1844 sacantuary message what difference does it make?

[tall73]

This post had every thing i wanted to discuss all the historic Adventist to the Evanglical Adventist to the progressives Adventist. Good.

The HA's reasoning is rather weird. I used to believe this. It seems that The HA position is a reactonary postition. We are concerned with people not living a holy life so we have to come up with a teaching that will insure that people try to behave. it seems stupid to me. Why do you need fear to get people to obey the lord. Jesus said "unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingodom of heaven" why is that not good enough? Revelation tells us that there will be group of people who are out side the city? why is that not good enough to say you have to life holy. "If you listen to my word you will have eternal life." Jesus. If you don't??? Why the fear of you name coming up at some time. what value is there in that? I don't see that it adds any value to the chruch. While I can appreaciate the need to remove sin from our lives and to be holy, I respect that I don't respect using fear as a motivator to do that. either you love that Lord and what to do what he say or you don't. the Damage done by this donctrine to 2 generations of SDA, with the fear and parinora of making a mistake and losing your eternal life. it is enough to drive a person insane.

The EA's have figure this out that and reject that idea.

Agreed, folks on both sides accept the ideea that a holy life can only come from Christ's power.

The issue is not ultimately holy living but whether perfect sinlessness is possibile in this world. That seems to be the dividing line.

The holy life that we want can only come from walking each moment in the Spirit. Therefore to focus on Christ or to "set you minds on things above" is the key.

 

[Adventtruth]

Essentially we're saying the same thing. The thing is, you're approaching the matter from the perspective of the promise (according to faith), whereas I'm approaching it from two perspectives. That is, the perspective of the promise, as well as its actual fulfillment.

It's important that we bring both dynamics into perspective, because the atonement is much more than a covering of sin. It speaks of a complete eradication of sin, and a change in everything that has been effected by it.

Again, I direct you to Rev. 21:4--the consummation of the atonement.

Ok I'l look at the passage you suggested. I see your point about death...the last enemy that is defeated is death. but I can't agree that the full atonement was not paid at the cross.

Adventtruth.

 

[woobadooba]

Agreed, folks on both sides accept the ideea that a holy life can only come from Christ's power.

The issue is not ultimately holy living but whether perfect sinlessness is possibile in this world. That seems to be the dividing line.

The holy life that we want can only come from walking each moment in the Spirit. Therefore to focus on Christ or to "set you minds on things above" is the key.

I believe it's possible, but only insofar as we allow Christ to bring about such possibilities within our lives.

We fail at the point of yielding to God when tempted.

Yet, one might argue that there are inadvertent sins. In other words, sin isn't always wilful.

Truth is, if we would follow the simple instruction given to us in Phil. 4:8 we wouldn't have to be concerned about either of these--willful and inadvertent sins.

God justifies sinners. He doesn't justify sin.

 

[woobadooba]

Ok I'l look at the passage you suggested. I see your point about death...the last enemy that is defeated is death. but I can't agree that the full atonement was not paid at the cross.

Adventtruth.

You're missing my point. Yes, a full atoning sacrifice was made at the cross; but its effect hasn't reached its consummation just yet.

 

[Adventtruth]

You're missing my point. Yes, a full atoning sacrifice was made at the cross; but its effect hasn't reached its consummation just yet.

Sorry for missing your point in all this...I agree that the atonnement has not reached the full end for which it was givin...probation has not ended and death has not fully been distroyed becasue people still die. But I disagree with the traditional Adventist who teach there is a second atonement or that the atonement was not completed at the cross.

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

Sorry for missing your point in all this...I agree that the atonnement has not reached the full end for which it was givin...probation has not ended and death has not fully been distroyed becasue people still die. But I disagree with the traditional Adventist who teach there is a second atonement or that the atonement was not completed at the cross.

Adventtruth

What they don't see is that when speaking in the manner that they do they are in essence denying that God is omniscient

 

[Adventtruth]

Agreed, folks on both sides accept the ideea that a holy life can only come from Christ's power.

The issue is not ultimately holy living but whether perfect sinlessness is possibile in this world. That seems to be the dividing line.

The holy life that we want can only come from walking each moment in the Spirit. Therefore to focus on Christ or to "set you minds on things above" is the key.

I do not know if its possible in this life...to do so would mean the cutting away of the sin nature itself. The bible plainly tells us if we say we are without this nature we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.

