1844 sacantuary message what difference does it make?

[Adventist Dissident]

I have been raised in the SDA chruch and have a Degree in SDA theology. I gave my life to the lord when I was 16. In doing so I accepted many things with out question, including 1844 jesus entering the sancturary. I was just a matter of fact. It happened and we believe it?

Recently however I have been confronted by a very good friend of mine as to the reality of this event. While his point is that you can't prove it from the scripture, it Got me thinking about the subject, so what. So jesus entered the Heavenly Scantuary. Why does it matter? Either you have a realtionship with Him or you don't. either you're born again or not. either you are following or you are not. Why the need for something else. It just seems like another scare tactic or a worthless teaching. Why does it matter. Your name could come up, so what? If you are not a follower you aren't getting in any ways and believer don't need it. So why does it matter. What Value is added by this teaching?

 

[Sunrunner]

The Sanctuary is extremely important! The entire Bible is a transition from the events of the earthly Sanctuary to the Heavenly Sanctuary, so you can definitely prove it in the Bible! In fact, the Sanctuary is one of the foundations of the Gospel. The sacrifices, the feasts, and items in the Temple, they all pointed to Jesus!

And now is the time when Jesus is in the Most Holy Place, performing the great work that we saw symbolically in the earthly Sanctuary of Israel. We have to carry the message to the world that "Behold, the hour of judgment has come."

The Sanctuary doctrine is found all the way from Genesis to Revelation. It is of utmost importance indeed.

"Worthless teaching"? I wouldn't say so. Knowing about God helps us to more clearly know God and understand His character. Plus, I don't think God wants anyone to be ignorant.

You should've watched the Presence series by Shawn Boonstra. It was amazing! Everything points to Jesus so miraculously and perfectly. If you take the time to understand it, you'll see how the Sanctuary is a major biblical theme.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The Sanctuary is extremely important! The entire Bible is a transition from the events of the earthly Sanctuary to the Heavenly Sanctuary, so you can definitely prove it in the Bible! In fact, the Sanctuary is one of the foundations of the Gospel. The sacrifices, the feasts, and items in the Temple, they all pointed to Jesus!

And now is the time when Jesus is in the Most Holy Place, performing the great work that we saw symbolically in the earthly Sanctuary of Israel. We have to carry the message to the world that "Behold, the hour of judgment has come."

The Sanctuary doctrine is found all the way from Genesis to Revelation. It is of utmost importance indeed.

"Worthless teaching"? I wouldn't say so. Knowing about God helps us to more clearly know God and understand His character. Plus, I don't think God wants anyone to be ignorant.

You should've watched the Presence series by Shawn Boonstra. It was amazing! Everything points to Jesus so miraculously and perfectly. If you take the time to understand it, you'll see how the Sanctuary is a major biblical theme.

I think you misunderstand my question. I am not saying the sancturary is not imortant. I am saying that 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary does not seem to add any value to the gospel message. so what Jesus entered into the Most holy place, so what? for believers it makes no differece and for the unbeliver it make no difference. If you are a follower and you already doing what Christ wants don't have anything to worry about. if you are an unbeliver you are still lost any way. Jesus going in to a new room does not change any of that. So why is it important. I am not deying that tabernacle, temple, sacrifical system exists or that it doesent have meaning. I believe it does, festivals,symbols etc. good stuff. but 1844 and the Going into the most holy place. I just seems like a fear tactic.

As far as Shawn boonstra is concerend I don't like him. He is to arrogant for me. To in your face. not saying his stuff is bad, just cant get past Him.

 

[Adventtruth]

I think you misunderstand my question. I am not saying the sancturary is not imortant. I am saying that 1844 and the heavenly sanctuary does not seem to add any value to the gospel message. so what Jesus entered into the Most holy place, so what? for believers it makes no differece and for the unbeliver it make no difference. If you are a follower and you already doing what Christ wants don't have anything to worry about. if you are an unbeliver you are still lost any way. Jesus going in to a new room does not change any of that. So why is it important. I am not deying that tabernacle, temple, sacrifical system exists or that it doesent have meaning. I believe it does, festivals,symbols etc. good stuff. but 1844 and the Going into the most holy place. I just seems like a fear tactic.

