans. tis)
a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

γεννάω (trans. genna&#333
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children

ἄνωθεν (trans. anōthen)
from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again

οὐ (trans. ou)
no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

δύναμαι (trans. dynamai)
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
to be able to do something
to be capable, strong and powerful

ὁράω / ἰδεῖν (trans. hora&#333
to see with the eyes
to see with the mind, to perceive, know
to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
to see, to look to
to take heed, beware
to care for, pay heed to
I was seen, showed myself, appeared

τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ (trans. ten basileia tou theos)

royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity
Christ, the second person of the trinity
Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

So, quite literally-

truly, truly I affirm over to you-
if, in case a certain one is not to be born anew,
[he is] not capable of a state of mind to perceive or know
the royal kingship and dominion of God.

Now tell me this is a bad translation, and that it doesn't prove my point. Go ahead...

Looks like Ormly is the one rejecting the Bible here.
And it's plain enough for even an unregenerate to see.
Maybe he's using an Arminian hard drive or VDT or something.

 

[Rick Otto]

Know anything about son-ship?

Not only do we know about that, we are very familiar with redefinition & confusion of terms as well as ego centricity & Pelagian fantasies of self-redemption.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly, know any saved folks who are unregenerate?

I know a lot of saved folk I would say are not unregenerate. I might include you in that group. Here's why: When regenerated the very Nature of the Father, as Jesus lived FROM, is imputed. I don't read that evidence in your understanding and/or the lives I know personally being there is very little of evidence of the great commandment in the exercise of their daily life. That is why Paul said to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

If the Nature of God is the yardstick by which we are to measure ourselves, then understanding His Nature should be undertaken and embraced to learn His Character which is what being up against the yardstick will reveal. I believe your side of the aisle takes too much for granted and presumes upon that which you don''t possess.

 

[heymikey80]

Ormly, know any saved folks who are unregenerate?

Good question. I had the same thought.

I think Ormly's expressing the idea of a "higher bar" scheme of Christian experience.

Yeah, now that I read his follow-on, that's what I'm seeing. Ormly, got Scripture for the imputation of the Father's ... what's imputed from the Father, again? You're saying we're considered to have God the Father's nature attributed to us?

Yeah, I really think I need Scripture asserting that. I mean, ultimately our glorification will give us Christ's righteousness and His Resurrection Body. But God the Father's nature, that's a new one on me.

Regeneration precedes justification.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The kingdom of God, being salvation, must be understood in a spiritual light. It is not a physical place;

Luk 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here {it is!}' or, 'There {it is!}' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Therefore, the verse must read like this:

Paraphrasing - Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is regenerated he cannot see salvation."

I think the original makes the point.

Your paraphrase rocks. Your idea is an update for modern language. It's a factual notion to support what's actually stated by Jesus. Regeneration IS necessary for salvation AND for sonship.

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal 4:6-7
​

JESUS DIDN'T COME TO SAVE THE RIGHTEOUS, REMEMBER? NEED THE SCRIPTURE FOR THAT or are you able to look it up? Maybe write it out in Greek and it will be more clear to you. . . . and you will remember it.

Jesus came to save sinners, right? Not people who thought themselves sinless, that is, righteous under the law.

This verse just doesn't seem to be a problem for the theology. None of us is declared righteous without Christ anyway.

Christ's union with us, leads the Father to declare us just. God's Spirit bears us spiritually, bringing us to faith and union with Christ.

(Just for the record, "Before Abraham was, I am." Christ didn't seem to have a problem with jumping across the dispensational line, making promises and then keeping them.)

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I know a lot of saved folk I would say are not unregenerate. I might include you in that group.

Let's go back to 2nd grade english:

2 NEGATIVES make a POSITIVE.

So your statement reads like this:

I know a lot of saved folk I would say are regenerate. I might include you in that group.

To not be unregenerate is to be regenerate.

It's a good thing you know a lot of people like that!

 

[nobdysfool]

Promoting a 2-tier system of salvation is dangerous, and ultimately feeds the ego, which is the exact opposite of what the idea of "death to self" (so-called) should be. I think we can see quite clearly such an attitude being presented here, especially in the replies intimating that others don't have the requisite "knowledge" or "understanding" or "revelation" to see as another sees.

What we're seeing here is a subtle form of Gnosticism. There is truly nothing new under the sun, even the old heresies get recycled....PT Barnum didn't realize the spiritual applications of his famous saying, "There's a sucker born every minute".

 

[AndOne]

If the Nature of God is the yardstick by which we are to measure ourselves, then understanding His Nature should be undertaken and embraced to learn His Character which is what being up against the yardstick will reveal. I believe your side of the aisle takes too much for granted and presumes upon that which you don''t possess.

Honest question here - are you saying you can measure up to the Nature and Character of God?