It all about the doing and dying of Jesus. All He did is imputed to us...His righteous acts stand for us in the Judgment. To be perfectly sinless is to not need Jesus as a covering. It is His blood that was atoned for us.

Now I am not making excuses for not living holy, we must be obediant to our Lord, after all we have been delieverd from sin to holiness. We are to be sanctified which is set apart from sin.

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

I do not know if its possible in this life...to do so would mean the cutting away of the sin nature itself. The bible plainly tells us if we say we are without this nature we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Actually, according to the context of the passage to which you are referring, John was speaking against those who assumed to have no need for Christ. Thus they thought that they had arrived, and were above and beyond those to whom they looked down upon as sinners. I do believe the thought is a parallel to the the parable that Jesus had told concerning the prayers of the tax collector and the Pharisee. See Lk. 18:10-13

It all about the doing and dying of Jesus. All He did is imputed to us...His righteous acts stand for us in the Judgment. To be perfectly sinless is to not need Jesus as a covering. It is His blood that was atoned for us.

This is a misconception. It is by the grace of God that we are forgiven of our sin, and by the grace of God that we are able to live without yielding to it. Hence, Christ is always needed.

 

[OntheDL]

Agreed, folks on both sides accept the ideea that a holy life can only come from Christ's power.

The issue is not ultimately holy living but whether perfect sinlessness is possibile in this world. That seems to be the dividing line.

The holy life that we want can only come from walking each moment in the Spirit. Therefore to focus on Christ or to "set you minds on things above" is the key.

Let me try to explain this perfection...

The God-like perfection for man is a pagan idea. We the created being will never have that.

However the sinless perfection means perfect obedience, doesn't mean we won't make mistakes, but no wilfull rebellions.

A sin is only forgiven if fully forsaken/turn away from. Jesus said to the woman after forgave her sins, 'go sin no more'.

If a person repeated committing the same sin to the end, then he/she never truly confessed and repented from it. Thus not forgiven.

If an alcoholic quits drinking but went into a bar he used to go and sips a drink, now he remembers he had asked God to help him quit, he stops. That's a mistake. But if he ignores the calling and goes on to finish that drink, that's wilfull rebellion.

"it's better to obey than sacrifice". How good or how sincere is the repentance when you do it yet again when push comes to shove?

Someone once gave me a good illustration about perfection. He said when his son was born in the hospital, the doctor said his son was perfect. He was perfect eventhough he could even walk or talk. But he was perfect at that stage.

This echos what we talked about knowing the Lord and knowing the Bible. The person is considered perfect when he is faithful to the knowledge God reveals to him.

This is why the bible likens man to a tree. A tree is perfect at any time for that stage. And it's always growing. When it stops growing, it starts dying.

Hope this makes sense,

 

[Adventtruth]

Actually, according to the context of the passage to which you are referring, John was speaking against those who assumed to have no need for Christ.

Agreed.

Thus they thought that they had arrived, and were above and beyond those to whom they looked down upon as sinners. I do believe the thought is a parallel to the the parable that Jesus had told concerning the prayers of the tax collector and the Pharisee. See Lk. 18:10-13

Its obvious from reading the text that John had the sin nature in mind. He uses the singular. 1John1:9 uses the plural

This is a misconception. It is by the grace of God that we are forgiven of our sin, and by the grace of God that we are able to live without yielding to it. Hence, Christ is always needed.

Then what is the misconception? His life is still imputed to us.

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

Its obvious from reading the text that John had the sin nature in mind. He uses the singular. 1John1:9 uses the plural

This doesn't contradict anything that I've said.

Then what is the misconception? His life is still imputed to us.

The misconception is that you had implied (within the context of becoming sinless) that if we could be sinless we would have no need for Christ. This is obviously false.

 

[Adventtruth]

This doesn't contradict anything that I've said.



The misconception is that you had implied (within the context of becoming sinless) that if we could be sinless we would have no need for Christ. This is obviously false.

Did not Christ die for our sins??? If we are sinless why cover for what is not there. We will be sinless on the other side of heaven. Will Christ still cover us then?

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

Did not Christ die for our sins??? If we are sinless why cover for what is not there. We will be sinless on the other side of heaven. Will Christ still cover us then?

OK, I went back and read what you had said in post #27, and discovered that I had made an assumption by
overlooking what you had really said.

You were not merely referring to our need for Jesus in general, but to the sinner's need for Him as a "covering".