As far as Shawn boonstra is concerend I don't like him. He is to arrogant for me. To in your face. not saying his stuff is bad, just cant get past Him.

Jesus said


Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The New Testament says


Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:...
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



The 1844 doctrine says no...sins are not really forgiven as of yet...sins must be blotted-out at some future time after probation or after you name has come up. 1844 teaches the atonment has not been fully completed at the cross but must be completed after probation. After probation when Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary believers must not sin because they will be with out Jesus to cover and mediate for them before the Father.

Most are motavated to be free from sin by doing right rather than by trusting Christ for his imputation of justification.

IJohn 1:9 does not fully mean what it says if we believe the 1844 doctrine as it is traditionaly taught. BTW...there have been many modifications of the 1844 doctrine over the years.

The doctrine of Justification by grace alone through Christ alone is incompatible with the doctrine of 1844.

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

I have been raised in the SDA chruch and have a Degree in SDA theology. I gave my life to the lord when I was 16. In doing so I accepted many things with out question, including 1844 jesus entering the sancturary. I was just a matter of fact. It happened and we believe it?

Recently however I have been confronted by a very good friend of mine as to the reality of this event. While his point is that you can't prove it from the scripture, it Got me thinking about the subject, so what. So jesus entered the Heavenly Scantuary. Why does it matter? Either you have a realtionship with Him or you don't. either you're born again or not. either you are following or you are not. Why the need for something else. It just seems like another scare tactic or a worthless teaching. Why does it matter. Your name could come up, so what? If you are not a follower you aren't getting in any ways and believer don't need it. So why does it matter. What Value is added by this teaching?

I see that it is important because God is calling His people to the truth as it is in Jesus. Fostering false views can lead to apostasy. And you know what happens then...

At this time I'm not sure about this message (IJ and 1844). For, the scriptures appear to be saying something else, as I have argued before from 1Pt. 4:17.

 

[woobadooba]

Jesus said


Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The New Testament says


Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:...
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



The 1844 doctrine says no...sins are not really forgiven as of yet...sins must be blotted-out at some future time after probation or after you name has come up. 1844 teaches the atonement has not been fully completed at the cross but must be completed after probation. After probation when Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary believers must not sin because they will be with out Jesus to cover and mediate for them before the Father.

Most are motavated to be free from sin by doing right rather than by trusting Christ for his imputation of justification.

IJohn 1:9 does not fully mean what it says if we believe the 1844 doctrine as it is traditionaly taught. BTW...there have been many modifications of the 1844 doctrine over the years.

The doctrine of Justification by grace alone through Christ alone is incompatible with the doctrine of 1844.

Adventtruth

But a complete atonement for sin wasn't literally effected at the cross. There are three things that we are to be saved from: The guilt, power, and nature of sin. Jesus had said that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13). Then after that, the judgment (Heb. 9:27). So technically we aren't completely atoned for. Incidentally, the earth is to be be atoned for too. And this hasn't happened yet. See also Rev. 21:4

Now I do agree that God knows the end from the beginning. Hence, He knew from the beginning who would and wouldn't be saved (He doesn't have to investigate books as if He isn't aware of our deeds even before we carry them out).

This is the position that I see you taking. So in this sense we can say that a complete atonement insofar as saving *sinners* is concerned, was made when Jesus had said, "It is finished." Yet, it really wasn't literally effected until He had resurrected from the dead (Rom. 6:3-11; 2Cor. 5:17), or before the sinner said, "I believe" (Rom. 5:1; Heb. 11:6).

Truth is, when we look at this from the point of view that God is omniscient, things tend to get a little complicated.

This just goes to show us that God never intended that everything in the Bible concerning the judgment be interpreted literally, but that many things must be interpreted symbolically.

Truth is, if we interpret everything that has to do with the judgment literally, then we would have to deny that God is omniscient. Yet, we know that God is omniscient. For, this is what the Bible teaches us (Isa. 46:10).

