• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

100 Questions About "The Passion of The Christ"

mrversatile48

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2004
2,220
85
77
Merseyside
✟2,810.00
Faith
Christian
Cry for 'politically correct crucifixion' - By Hal Lindsey - www.hallindsey.com

As expected, Mel Gibson's film, "The Passion of the Christ," has touched off a firestorm of controversy. But there has been at least one surprise. Violence-embracing Hollywood – and its media supporters – are wailing over the "excessive violence" of "The Passion." Would you believe this from people who have praised and honored violent movies like "Pulp Fiction," "Scarface," "The Godfather," "Private Ryan," "The Gladiator," etc.

The film has also revealed the great difference between liberal ministers and theologians and conservative ones who believe in taking the Bible at face value. Liberals believe that the Bible must be interpreted allegorically and adopted to the "sensitivities" of modern society.

Liberals protest that they are offended at "the inaccurate and unnecessary violence." One minister even said that reverence for a bloody Jesus, gruesome nails and brutal cross does not bring atonement for sin.

It appears that an otherwise violence-tolerant media and film industry has become "puritanical" and wants to "sanitize" the brutality of Christ's crucifixion. Never mind that this is the way it is graphically described in the Gospels.

As a matter of fact, the Messiah's sufferings are graphically predicted in the Old Testament.

A thousand years before Jesus' birth, the Holy Spirit predicted through David the precise sufferings of hanging on a cross. And this was at least 700 years before the horrible execution by crucifixion was adopted.

It is predicted in Psalm 22, which begins with the very words that Jesus cried from the cross. The Gospels even record the exact Hebrew words that He used, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, '"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Matthew 27:46)

I believe this was repeated in three Gospels to point the reader back to Psalm 22 to get the answer to His rhetorical question. The spirit of the Messiah answers his own question, "Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel" (Psalm 22:3). It was at this moment the guilt for the sins of the world were put upon Messiah Jesus. Sin separated Him from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Note, He addressed them both, "My God, My God ..." God the Son was hanging on the cross.

Then His sufferings are described, "I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots."

There was no form of execution in Israel where the victim's "hands and feet were pierced." This was clearly a prediction of the Messiah's sufferings in crucifixion.

He is "poured out like water" – the profuse perspiration from suffering and the Middle Eastern sun.

"All of My bones are out of joint" – this happened from the weight of the body hanging over time.

"My tongue cleaves to my jaws" – the intense thirst from the suffering in heat. Jesus, as predicted said, "I thirst."

"I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me." – Jesus was hung nude upon the cross and his body was ripped to shreds.

"They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots." – The Roman soldiers did not want to destroy his seamless tunic, so they cast lots for it at the foot of the cross.

In this prophecy, the gruesome sufferings of the Messiah's execution by crucifixion are described in detail.

Isaiah predicted something else concerning Jesus the Messiah that is extremely relevant to this uproar over the "Passion" film's emphasis upon His suffering.

Seven hundred and fifty years before Jesus' birth, Isaiah wrote, "See, my servant will act wisely; He will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him – his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness – so He will startle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand" (Isaiah 52:13-15 NIV).

Note that it predicts this servant of God's appearance (literally referring to his face) will be terribly disfigured and His body marred beyond human likeness.

This same prophecy continues in Isaiah 53, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being [fell] upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

The Hebrew prophet predicts that this Servant will be rejected and will suffer for the sins of his (Israelite) people. Once again, His terrible suffering and wounds are emphasized.

All of the four Gospels give great emphasis to their description of the tremendous physical punishment inflicted upon Jesus. The flogging with the Roman "cat of nine tails", which had bits of metal and bone in the leather straps that tore the flesh off the victim. The repeated punching with fists by the Roman soldiers, who were well known for the physical strength. The merciless forced march carrying his cross. It is all detailed graphically in the Gospels. Jesus' face no longer looked human by the time he was nailed to the cross, just as Isaiah predicted.

God did this in order to show just how much it cost Him to pay for the penalty of our sins set himself righteously free to forgive anyone who will accept His pardon as a gift. It cost God everything to make free the pardon He purchased for all who will own up to their sin and receive it.

Jesus gave us a memorial so that we would continually remember His death and what it accomplished. It is called "Communion." The Apostle Paul taught about this, "And when He [Jesus] had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." (1 Corinthians 11:24-26)

So when we see Mel Gibson's film and its violence, let's remember that this is basically the way it was. And remember that it was the Son of God's love that caused Him to voluntarily endure this for us, because He did not want us to perish under eternal damnation.
____________________________________________________________________

Why All The Violence? - Jack Kelley - www.gracethrufaith.com

That's the question non-believers often ask after seeing "The Passion Of The Christ" and it's a good one. Why does there have to be so much violence?

