100% reliable teaching?

[MichaelGWBurke]

Today (and the last time I went to the Church I attended today) we asked God to grant that "His word, and only His word, be spoken and heard."

Even though I've only been to two Sunday services, I suspect they ask that every Sunday, I know that when I asked that I was hoping God would really grant it, and I would assume that there were others there hoping the same thing.

And this awakens a question I've always had, because I've always had trouble understanding the passage/passages that say the following (or something like it.)

If two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask in my name, it shall be granted them; for wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name, there am I in your mist.

So, if this Pastor, his associates, and their entire congregation ask God to grant that "His word, and only His word be spoken and heard" during the service on Sundays (and I sincerely join them in asking that), can I assume that the teaching I hear there during the service is 100% correct?

How do Charismatics/Pentecostals view this?

(And please forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, and be aware that I'll probably ask more.)

 

[FoundInGrace]

Compare the teaching against your own reading of the Bible and the things God has taught you yourself through His Word that you know that you know that you know are true about God. The more we read the Word and put it into practice the easier it is to discern between correct and dodgy teaching.

I would say after you've compared it with what you are reading yourself in the Bible when you have prayed that prayer then you can assume that the Holy Spirit will let you know if the teaching you are hearing is wrong.

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

Thank you, but I don't think you understand my question.

One of the things I've read (myself) in scripture is that Jesus said (in Matt. 18, verse 18 or 19, I think) that:

If two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask in my name, it shall be granted them; for wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name, there am I in your mist.

We all asked that "God's word, and only His word, be spoken" during Sunday service, and we all say "in the name of Jesus Christ Thy Son, Amen," so (on the basis of that passage in Matt. 18) shouldn’t that absolutely guarantee that anything taught in that Church during a Sunday service is 100% correct?

Isn't that what Jesus was promising us there?

(And if that's not what that passage means, what does it mean--how do you understand it?)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today (and the last time I went to the Church I attended today) we asked God to grant that "His word, and only His word, be spoken and heard."

Even though I've only been to two Sunday services, I suspect they ask that every Sunday, I know that when I asked that I was hoping God would really grant it, and I would assume that there were others there hoping the same thing.

And this awakens a question I've always had, because I've always had trouble understanding the passage/passages that say the following (or something like it.)

If two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask in my name, it shall be granted them; for wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name, there am I in your mist.

So, if this Pastor, his associates, and their entire congregation ask God to grant that "His word, and only His word be spoken and heard" during the service on Sundays (and I sincerely join them in asking that), can I assume that the teaching I hear there during the service is 100% correct?

How do Charismatics/Pentecostals view this?

(And please forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, and be aware that I'll probably ask more.)

I'd say "no" you cannot assume anything when human flesh is involved. I think many churches misunderstand these verses.

I like to look at scripture from a Hebrew perspective. Here is how the scripture is worded in the One New Man version: Matt 18:18-20 "Truly I say to you: whatever you would bind upon the Earth will already have been bound in heaven with ongoing effect, and whatever you would loose upon the Earth will already have been loosed in heaven with ongoing effect. Again truly I say to you that if two of you on the Earth would agree concerning any matter, whatever would be asked, it would happen for them before My Father, the One in the heavens. For where there are two or three who have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst."

* To bind is a Hebrew idiom meaning to forbid. Binding and loosing refer specifically to the dietary, Sabbath, and other regulations, including civil law, as well as to spiritual things.
* To loose is a Hebrew idiom meaning to permit.
* The tenses here mean that the effect of the binding or loosing goes on forever.

I found this article quite interesting as well: Binding and Loosing

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

Thank you.

I get what you're saying about the binding and loosing part (and I think the continental reformers pointed out the verb tense back during the reformation.)

What I don't get is the second part:

Again truly I say to you that if two of you on the Earth would agree concerning any matter, whatever would be asked, it would happen for them before My Father, the One in the heavens. For where there are two or three who have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

I think there were at least 40 of us who agreed in asking God to grant that "His word, and only His word" be spoken in Church today (and I would suspect about the same number unite in asking that every Sunday), so hasn't God bound Himself to make sure everything said during those services is correct?