Therefore, we have to learn to discern the difference between that which is to be interpreted as literal, and that which is to be understood as symbolical in meaning to bypass such complications.

 

[Sophia7]

I've had many questions and doubts lately on 1844 and the IJ, and I want to thank all of you who have argued your positions and given us links and articles and helped us to clarify some of the issues. My huband and I haven't resolved everything in our minds, but we have decided not to leave the church and not to leave the ministry at this point.

However, I do reject the historic Adventist arguments that that we can't be completely forgiven, even if we have repented of our sins, until we stop sinning, that Jesus can't blot out our sins from the heavenly sanctuary until we become perfect enough to live without an intercessor, and that only then will He come to take us to heaven. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith, not by faith and works. Our gospel message is compromised when we give people the impression (which so many of our members have) that unless they are perfect at the moment that their name comes up in the judgment, they will be eternally lost with no chance to repent even though they don't know it. In my opinion, these ideas not only have failed to add anything of value to our Christian experience but also have led many people into legalism and fear and taken away their assurance of salvation.

The truth is, though, that Adventist teachings on these things have evolved throughout our history, from the shut-door theory of the early years to an emphasis on righteousness by faith in 1888 to a focus on perfectionism and a tendency toward legalism in the 1930s and 40s and 50s and finally to the renewed awareness of the importance of righteousness by faith that I've seen in the church during my lifetime. If we encounter teachings of our pioneers and other church leaders that were in error, we must recognize that and correct it and move on.

Whatever disagreements we may have on the specifics, I believe that the main significance of 1844 was that God raised up a people to proclaim the imminence of the second coming and to rediscover many other truths that had been neglected (although we can also learn much from other Christians about truths that we have ignored). There is no getting around the fact that the Adventist pioneers--even Ellen White--were not right about everything. Their understandings of spiritual truths progressed over time, as should ours. However, God used them in spite of their weaknesses to begin a movement that would help to spread the gospel throughout the world, and He has blessed our efforts in that regard. And that makes a difference to me.

 

[Adventtruth]

But a complete atonement for sin wasn't literally effected at the cross. There are three things that we are to be saved from: The guilt, power, and nature of sin. Jesus had said that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13). Then after that, the judgment (Heb. 9:27). So technically we aren't completely atoned for. Incidentally, the earth is to be be atoned for too. And this hasn't happened yet. See also Rev. 21:4

Hi woobadooba and thanks for your kind posting.

The bible says

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This sin that entered the world was the sin nature or fallen nature or corrupt nature. And so all that partake of this sin nature has death passed unto them. All men have sinned "In Adam".
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Acts of sin is not imputed to man when there is not a law to sin against. but never the less before the law of Moses death still reigned and it even reigned over those who had commited no acts of sin (even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression) namely babies.

Men die because they miss the true scope and goal of God...perfection. We serve a just God who will not settle for second best. So death past onto all men because all men sinned in Adam or have this sin nature or fallen condition. Men are never sent to hell because of the acts of sin, they are sent to hell for having on the wrong garment...their own. If we are to be in heaven we have to have on Christ robe of righteousness. If works of righteousness will not merit us salvation, then works of unrighteousness will not merit us hell. Works of righteousness testify that we are saved, works of unrightousness testify we are not saved.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)






The offence of Adam brought death to all of the human race. But the free gift is not like that...the free gift is to all that recieve Christ. Legally Christ died for the whole human race, but only some will decide to recieve this free gift.
Once a man understands that it is his stain of sin or sin nature or fallen nature that has been covered by the blood of Jesus by faith, then he is delievered from the power and guilt. We have died to sin knowing that Christ has defeated sin in the flesh.


Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
But the key is we are led to be obedient to God and His word through the power of the Holy Spirit. We now have the victory over sin and death through the death of Jesus and His blood that covers us. The bible tells us that the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law. The meaning of the sting of death is sin gives the idea that sin in its nature is the cause of death. If Christ covers this for us then we are covered by the blood of Christ. To cover means to atone and we must remain coverd till we died or to the second coming at the time we are changed. We must always confess our sinful natures to God this side of heaven in order to be justified by grace through faith in that same blood that that does always cover us. We are completely atoned for as long as we confess our need of His righteousness. There is nothing more that needs to be done for us.