Nevertheless, your response was given within the context of becoming sinless in this age. For, you were addressing Tall73's comment in post #21.

Therefore, even if one were to become sinless in this age, that wouldn't mean he didn't need Jesus as a covering.

Truth is, without Jesus atoning sacrifice one wouldn't be able to become sinless as such. As the song goes, "there is power in the blood of the Lamb!" Matt. 1:21; Rom. 1:16

 

[Jon0388g]

However, I do reject the historic Adventist arguments that that we can't be completely forgiven, even if we have repented of our sins, until we stop sinning, that Jesus can't blot out our sins from the heavenly sanctuary until we become perfect enough to live without an intercessor, and that only then will He come to take us to heaven.

But we are completely forgiven upon confession of our sins; it is through Christ that we are forgiven! But again, we should look at the earthly sanctuary to visualise what this really signifies; - as I understand it, during the daily offerings, the people of Israel's sins were symbolically transferred to the bull/lamb (Jesus), and the Bible even says that it was forgiven:

"So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has committed from one of these, and it will be forgiven him...." Leviticus 5:13

- but the blood was sprinkled inside the sanctuary. It was only on the Day of Atonement that God proclaimed the sins of Israel to be clean:

"for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord." Leviticus 16:30

Two things should be noted here; the use of the word 'clean' or 'cleanse,' but also the fact that God says 'all' your sins; which implies that before this Day of Atonement, the forgiven sins are still present, but are now cleansed from the temple!!!

In regards to the 'perfection' view I still need to study this a bit further; my initial reaction is simply that the traditional SDA view on this seems radical at first, but really shouldn't be a stumbling block. At Jesus' coming, we will be blameless, changed in the 'twinkling of an eye,' for that is the only way we are able to stand in the glory of God. But again I will be looking into this further.

2. They vindicate God's character as evident by our character. Work reflects character.

3. The wicked receive their punishment: all the confessed sins bored by Christ are transferred to the originator: Satan; the unconfessed sins are bored by the individual sinners.

So the records of the sins are not a grudge against sinners: you and me. They are the testament of God's love and justice.

These are essential points to remember. Check this verse out:

" 'Therefore say to the house of Israel, "Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name....I will vindicate the holiness of My great name.......when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight." Ezekiel 36:22-24

Note also, what comes after this:

"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness....I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you..." Ezekiel 36:25-26

(For any doubts on the IJ I urge you guys to refer to the book of Ezekiel which for me is a clear 'type' of the IJ judgement of God's people, perfectly emphasising the message of Daniel and even moreso Revelation.)

God Bless

J

 

[Windmill]

I have been raised in the SDA chruch and have a Degree in SDA theology. I gave my life to the lord when I was 16. In doing so I accepted many things with out question, including 1844 jesus entering the sancturary. I was just a matter of fact. It happened and we believe it?

Recently however I have been confronted by a very good friend of mine as to the reality of this event. While his point is that you can't prove it from the scripture, it Got me thinking about the subject, so what. So jesus entered the Heavenly Scantuary. Why does it matter? Either you have a realtionship with Him or you don't. either you're born again or not. either you are following or you are not. Why the need for something else. It just seems like another scare tactic or a worthless teaching. Why does it matter. Your name could come up, so what? If you are not a follower you aren't getting in any ways and believer don't need it. So why does it matter. What Value is added by this teaching?

It matters to teach it, because if (I do not accept it blindly. I have good reason to believe it is true) we assume now that it is real, well, think about it. It is a sign of God. Prophecy gives us hope and helps us see that yes, the bible is true. People should also understand the great dissaponitment, otherwise people might (as has been done to me) try to use it again an adventist to turn them away from their faith- telling them that the church was built up on it.

If we understand what it truely is, then we understand Gods leading. We can understand the event, and understand it was quite a blessing for us as a church, rather than something we should just sweep under the carpet, no?

There is also a lot of false teachings surround the prophecy. By teaching the real prophecy, we're stopping others being sucked in.

I mean, take the 70 week prophecy. One guy started to talk with me, and has emailed me a bunch of his study notes. He blieves that the final week will be on earth. By teaching what the 70 week prophecy is really about, we're safeguarding others and ourselves from being trapped into believing this false theory.

Then, along with this false theory, comes other false teachings. Now, one may look at the 70 week prophecy and say, why should I care? Afterall, it was only for the Jews, really, it has nothing to do with me. But, indeed it has something to do with you. Not only does it show us how Gods hand is leading by showing us prophecy, it also lets us know the real interpretation so we don't get sucked into another idea, which leads into other things, too.

