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Featured Historicist Only 1260 Days

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. JM

    JM pre·des·ti·nar·i·an Supporter

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    HISTORICIST ONLY:


    Here’s something interesting…the Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606.

    John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.”

    Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866.

    Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in it’s loss of political power.

    jm
     
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  2. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd only point out that the Emperor may have been good friends with the Bishop of Rome, and may have decreed that the Pope should be the head of all churches, but that doesn't make it a truth in the Church. The Bishop of Rome was already seen as the "First Among Equals". The head of the church is Christ.

    The Church has been conciliar since the time of the Apostles, and Peter started both the See of Antioch, and Rome. Rome was First Among Equals, but far from Infallible, and an Emperor certainly doesn't have the ability to say who is and is not the head of the church.
     
  3. Daniel Martinovich

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    I had searched out a lot of those dates. They kind of miss the point because the timeline of the prophecy focuses on the four empires. Babylon, Medo\Persia, Greek and Roman. The capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An emperor remained on the throne until 1453 AD when the Ottomans conquered Constantinople and killed the last emperor. Take 1260 years off that and you get the year 193 AD, the first year of the rein of Septimious Severes who fulfilled Daniel 7 in such a precise manner that if the secularists knew about it they would claim Daniel was written after 193 Ad.

    Stranger than fiction, on top of that which is somewhat indisputable once you know about it. If you remove all claimants to the throne and only count the victors in civil wars for the throne. Not an exact science but. You get the first seven emperors, Titus being the 8th who is of the seven because he is Vespasian's son. He is also the beast because it is he who destroys Jerusalem. But he is also the first of ten emperors of whom Severes is the 11th. By the way, if you want a prophecy about the papacy and all the other imperial churches of the emperors and kings of Europe. That is the animal that looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. The two horns are a prophecy of the Roman empires split into an eastern and western branch. It looks like a lamb is a prophecy about the empires claims of Christianity. It speaking as a dragon is the obvious. Satan is the power behind it.

    It's all a little irrelevant though without realizing what occurred when the empire fell. For the first time in human history the Bible started getting into the hands of the general public. This due to commercial printing presses that went online the very year the empire fell. That was the catalyst for Bible reading populations to win the promises of God in this age of promise that has well over a hundred chapters of prophecy about it.
    End Time Prophecy
     
  4. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    I have done an extensive study on the ancient Hebrew calendar given to Moses. (Article here). The numbers 1260, 1290, and 1335 are actually formulas used for adjusting the luni-solar cycles every 3.5 years.

    Yes, the prophets apply these numbers to prophetic matters, but could someone here explain why Historicists treat them as years instead of days?
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Chris; they apply a "day-year" correspondence:

    Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.

    Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

    Luke 13:31–33. Jesus describes His ministry using days.

    The Reformers recognized the 1260-year duration of the papacy from 538 to 1798 AD.
     
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  6. Daniel Martinovich

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    Daniel chapter 9 also. The 70 weeks are actually 70 weeks of years. It’s just used in the illustrative language of the Bible’s prophecy at times.
     
  7. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    d
     
  8. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    Sure, but the 'shabua' referred to Sabbath years in that case - not Sabbath days. So, when we read chapter 9 of Daniel we calculate years, not days. But when we read chapter 8 of Daniel (the 2300 days) we calculate days, not years. Yes?

    I agree with historicism's basic premise that prophecy has been gradually unfolding, but the year-day theory worries me a bit.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about its use in the other cited verses?
     
  10. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    As far as I know about Daniel 8 yes. It’s days.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the day-year principle is applicable to Daniel 8, as it is to Daniel 7 and Daniel 9, the duration should be 2,300 years. The challenge is in determining its starting date. The SDA interpretation places that coincident with the seventy weeks starting date of 457 BC, but I don't see any particular evidence for doing so. The calculated end date of 1844 came and went uneventfully, at least terrestrially.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  12. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    Historicism got hijacked by some of the 19th century cults. It’s unfortunate, Because it is a better model, in my opinion, than Preterism and/or Futurism. I called myself a ‘new style historicist’ for a while, but nobody knew what I was talking about. So I change my handle to a-millennial.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  13. Daniel Martinovich

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    I think there has to be a valid reason to turn days into years. I don't think it is a principle throughout scripture. A great example is my first post on this thread.