Doesn't the second part of that verse you quoted (even as it reads in the Hebrew version) bind Him to do that (given that we all agreed in asking Him to (and closed our petition in the name of His Son)?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

No. While it's not a bad prayer to pray, using this section of scripture to do so is not what that scripture is about.

The context of those verses are at the end of a section where Jesus is teaching about how to handle one brother who has sinned against another brother (or sister). As a whole the verses are from Matt 18:15-20.

It's talking about church discipline. Jesus said that if you have someone who sins against you then you are to go to them privately and try to work it out. If he refuses to admit fault then you bring one or two more witnesses to help work things out. If the sinning brother did not make things right in the presence of two or three witnesses then the case was brought before the church. If he refused to listen to the churches decision then he was thrown out of the church.

It is in this setting that Jesus said that the Father would grant the request of two or more who gather together in Christ’s name and are in agreement. Agreement on what? On disciplining the erring brother. That’s what this passage is about. Not about forcing Gods hand to answer whatever you can get a group of people to tell God they want.

 

[murjahel]

In spiritual warfare, we are going to encounter the devils, and all their devices to work against mankind. Their goal is evil. Their method often is to give substitutes for what God offers. We need to use the weaponry given us by God, and test all things that we encounter. We need to know the truth from a lie, the real from the false, the doctrinal from the heretical.


The Bible tells us to:
"TEST ALL THINGS; HOLD FAST WHAT IS GOOD."
I Thessalonians 5:21

We are commanded to 'test all', not just part, not just what is not claimed to be infallible.

The intent of the minister to preach only truth, and to pray such, and to have others pray such way, is not a guarantee that everything is truth. If his/her heart is right, the Holy Spirit is attempting to lead them to truth, but it is not a guarantee that their words are infallible.


II John 7
"FOR MANY DECEIVERS HAVE GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD..."

There are some who are totally 'deceivers' and have been deceived themselves, and who thought they may pray for 'truth', when it arrives to them, they reject it. Some others are deceivers on purpose.

Peter said he would never deny the Lord, and did so the same night. All of the other disciples agreed with him, and they had more than two... all agreed, and yet, Peter denied Jesus three times that same night.

The binding and loosing passage refers to other things, not to some ability to pray a prayer and then have infallible truth always ... We are to 'study to show ourselves approved,' we are to 'meditate', we are to 'pray' and seek truth, and be led by the Spirit, and test all and see what is good... It is a process that Scripture teaches us... not a one step cure to false teachings.

Self-exaltation of anyone claiming that their message is infallible and everyone must be in total agreement with what they say, sounds like the self exaltation of a mini-pope, and that is not the answer.

If people believe they are "gods", then they may absolve themselves from all wrong conduct, they can claim to be infallible--because a "god" can do no wrong.

People want to lose the word "sin" and lose the need to 'test all things' and the formation of mini-infallible groups, may give them a small crowd of total accepters, but there is error in that idea. We are told that in the last days, there will be many 'fall away', due to 'doctrines of devils'. One early doctrine of devils was when Eve was told that there was a new truth that would make her wise... She did not test that one... she fell... we all suffer from Adam
s willingness to believe that same lie second hand... Now ages later, we need to test all we are told...

Satan also tried to exalt himself to God's throne. "Self exaltation" of claming to have all truth, no error, started before Adam was created. The devil exalted himself in that kind of pride.

We have a faith in the new covenant, where we all are priests, all have access to God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We all are to go directly to them, and to the written Word of God, to find God's answers. Others may help, but we are to 'test all things' that they say. One is even to test all that I say... I do not deny that.

Before every sermon or teaching time in my ministry, I prayed that God would not let me say one word that might hurt anyone's relationship with God. I prayed that all my words would be truth. I studied hard before each sermon, I kept testing all I would say... and still, as I look back now, I see some places where I erred... Others prayed with me at those times, but God still had me in a school of learning, and that learning is still going on...

No, do not trust the infallibility of anyone... Each of us have direct access to the Lord, test all things with Him. I even test the truth and accuracy of the Bible translations, checking the original Greek and original Hebrew to verify if it was translated correctly.