Jesus had said that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:13). Then after that, the judgment (Heb. 9:27).

In Matt 24:13 yes those who endure till the end "in faith" will be saved. Those who endure are the ones covered or atoned for by His blood.

The passage in Hebrews you took out of context to prove your point.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



The point of the passage is that Christ came as a sin offering...that He died inplace of man for man as an offering for sin and by dying and the resurrection He himself defeated sin and death. He died once and His blood was found worthy as a sacrifice for man.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;



At the cross it was proven that Satin was wrong. At Jesus's ascension Judgement begain. All who decied to trust Jesus by faith are judged as being in Christ and found righteous in Christ...those who decied to continue in their own garment are found in Adam and recieve the second death. Men are apointed once to die before the second coming of Christ, then our fate is sealed...we are righteous or unrighteous.

Adventtruth

 

[OntheDL]

However, I do reject the historic Adventist arguments that that we can't be completely forgiven, even if we have repented of our sins, until we stop sinning, that Jesus can't blot out our sins from the heavenly sanctuary until we become perfect enough to live without an intercessor, and that only then will He come to take us to heaven. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith, not by faith and works. Our gospel message is compromised when we give people the impression (which so many of our members have) that unless they are perfect at the moment that their name comes up in the judgment, they will be eternally lost with no chance to repent even though they don't know it. In my opinion, these ideas not only have failed to add anything of value to our Christian experience but also have led many people into legalism and fear and taken away their assurance of salvation.

I think this is a misconception. The sins confessed and forsaken are fully forgiven. After the penitent confessed his sins to and slayed the animal, he was free to go.

However the records of sins are preserved for the following reasons:

1. They stand as the testimony of Jesus' payment of our sins against Satan's accusations.

2. They vindicate God's character as evident by our character. Work reflects character.

3. The wicked receive their punishment: all the confessed sins bored by Christ are transferred to the originator: Satan; the unconfessed sins are bored by the individual sinners.

So the records of the sins are not a grudge against sinners: you and me. They are the testament of God's love and justice.

 

[woobadooba]

The offence of Adam brought death to all of the human race. But the free gift is not like that...the free gift is to all that receive Christ.

But men are still dying (including yourself). Hence, you are still mortal. Therefore, you haven't been saved from the nature of sin just yet.

Legally Christ died for the whole human race, but only some will decide to recieve this free gift. Once a man understands that it is his stain of sin or sin nature or fallen nature that has been covered by the blood of Jesus by faith, then he is delievered from the power and guilt.

He is delivered from the guilt at that point, and is thus reconciled to God. He is only delivered from the power of sin insofar as he's willing to allow Jesus to sanctify him.

Do you still sin? If you do, then there's something that you're holding on to that you haven't given to God. Hence, you haven't been completely delivered from the power of sin.

But the key is we are led to be obedient to God and His word through the power of the Holy Spirit. We now have the victory over sin and death through the death of Jesus and His blood that covers us.

Correction: We only have victory over sin to the degree in which we are willing to allow God to give it to us.

To cover means to atone and we must remain coverd till we died or to the second coming at the time we are changed.

With all due respect, this is a very shallow way to look at the atonement. We have not yet been completely atoned for. To say that we have been is to suggest that we are no longer dying or sinning against God.

By the way, please don't give me a Bible study next time. I understand the basics of the Gospel.

 

[Sophia7]

I think this is a misconception. The sins confessed and forsaken are fully forgiven. After the penitent confessed his sins to and slayed the animal, he was free to go.

However the records of sins are preserved for the following reasons:

1. They stand as the testimony of Jesus' payment of our sins against Satan's accusations.

2. They vindicate God's character as evident by our character. Work reflects character.

3. The wicked receive their punishment: all the confessed sins bored by Christ are transferred to the originator: Satan; the unconfessed sins are bored by the individual sinners.

So the records of the sins are not a grudge against sinners: you and me. They are the testament of God's love and justice.