    That number 1260 days, 3.5 months, 42 weeks is used six times in relationship to the Roman Empire. It all starts, or is first used however in Daniel 7.24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    Daniel 7 is not a prophecy about the end times of the Old Covenant Age but a prophecy about the end times of the age of the four gentile empires. The reason the Bible is even prophesying about the end of the age of those four Gentile empires is because of the age that would follow it. The age of promise. It is giving us the date when the age where all the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints would begin to be fulfilled. Earthly Promises by the way that were never fulfilled in their generations. So like I said. The capitol of the Roman Empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. There never ceased to be an emperor on the throne until the city fell to the Ottomans and the last Roman emperor killed in 1453 AD. What transpired that brought the change so that nations could meet the conditions for the saints living within their borders to be able to aspire to possess the earthly promises of God? Right when the empire fell commercial printing presses came on line in Europe and within decades, for the first time in human history Bibles got into the hands of the general public. This happened in northern Europe. Another first in human history: A people armed with scripture were able to win their freedom and influnce their nations toward operating under various degrees of Biblical principle. Been spreading ever since.
    So if you take 1260 years off of 1453 AD when the fourth empire ended what do you get? You get the first year of the reign of the little, 11th horn in Daniel chapter 7. I'll show you that in a post below as this is to long.
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I find the Reformation understandings and identifications to be the most credible. Those fuelled its ultimate spiritual success.
     
  15. Daniel Martinovich

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    Septimius Severus (193-211 A.D.) Roman Emperors - DIR Septimius Severus
    In 193 AD The Emperor Commodus was murdered. Pertinax assumed the emperor-ship without contest but was killed by the Pratorain guard when he got in between a mutiny of some of the guard. Didius Julianus assumed the membership by being the highest bidder for it. In the mean time Severus's army proclaimed him emperor and Niger's army proclaimed him emperor. Severes marched on Rome, killed the Julianus and took the throne.
    So according to Daniel 7 three emperors fell before the 11th of ten emperors. (All in 193 Ad)

    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
    Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    But that is not all. He also subdued three. He, in war subdued the emperor Julianus, then Niger then Albinus who all claimed the throne.
    Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
    But that is not all either. He overthrew 3 dynasties of Italian emperors. Severus was an African. His son another African, the next emperor made all people within the empire except slaves Roman Citizens. Which was a huge deal. From that point on Italian emperors began fade away.

    But that is not all.

    Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    There was very little imperial persecution of Christians with the ten emperors before Severus which included Romes 5 "good" emperors. That was amazing since part of the Roman government was the Babylonian priesthood who were constantly urging imperial persecution. Severus was a huge pagan though and passed the worlds first blasphemy law. Death penalty for converting to Christ. That was the beginning of the war against the saints that continued for 1260 years. (As protestants well know.)
     
  16. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well if you'll read what I said. The reason for success was the fact that the Bible made it into the hands of the reformers and the general public. That never happened before and began immediately at the fall of the Roman empire 1453 AD.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I sure you're aware, the Protestant Reformation associated the war against the saints with the apostate papacy, the death toll from which reached tens of millions over the centuries of its dominance.
     
  18. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    Severus was a nasty piece of work for sure, but I dont see any proof that he was Daniels 'little horn.' The 1260 years to AD 1453 seems coincidental to me.
     
  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Yes and I am sure you know that the protestants were the first ones in 1400 years to actually win the war. Or at least fight it to a stand still. There were dozens of reformations throughout those centuries. Same miracles, revivals, same doctrines but all were overcome militarily in the end. Conquered and wiped out. Not just by the the Holy Roman empire and the Papacy but in every nation or area Christians existed. The only difference was that printed materials went from the tens of thousands a year of hand or wood plate printed books and pamphlets to the tens of millions a year and the authorities could not stop the Bible from getting into the hands of the general public. Northern Europeans were the first people in the history of mankind to be armed with something no one else ever had like they did. Bibles. That is why they overcame. God knew this thousands of years in advance and told us when the saints would begin to overcome. when the fourth of those four empires ended.

    He just didn't tell us how and many a believer thought is was going to be by God riding into town on a white horse and wiping out the wicked. Nope. Turns out it was through the influnce of the Word of God transforming nations and those nations with Gods' help winning their freedoms and therefore the promises.
     
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I guess fulfilling the details of the prophecy about the little horn precisely isn't considered proof? This is new to you so I understand your hesitancy. but give it time. God will work inside your spirit on the matter even if you can't intellectually see it or accept it right now.

    PS. It's 1453 minus 1260 years, not 193 +1260 years. No one would ever find this out without hindsight. The Bible gave us the end date. When they fourth empire ended. Didn't give us the 193 AD date. it just so happens it fits.
     
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