To be infallible, one would have to be 'all knowing', omniscient. Only God can claim that.. we are still learning, and what we haven't learned from God yet, we can be in error upon that... We will never be omniscient... We will always go to the Lord, even in the eternity ahead, to continue our education of His all knowing.

If any minister claims to be infallible, I would run like a gazelle to get away from that message... I am glad my television has a remote control, it makes it easy to get away from those few who claim to have infallibility.
It is a religion that wants to put self on the throne of God, just as the devil tried millennia ago.

I Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed (prosecho = bring near, give attention to, to be addicted to) to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils..."

Matthew 24:4
"Take heed that no man deceive you."

 

[rick357]

Thank you.

I get what you're saying about the binding and loosing part (and I think the continental reformers pointed out the verb tense back during the reformation.)

What I don't get is the second part:

Again truly I say to you that if two of you on the Earth would agree concerning any matter, whatever would be asked, it would happen for them before My Father, the One in the heavens. For where there are two or three who have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

I think there were at least 40 of us who agreed in asking God to grant that "His word, and only His word" be spoken in Church today (and I would suspect about the same number unite in asking that every Sunday), so hasn't God bound Himself to make sure everything said during those services is correct?

Doesn't the second part of that verse you quoted (even as it reads in the Hebrew version) bind Him to do that (given that we all agreed in asking Him to (and closed our petition in the name of His Son)?

The key phrase is " in my name "....this is not something we invoke....but his audiancewho were jews would have understood the referance
*[[Num 6:22-27]] RNKJV*
And יהוה spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

יהוה bless thee, and keep thee:

יהוה make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

יהוה lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Notice that everthing hear has YHWH as its source....in NT Jesus is our high priest so he puts this name on us
So when we are trusting completly in him to keep us by his blessing
When we are relying completely on his gift of the Spirit living through us and making us one with him
When we are resting completly in the peace his death has brought between ourselves and YHWH....only then do we ask "in his name"

Further...

*[[Mat 7:7-11]] RNKJV*
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The point is truth is not something you learn as a fact but something that is known in a living experiential way....therefor it is a process which is why ask..seek..knock is a verb that is continuous.
Think of Moses...when he first became aware he would deliver Gods people he had so much of Egypt's teaching in him he committed murder...some one once said it took four days to get Moses out of Egypt but it took 40 years to get Egypt out of Moses....consider this at year 40 Moses thought he could do Gods work by his own hand...at year 80 he felt he was unable without his brother...at 120 with every situation he laid before God...
We may recieve from God but we dont always know the why or how....but fear not.... only believe.

 

[JGGray6]

That prayer is a plea to God, and I would say that it is probable that is what meant for other things. Also, God rarely answers prayer right away (he answers them right away, but the results don't come right away).

 

[Norah63]

No one can box God in by quoting words. Faith is what pleases God.
Little faith is a start, then build yourselves up in the Word (hearing Jesus)
If we have doubts about anything, then we are doubleminded on the subject, unstable in all our ways about that topic. At our home we call it second guessing ourselves, its a circular trap.
It's not so much about the speakers, as it is the hearers. Does that make sense?

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

That prayer is a plea to God, and I would say that it is probable that is what meant for other things. Also, God rarely answers prayer right away (he answers them right away, but the results don't come right away).

Thank you.

No one can box God in by quoting words. Faith is what pleases God.
Little faith is a start, then build yourselves up in the Word (hearing Jesus)
If we have doubts about anything, then we are doubleminded on the subject, unstable in all our ways about that topic. At our home we call it second guessing ourselves, its a circular trap.
It's not so much about the speakers, as it is the hearers. Does that make sense?

Not sure.

The passage in Matt. 18 doesn't mention anything about faith.

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

If any minister claims to be infallible, I would run like a gazelle to get away from that message...

He doesn't claim that, but I've never understood that passage in Matt. 18 (or others like it), and we did all ask God to grant that "His word, and only His word" be spoken in Church (and closed our prayer in the name of The Son.)