You may not agree with the view that I described (and I'm glad that you don't), but those were the beliefs expressed by Frazee in his book about the investigative judgment. They reflect an era of Adventist theological thinking (though not an official teaching). All I can say is that I'm thankful that Adventism has moved away from that extreme.

 

[Adventtruth]

I think this is a misconception. The sins confessed and forsaken are fully forgiven. After the penitent confessed his sins to and slayed the animal, he was free to go.

However the records of sins are preserved for the following reasons:

1. They stand as the testimony of Jesus' payment of our sins against Satan's accusations.

2. They vindicate God's character as evident by our character. Work reflects character.

3. The wicked receive their punishment: all the confessed sins bored by Christ are transferred to the originator: Satan; the unconfessed sins are bored by the individual sinners.

So the records of the sins are not a grudge against sinners: you and me. They are the testament of God's love and justice.

But what you have written is still contrary to what the bible teaches.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Under the new covenant God say he will remember sins no more.

It is Jesus Himself that stands as a testimony for our sins...not a record of our sins.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

ANd our record of sins never vindicate God. It is the redeemed saints who vindicte or glorify God.

Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my Glory ,I have formed him; yea, I have made him.



Adventtruth

 

[Adventtruth]

But men are still dying (including yourself). Hence, you are still mortal. Therefore, you haven't been saved from the nature of sin just yet.



He is delivered from the guilt at that point, and is thus reconciled to God. He is only delivered from the power of sin insofar as he's willing to allow Jesus to sanctify him.

Do you still sin? If you do, then there's something that you're holding on to that you haven't given to God. Hence, you haven't been completely delivered from the power of sin.



Correction: We only have victory over sin to the degree in which we are willing to allow God to give it to us.



With all due respect, this is a very shallow way to look at the atonement. We have not yet been completely atoned for. To say that we have been is to suggest that we are no longer dying or sinning against God.

By the way, please don't give me a Bible study next time. I understand the basics of the Gospel.

Thats why I never said anythig about being delievered from the nature of it. Thats not the important thing. The most important thing is that we will not face the scond death.

I hope I did not communicate to you I was perfect...far from it. I am still wrestling with things. Therefore I confess them aswel as my sinful nature to God daily. 1John 1:9 . Only let us not presume upon God.

The bible makes it clear...those who are atoned for, that is covered by the blood of Christ are delivered from death(the second death) and the power of the sin nature. Sin has no more dominion over us.

As to the bible study, I did not see it that way. please forgive me. That is the only way I know how to get my points across. I will respect you in this regard.

Adventtruth

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This post had every thing i wanted to discuss all the historic Adventist to the Evanglical Adventist to the progressives Adventist. Good.

The HA's reasoning is rather weird. I used to believe this. It seems that The HA position is a reactonary postition. We are concerned with people not living a holy life so we have to come up with a teaching that will insure that people try to behave. it seems stupid to me. Why do you need fear to get people to obey the lord. Jesus said "unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingodom of heaven" why is that not good enough? Revelation tells us that there will be group of people who are out side the city? why is that not good enough to say you have to life holy. "If you listen to my word you will have eternal life." Jesus. If you don't??? Why the fear of you name coming up at some time. what value is there in that? I don't see that it adds any value to the chruch. While I can appreaciate the need to remove sin from our lives and to be holy, I respect that I don't respect using fear as a motivator to do that. either you love that Lord and what to do what he say or you don't. the Damage done by this donctrine to 2 generations of SDA, with the fear and parinora of making a mistake and losing your eternal life. it is enough to drive a person insane.

The EA's have figure this out that and reject that idea.

 

[OntheDL]

This post had every thing i wanted to discuss all the historic Adventist to the Evanglical Adventist to the progressives Adventist. Good.