 

[Adventtruth]

But we are completely forgiven upon confession of our sins; it is through Christ that we are forgiven! But again, we should look at the earthly sanctuary to visualise what this really signifies; - as I understand it, during the daily offerings, the people of Israel's sins were symbolically transferred to the bull/lamb (Jesus), and the Bible even says that it was forgiven:

"So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has committed from one of these, and it will be forgiven him...." Leviticus 5:13

- but the blood was sprinkled inside the sanctuary. It was only on the Day of Atonement that God proclaimed the sins of Israel to be clean:

"for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord." Leviticus 16:30

Two things should be noted here; the use of the word 'clean' or 'cleanse,' but also the fact that God says 'all' your sins; which implies that before this Day of Atonement, the forgiven sins are still present, but are now cleansed from the temple!!!

In regards to the 'perfection' view I still need to study this a bit further; my initial reaction is simply that the traditional SDA view on this seems radical at first, but really shouldn't be a stumbling block. At Jesus' coming, we will be blameless, changed in the 'twinkling of an eye,' for that is the only way we are able to stand in the glory of God. But again I will be looking into this further.




These are essential points to remember. Check this verse out:

" 'Therefore say to the house of Israel, "Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name....I will vindicate the holiness of My great name.......when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight." Ezekiel 36:22-24

Note also, what comes after this:

"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness....I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you..." Ezekiel 36:25-26

(For any doubts on the IJ I urge you guys to refer to the book of Ezekiel which for me is a clear 'type' of the IJ judgement of God's people, perfectly emphasising the message of Daniel and even moreso Revelation.)

God Bless

J

Jon...are you suggesting that it is the record of our sins that vindicate God??

Adventtruth

 

[Jon0388g]

Jon...are you suggesting that it is the record of our sins that vindicate God??

Adventtruth

There are many things that will eventually vindicate the name of our Lord. The record of confessed sins are there to symbolise the need for Jesus' covering blood, in order to cleanse the memory of the sin once and for all. This record is plain and clear for all heavenly beings, satan included, to see that God indeed is a just God, and that there is a way for us to obey Him, through Christ.

In our lives we too vindicate God's name by living a righteous and blameless life, continually dying to sin and repenting day after day. We again prove Satan wrong that through Christ we are all able to live by God's standards, and be judged accordingly.

We shouldn't forget that in the days of Ezekiel/Daniel if a nation were destroyed, it reflected the strength of that nation's god; the name of the god was ridiculed and mocked. So, in light of this, God's name is again vindicated when He is 'to act,' when the 'books are opened,' and also because His people and sanctuary have been 'trodden under foot.'

For me, the whole of the investigative judgement which commenced in 1844 is primarily to vindicate God's name, among other things.

J

 

[woobadooba]

There are many things that will eventually vindicate the name of our Lord. The record of confessed sins are there to symbolise the need for Jesus' covering blood, in order to cleanse the memory of the sin once and for all. This record is plain and clear for all heavenly beings, satan included, to see that God indeed is a just God, and that there is a way for us to obey Him, through Christ.

In our lives we too vindicate God's name by living a righteous and blameless life, continually dying to sin and repenting day after day. We again prove Satan wrong that through Christ we are all able to live by God's standards, and be judged accordingly.

We shouldn't forget that in the days of Ezekiel/Daniel if a nation were destroyed, it reflected the strength of that nation's god; the name of the god was ridiculed and mocked. So, in light of this, God's name is again vindicated when He is 'to act,' when the 'books are opened,' and also because His people and sanctuary have been 'trodden under foot.'

For me, the whole of the investigative judgement which commenced in 1844 is primarily to vindicate God's name, among other things.

J

Wasn't the manner in which Jesus lived, and the purpose for which He died enough to disclose a just God?

Read closely please:

"But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom 3:21-26 NRSV)

 

[Adventtruth]

There are many things that will eventually vindicate the name of our Lord. The record of confessed sins are there to symbolise the need for Jesus' covering blood, in order to cleanse the memory of the sin once and for all. This record is plain and clear for all heavenly beings, satan included, to see that God indeed is a just God, and that there is a way for us to obey Him, through Christ.

But what makes you say this "record of confessed sins are there to symbolise the need for Jesus"??? Kindly flesh this idea out from the bible please.

Adventtruth