Before every sermon or teaching time in my ministry, I prayed that God would not let me say one word that might hurt anyone's relationship with God. I prayed that all my words would be truth... and still, as I look back now, I see some places where I erred... Others prayed with me at those times

And I'm still trying to understand what's meant by that promise in Matt. 18?

What's meant by asking "in the name" of Jesus?

If you prayed that all your words be true, others prayed with you, and you closed your prayer "in the name of Jesus," how could God have still allowed you to make errors?

I was just re-reading this recently.

Charles Gore – “Many people have a very strangely childish notion, that ‘praying in the name of Christ’ means simply the addition of the words ‘through Jesus Christ our Lord’ at the end of their prayers. But depend upon it, they do not by adding these words, or any words, bring it about that their prayers should be in the name of Christ. To pray in the name of Christ means to pray in such a way as represents Christ. The representative always must speak in the spirit and meaning of those for whom he speaks. If Christ is our representative, that must be because He speaks our wishes, or what we ought to make our wishes; and if we are to pray in the name of Christ, that means that we are, however far off, expressing His wishes and intentions.”
http://hopefaithprayer.com/prayernew/prayer-quotes/

Could this guy have been close to the mark here?

Is that the answer?

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

The key phrase is " in my name "....this is not something we invoke....but his audience who were jews would have understood the reference
*[[Num 6:22-27]] RNKJV*
And יהוה spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

יהוה bless thee, and keep thee:

יהוה make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

יהוה lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Notice that everthing hear has YHWH as its source....in NT Jesus is our high priest so he puts this name on us
So when we are trusting completly in him to keep us by his blessing
When we are relying completely on his gift of the Spirit living through us and making us one with him
When we are resting completly in the peace his death has brought between ourselves and YHWH....only then do we ask "in his name"

Further...

*[[Mat 7:7-11]] RNKJV*
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The point is truth is not something you learn as a fact but something that is known in a living experiential way....therefor it is a process which is why ask..seek..knock is a verb that is continuous.
Think of Moses...when he first became aware he would deliver Gods people he had so much of Egypt's teaching in him he committed murder...some one once said it took four days to get Moses out of Egypt but it took 40 years to get Egypt out of Moses....consider this at year 40 Moses thought he could do Gods work by his own hand...at year 80 he felt he was unable without his brother...at 120 with every situation he laid before God...
We may recieve from God but we dont always know the why or how....but fear not.... only believe.

Thank you.

That makes sense to me (and sounds a lot like what I think Gore was trying to say.)

 

[rick357]

Sorry forgot to attach Gores statment.

Forgive me but I agree with much of what he has written but Im not sure as a whole of his conclusion...this is the drawback of something written...the living is a much better communication.....let me rephrase and see if we agree on meaning...
The phrase "in the name" can not be used as a signature to validate our desires from God...but proper use of that name has its origin from God in us...
*[[Psa 37:3-6]] RNKJV*
Trust in יהוה, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

Delight thyself also in יהוה; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Commit thy way unto יהוה; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

Trust..delight..commit. All toward God echoed in Jesus saying ask..seek..knock....
When we say "let only your truth be spoken" if it is a request then it includes our awarness of our own lack....if we first trust...then desire he places the desire in our heart....that desire for truth to be spoken is from him
And yet the "today" is problematic...the spirit leads us into all truth....this indicates a process not a lightning strike...for we are taught line apon line precept apon precept
If I had a cancer in me and the doctor told me it would take twelve weeks of treatments to remove it....then on the day I show up for a treatment I tell the technician the doctor said give it all to me today....would I be speaking in the name of that doctor...not even if my whole family said it with me.

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

Sorry forgot to attach Gores statment.