The HA's reasoning is rather weird. I used to believe this. It seems that The HA position is a reactonary postition. We are concerned with people not living a holy life so we have to come up with a teaching that will insure that people try to behave. it seems stupid to me. Why do you need fear to get people to obey the lord. Jesus said "unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingodom of heaven" why is that not good enough? Revelation tells us that there will be group of people who are out side the city? why is that not good enough to say you have to life holy. "If you listen to my word you will have eternal life." Jesus. If you don't??? Why the fear of you name coming up at some time. what value is there in that? I don't see that it adds any value to the chruch. While I can appreaciate the need to remove sin from our lives and to be holy, I respect that I don't respect using fear as a motivator to do that. either you love that Lord and what to do what he say or you don't. the Damage done by this donctrine to 2 generations of SDA, with the fear and parinora of making a mistake and losing your eternal life. it is enough to drive a person insane.

The EA's have figure this out that and reject that idea

Fear? No one is going to dragged in heaven kicking and screaming. Even if there is no eternal life, we should still strive to live a holy life because what Jesus has done for us.

It was a trumpet of warning, a call of repentance.

You can believe in things but if you have not studied it. Then your belief is in vein because it has no foundation. However if you believe in things because you have studied and have a deep conviction, then no one can shake your tree.

My sugguestion for you is to do what Dave and Sophia are doing: study it. The Word is likened to bread because it's only tasty if you chew it for yourself. But first have no preconceived ideas/agendas.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Fear? No one is going to dragged in heaven kicking and screaming. Even if there is no eternal life, we should still strive to live a holy life because what Jesus has done for us.

It was a trumpet of warning, a call of repentance.

You can believe in things but if you have not studied it. Then your belief is in vein because it has no foundation. However if you believe in things because you have studied and have a deep conviction, then no one can shake your tree.

My sugguestion for you is to do what Dave and Sophia are doing: study it. The Word is likened to bread because it's only tasty if you chew it for yourself. But first have no preconceived ideas/agendas.

Dave and sophia are 2 of my best friends. We have know each other for over a 10 years. I have studied with H.A. Gibson and Rafferty I know the Last generation Theology and it is garbage. It causes nuroisis and paranoia. I under stand santifaction and all that I have read the sancutary book by M.L. Andresen. while I don't reject the idea that something happened in 1844, but I don't think the IJ is what it was. I don't think it is important. There seems to be no practical benifit to the Chruch except to cause paranoia. What difference to me does it make if my name comes up in the Judgement or not? If I have not chosen Christ then I am not going to heaven. If I have I will. Just that simple. If you need a celestral draft number to get you to want to be in heaven then you have a problem you are not a christian and you won't go any way.
I think something else happened in 1844

I think God seeing a threat on the horizon moved to protect the Chruch. He raised up william miller to send a messesage that would ultimately lead to the presiveration of certian truth of jesus as creaton, reedemer, savior and friend. He needed to preserve a knowledge of himself, because of a Threat that was coming. What was this Threat?

It was Atheism. in 1793 with the beginnings of the French Reveloution, The enlightnment had reached it Goal the first Non-religious state. Religion was no longer in charge of the state. In fact the State now became Hostle toward the religion. the French revloution ultimately failed but the ideas lived on.

A young Theologian Named Charles Darwin became exposed to the ideas of The French reveloution and set out in 1844 (how's that for concidence) on the beagle around the world His ideas would shape the struggles of the world for over 150 years. He published his work in the 1860, about the same time that the SDA chruch offically orginized, it's like a race to see who can get there message out first. The God of creation message VS the no God message. Hum looks pretty convincing. I think that was the purpose of the SDA chruch to preserve a knowledge of a Creator God and the Sabbath was the key to do that. If you look at the History of the Chruch,Sda's might have been the only denomination at some point in time that was not offically given over to eveloution. that is what I think the importance of 1844 is

 

[woobadooba]

The bible makes it clear...those who are atoned for, that is covered by the blood of Christ are delivered from death(the second death) and the power of the sin nature. Sin has no more dominion over us.

The Bible doesn’t teach that we're completely atoned for at this time. If we were, we wouldn’t be dying or struggling with sin.

Moreover, how could we already be delivered from the second death when the end hasn't come yet? Do you believe it isn't possible to turn away from Christ at any point in your life? Are you an advocate of the view that once we’re saved we’re always saved? If not, how could you say you’re delivered from the second death when you haven't even reached the zenith of your life yet, much less the judgment of God?