The easy answer pertains to the movie. There's so much violence in the movie because Mel Gibson wanted to make it as realistic a portrayal of actual events as possible. And even a cursory look at the people and the times tells you they were both very violent. Remember, some of their mass entertainment in those days involved watching humans being torn apart by wild animals for sport.

The Romans were oppressive conquerors who brooked absolutely no violation of their enforced peace, the "Pax Romana." Executions were public and hideously violent, and all punishment was bloody and life threatening. (The Apostle Paul, being a Roman citizen, was legally spared from the normal excruciatingly painful forms of execution because it was believed that Roman citizens were too good for that. He was merely beheaded.)

Who Started This?

But the Romans weren't the first, and by no means were they the most violent. The Assyrians, inventors of crucifixion, skinned people alive, chopped off their heads and mounted them on poles. The Babylonians threw Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednego live into a roaring furnace. They threw Daniel, an old man in his 80's, into a den of hungry lions. The Jews stretched Isaiah between two horses and sawed him in half. Mark was tied up and dragged into a fire to burn alive. Bartholomew was beaten with barrel staves, crucified and then beheaded. Peter was crucified upside down. Antipas was slowly roasted alive in a giant bronze kettle. Others were boiled alive, drawn and quartered, nailed to trees and all this in public. It was thought to be a deterrent to crime. And we think our death by injection is barbaric.

Three Theological Thorns

The harder answer pertains to theology, specifically the difficulty in making the punishment fit the crime. Sins are crimes against God and His need for justice requires punishment. Jesus came to Earth as the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29). So what do you have to do to adequately punish someone for all the sins of mankind? Man's sins are stacked up to the heavens, and God cannot ignore them.

We say, "He's God. He can do anything. Why doesn't He just forgive us?" The problem is, He's not like us. He can't express any of His attributes at the expense of any other one like we can. In other words He can't be arbitrary or two faced. If He wants to show mercy, His righteousness must first be satisfied. Before He can express His love for us, His needs for justice have to be met. If He wants to forgive our debts, somebody else has to pay.

It's said that about ½ of the people ever born are alive today. Each one of us has committed enough sin to warrant the death penalty. That means 12 billion people deserve to die for their sins, and a just God simply cannot overlook that. But because He so loves the world, He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) His Son would pay the penalty due us. So what does it take for God's justice to be served, so that out of His love for us he can purchase 12 billion pardons? (Remember that although many will go unclaimed, 12 billion pardons were purchased on the cross.)

I Hate It When That Happens

Second, what sort of suffering must one man endure to demonstrate how much God hates sin? In this age of Grace, we have such a candy coated perception of sin that we've forgotten how much God hates it. He HATES it. He destroyed well over a million people in the Great Flood because of their sins. He brought a nuclear holocaust on Sodom and Gommorrah because of their sins. What would He have to do to His Son to assuage His anger over all the sins in the history of mankind?

I Told You So

And then there's the issue of prophecy. To prove that He was the Messiah, Jesus had to fulfill all the prophecies about His life AND death. Some of them had been a matter of public record for nearly 1000 years when He arrived on Earth. Prophecies like these:

Your wrath has swept over me;
your terrors have destroyed me. All day long they surround me like a flood; they have completely engulfed me. You have taken my companions and loved ones from me; the darkness is my closest friend. (Psalm 88:16-18)

I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. (Isa 50:6)

Just as there were many who were appalled at him- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness- (Isa 52:14)

I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. (Psalm 22:14-18)


Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:4-6)

So There You Have It

Three huge problems to address. A lesser god would have washed his hands of us and gone away to let us die in our sins as we deserve. It took an unbelievable amount of punishment, punishment that in both intensity and duration exceeds what any other man has ever experienced, to make it possible for God to forgive us.

But Jesus in all His love for us agreed to endure it. And in all the blood and gore and pain and suffering let's not forget this one thing. It was sufficient. His last words from the cross when translated literally come out "Paid in full!" And the fact that three days later He walked out of the tomb, having conquered death, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that He had done it!

You see, if Jesus took upon Himself all the sins of the world as the prophecy above states (He literally became the physical embodiment of sin), and if God cannot abide the presence of sin, then the fact that He's is alive at the right hand of God today proves that the price He paid was sufficient. For if even one little sin from all those that ever have or ever will be committed by man remained unpaid at the cross, He'd still be in the grave.

But since He came out of the tomb, you can make absolutely certain that you will, too. For if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
 
Upvote 0

kdet

God lives in us
Jul 12, 2003
7,541
256
63
TX
Visit site
✟31,807.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'd like to get it just so I could understand some of the symbolism used in the film.
For instance...why did the two Marys sop up the blood of Jesus after His beating?
Second...who was the woman that wiped His face clean?
The more I think about the movie the more wuestions it raises..which is a good thing IMO :)
 
Upvote 0

TugOwar

Warrior for Christ
Feb 27, 2004
348
14
60
South Texas
Visit site
✟561.00
Faith
Christian
My son had a couple of questions after the film, I answered him the best I could. Let me get others opinions though.