Forgive me but I agree with much of what he has written but Im not sure as a whole of his conclusion...this is the drawback of something written...the living is a much better communication.....let me rephrase and see if we agree on meaning...
The phrase "in the name" can not be used as a signature to validate our desires from God...but proper use of that name has its origin from God in us...
*[[Psa 37:3-6]] RNKJV*
Trust in יהוה, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

Delight thyself also in יהוה; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Commit thy way unto יהוה; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

Trust..delight..commit. All toward God echoed in Jesus saying ask..seek..knock....
When we say "let only your truth be spoken" if it is a request then it includes our awarness of our own lack....if we first trust...then desire he places the desire in our heart....that desire for truth to be spoken is from him
And yet the "today" is problematic...the spirit leads us into all truth....this indicates a process not a lightning strike...for we are taught line apon line precept apon precept
If I had a cancer in me and the doctor told me it would take twelve weeks of treatments to remove it....then on the day I show up for a treatment I tell the technician the doctor said give it all to me today....would I be speaking in the name of that doctor...not even if my whole family said it with me.

I think you and Gore are saying the same thing--and if you're right, asking God to give us something (like all truth) all at once, that He wants us to work for (in a process of study, and prayer, and trusting Him) wouldn't be asking in Christ's name (or by His authority.)

Isn't that what you're both saying?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

There is no such thing as 100% reliable teaching. If a pastor wishes to get across to his congregation that they have perfect teaching, he will probably make a statement like this pastor did.

Anyone that is a sinner, yet has so much pride as to think their teaching is 100% correct has a narcassitic streak in them. I would run very quickly away and never go to that church again.

 

[rick357]

I think you and Gore are saying the same thing--and if you're right, asking God to give us something (like all truth) all at once, that He wants us to work for (in a process of study, and prayer, and trusting Him) wouldn't be asking in Christ's name (or by His authority.)

Isn't that what you're both saying?

Yes I am saying that adding" in his name "does not mean the request was in his name
But with this note...nothing from God comes by our work...but it comes by his work in us...

Lest any man should boast.

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

There is no such thing as 100% reliable teaching. If a pastor wishes to get across to his congregation that they have perfect teaching, he will probably make a statement like this pastor did.

He didn't make a statement, or claim any infallibility.

It was a prayer request, and I believe some here have made similar requests.

Before every sermon or teaching time in my ministry, I prayed that God would not let me say one word that might hurt anyone's relationship with God. I prayed that all my words would be truth. I studied hard before each sermon, I kept testing all I would say... and still, as I look back now, I see some places where I erred... Others prayed with me at those times

The question about the passage in Matt. 18 (and others like it) was something I came up with (and have always had difficulty understanding.)

 

[MichaelGWBurke]

Yes I am saying that adding" in his name "does not mean the request was in his name
But with this note...nothing from God comes by our work...but it comes by his work in us...

Lest any man should boast.

Thank you.

P.S. I just thought of something that I believe supports what you and Gore are saying about "in the name" being more than a tag on to our prayers, and it's something many congregations say during their services--"blessed is He that comes in the name of The Lord."

It comes from the Psalms and the Gospels, and (since it's possible to take the Lord's name in vain) I don't think the meaning is that anyone using the name of the Lord is blessed, so I think that kinda supports what you're saying (if that makes any sense?)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The key phrase is " in my name "....this is not something we invoke....but his audiancewho were jews would have understood the referance
*[[Num 6:22-27]] RNKJV*
And יהוה spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

יהוה bless thee, and keep thee:

יהוה make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

יהוה lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Notice that everthing hear has YHWH as its source....in NT Jesus is our high priest so he puts this name on us
So when we are trusting completly in him to keep us by his blessing
When we are relying completely on his gift of the Spirit living through us and making us one with him
When we are resting completly in the peace his death has brought between ourselves and YHWH....only then do we ask "in his name"

Further...

*[[Mat 7:7-11]] RNKJV*
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The point is truth is not something you learn as a fact but something that is known in a living experiential way....therefor it is a process which is why ask..seek..knock is a verb that is continuous.
Think of Moses...when he first became aware he would deliver Gods people he had so much of Egypt's teaching in him he committed murder...some one once said it took four days to get Moses out of Egypt but it took 40 years to get Egypt out of Moses....consider this at year 40 Moses thought he could do Gods work by his own hand...at year 80 he felt he was unable without his brother...at 120 with every situation he laid before God...
We may recieve from God but we dont always know the why or how....but fear not.... only believe.

Much better scriptures to be used for God hearing us and responding.