But then you may say that you can declare this on account of your faith. It’s good that you speak with such confidence. However, since you haven’t literally been delivered from the second death at this point, it’s still possible that you might become subject to it at the end of your life, so to speak. That is, if you so decide to turn your back on God.

Hence, at this time your deliverance is merely by promise. And God does not lie. Therefore, you can be sure to know that God will fulfill what He has decreed shall come to pass. Nevertheless, where there is a promise there is a condition that goes along with it. And the condition has been given to us by Jesus Christ who said, “the one who endures to the end will be saved.” (Mat 24:13 NRSV) And what will be the characteristics of those who will be saved? “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.” (Rev 14:12 NRSV)

Notice the words “endures” and “endurance” in these passages! Thus they share close ties. Also notice that it says the saints keep the commandments of God, not that they try to keep them, but that they do keep them.

Indeed this is a hard teaching for many to accept…

Furthermore, if sin has no more dominion over Christians then why did Paul have to say to Christians, "do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions." (Rom 6:12 NRSV)

It appears that the people to whom Paul was referring (the ones whose faith was spoken of "throughout the world" Rom. 1:8) had issues with sin. It appears that they weren't completely delivered from its power; yet, they were still believers...

Hence they were not completely atoned for!

Truth is, the atonement will not be complete until the following promise unfolds: “he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away." (Rev 21:4 NRSV)

 

[tall73]

3. The wicked receive their punishment: all the confessed sins bored by Christ are transferred to the originator: Satan; the unconfessed sins are bored by the individual sinners.

So the records of the sins are not a grudge against sinners: you and me. They are the testament of God's love and justice.

This is what the wifey and I discussed last night. There is without a doubt according to Revelation a judgment involving the records, and those not in the book of life are lost. We must endure to the end. I see no problem with that. And yes, the sins are fully forgiven.

 

[Adventtruth]

The Bible doesn’t teach that we're completely atoned for at this time. If we were, we wouldn’t be dying or struggling with sin.

It is the shed blood that atones fully (Lev: 17:11) In the doing and dying of Christ He bore sins of the whole world. In this act of dying for the world, He fully covered sin for the human race by the sheding of His own blood. The meritorius rightousness of Christ, His full atonement for sin, constitutes Him legally, not morally, righteous in the sight of divine justice. Therefore when God pronounces the unrighteous (you and I) to be righteous, He simple declares our debt to justice paid by another. This is what the bible means by a full atonement.

Moreover, how could we already be delivered from the second death when the end hasn't come yet? Do you believe it isn't possible to turn away from Christ at any point in your life? Are you an advocate of the view that once we’re saved we’re always saved? If not, how could you say you’re delivered from the second death when you haven't even reached the zenith of your life yet, much less the judgment of God?

All who place there trust in Christ have passed from death into light. They have eternal life now (1John5:11) This eternal life is in the Son, therefore the question is do we have the Son...if yes then we have passed from the kingdome of darkness to the kingdome of light. We have the promise of Eternal life...and If we have the promise we have it now as long as we continue to trust by faith. (Titus 1:1-2)

There are many warnings in the bible that warn men about turning back. (Heb 10:26-39) , I assure you I am not an OSAS advocate, But my position in Christ now is saved. I know this becasue the bible tells me I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. (Eph 1:6,7) I feel for those who don't know if they are saved or lost.

But then you may say that you can declare this on account of your faith. It’s good that you speak with such confidence. However, since you haven’t literally been delivered from the second death at this point, it’s still possible that you might become subject to it at the end of your life, so to speak. That is, if you so decide to turn your back on God.

Its all by faith! (Rom 1:17) Every step of the way is by faith.

Hence, at this time your deliverance is merely by promise. And God does not lie. Therefore, you can be sure to know that God will fulfill what He has decreed shall come to pass. Nevertheless, where there is a promise there is a condition that goes along with it. And the condition has been given to us by Jesus Christ who said,

“the one who endures to the end will be saved.” (Mat 24:13 NRSV) And what will be the characteristics of those who will be saved? “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.” (Rev 14:12 NRSV)

Notice the words “endures” and “endurance” in these passages! Thus they share close ties. Also notice that it says the saints keep the commandments of God, not that they try to keep them, but that they do keep them.

Indeed this is a hard teaching for many to accept…

I agree with all you said above, but I keep in mind...the keeping of the law does not save me...it was Gods grace that saved me apart from any works, (Eph 2:8-10) The righteous works are the fruit of my salvation.

Furthermore, if sin has no more dominion over Christians then why did Paul have to say to Christians,

"do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions." (Rom 6:12 NRSV)

It appears that the people to whom Paul was referring (the ones whose faith was spoken of "throughout the world" Rom. 1:8) had issues with sin. It appears that they weren't completely delivered from its power; yet, they were still believers...

Hence they were not completely atoned for!

Truth is, the atonement will not be complete until the following promise unfolds: “he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away." (Rev 21:4 NRSV)

No the truth is they where completely atoned for...but they where not aware of it. God did for them what He does for all who trust in Christ byfaith. Look at Rom 6:3-7.

Paul had to teach the people these truths. And you and I need to teach those who don't understand what has legally been done for them at the cross and made a reality in their lives when the are saved!

Woobadooba you have a great understanding of salvation from what I see...you line up with bible doctrine. But my biggest problem I see with every Adventist Church I have been apart of is we don't unfold these truths to the people. I know people have to study for themselves, but us who teach and preach at church must unpack the gopel, unfold it, explain it to the people and make it simple for them, that the Spirit of God will bidd them to study own their own.

Blessing My friend!

Adventtruth

 

[woobadooba]

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It is the shed blood that atones fully (Lev: 17:11) In the doing and dying of Christ He bore sins of the whole world. In this act of dying for the world, He fully covered sin for the human race by the sheding of His own blood. The meritorius rightousness of Christ, His full atonement for sin, constitutes Him legally, not morally, righteous in the sight of divine justice. Therefore when God pronounces the unrighteous (you and I) to be righteous, He simple declares our debt to justice paid by another. This is what the bible means by a full atonement.



All who place there trust in Christ have passed from death into light. They have eternal life now (1John5:11) This eternal life is in the Son, therefore the question is do we have the Son...if yes then we have passed from the kingdome of darkness to the kingdome of light. We have the promise of Eternal life...and If we have the promise we have it now as long as we continue to trust by faith. (Titus 1:1-2)

There are many warnings in the bible that warn men about turning back. (Heb 10:26-39) , I assure you I am not an OSAS advocate, But my position in Christ now is saved. I know this becasue the bible tells me I have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. (Eph 1:6,7) I feel for those who don't know if they are saved or lost.




Its all by faith! (Rom 1:17) Every step of the way is by faith.



I agree with all you said above, but I keep in mind...the keeping of the law does not save me...it was Gods grace that saved me apart from any works, (Eph 2:8-10) The righteous works are the fruit of my salvation.




No the truth is they where completely atoned for...but they where not aware of it. God did for them what He does for all who trust in Christ byfaith. Look at Rom 6:3-7.

Paul had to teach the people these truths. And you and I need to teach those who don't understand what has legally been done for them at the cross and made a reality in their lives when the are saved!

Woobadooba you have a great understanding of salvation from what I see...you line up with bible doctrine. But my biggest problem I see with every Adventist Church I have been apart of is we don't unfold these truths to the people. I know people have to study for themselves, but us who teach and preach at church must unpack the gopel, unfold it, explain it to the people and make it simple for them, that the Spirit of God will bidd them to study own their own.

Blessing My friend!

Adventtruth

Essentially we're saying the same thing. The thing is, you're approaching the matter from the perspective of the promise (according to faith), whereas I'm approaching it from two perspectives. That is, the perspective of the promise, as well as its actual fulfillment.

It's important that we bring both dynamics into perspective, because the atonement is much more than a covering of sin. It speaks of a complete eradication of sin, and a change in everything that has been effected by it.

Again, I direct you to Rev. 21:4--the consummation of the atonement.