What is the symbolism behind the snake, and the crushing there of by Jesus?
I said it was a basic symbol of Christs victory over sin/evil.

Why is the satan character shown moaning/screaming after the death of Christ?
I told my son that when Christ died, satan knew the ultimate price had been paid and that evil was defeated permanently and forever.

Were my answers close to being correct? What are your thoughts?

And like SweetKitty asked. Why did Mary and Mary mop up the blood after the scourging?
 
Upvote 0

TugOwar

Warrior for Christ
Feb 27, 2004
348
14
60
South Texas
Visit site
✟561.00
Faith
Christian
Second...who was the woman that wiped His face clean?

Did you notice after he wiped his face and gave the cloth back to her there was an image on the cloth that, to me, looked like the famed Shroud of Turan? I always thought the shroud was supposed to be part of the cloth Christ was wrapped with in the tomb.
 
Upvote 0

mrversatile48

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2004
2,220
85
77
Merseyside
✟2,810.00
Faith
Christian
From www.assistnews.net - by permission

MISSING THE POINT OF "THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST"?

By Marlene Bagnull
Special to ASSIST News Service

DREXEL HILL, PA (ANS) -- Debate is sure to continue for some time regarding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ.

Some Christians will continue to applaud it as a powerful depiction of Christ's suffering on mankind's behalf and a great soul-winning tool, although sadly, some like the moneychangers Jesus drove out of the temple, will miss the point and use it as an opportunity to sell religious trinkets and tee shirts.

Other Christians and non-Christians will continue to question its historical and biblical accuracy as well as Mr. Gibson's decision to focus only on the last twelve hours of Christ's life. Sadly, they may miss the point that Christ willingly chose to die for them.

There will be those who continue to criticize the "blood and the gore" even though no film can ever capture the excruciating six hours Jesus hung on the cross. Sadly, they also may miss the point that Jesus' suffering was purposeful compared to the gratuitous violence that has become the norm for box-office success.

Jews, remembering the atrocities done to them by "so-called Christians" throughout history will continue to fear that the movie will enflame anti-Semitism even though, from the opening line from Isaiah 53:5 (NLT), The Passion of the Christ makes it clear that "he was wounded and crushed for our sins." Sadly, they may miss the point that the true Gospel of Christ is about love not hate.

In the midst of all these debates, however, I'm concerned for the more than 80% of people in the United States who consider themselves to be Christians. Will they miss the point God wants them, personally, to get through The Passion of the Christ?

I cannot help but wonder if God has led Mr. Gibson to produce this movie for such a time as this when, as the Bible says, we have "forsaken our first love" (Revelation 2:5) and grown "lukewarm" in our faith (Revelation 3:6).

Is God giving American Christians one more opportunity to turn back to him before he removes his hand of blessing and protection from our nation - a nation that once gave the Ten Commandments an honored place in our courthouses and affirmed "In God We Trust"? (Pictured: Mel Gibson with Jim Caviezel in the filming of The Passion of The Christ).

I also cannot help but wonder if the reason The Passion of the Christ makes us uncomfortable is because it foreshadows the persecution Christians in America may soon be called on to endure for the cause of Christ. "Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you," Jesus said (John 15:20 NLT). With the persecution of Christians dramatically increasing around the world, how can American Christians expect to be immune?

Just as Jesus chose to take up his cross, each man and woman, boy and girl, must choose to take up their cross and follow him or else choose to deny him. There is no middle ground.

"Anyone who isn't helping me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me," Jesus said (Luke 11:23 NLT). We cannot compartmentalize our faith but must stand for Christ in every aspect of our daily lives and the life of our nation.

Passivity is not an option or lack of knowledge an excuse for those who have seen The Passion of the Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both posts refer to questions, as in the thread title

& both are far less than the 90 pages linked in the 1st post here

Could say different strokes for different diagnoses of overboarding?

Or getting on swimmingly in the Liver-pool of life?

Enjoy the film!

Ian
 
Upvote 0

KennySe

Habemus Papam!
Aug 6, 2003
5,450
253
61
Visit site
✟29,554.00
Faith
Catholic
sweetkitty said:
I'd like to get it just so I could understand some of the symbolism used in the film.
For instance...why did the two Marys sop up the blood of Jesus after His beating?

That is sacred blood. The blood of God.

Second...who was the woman that wiped His face clean?

In the final (and full) credits, her name is Seraphia.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/fullcredits

She is most known by the name "Veronica" (true icon).

*****

What is most interesting to me, is that both of your questions are connected, as they are the same subject: relics.

2 Kings 13:20-21
Acts 5:15-16
Acts 19:11-12

*****

There is a thread at OBOB on the "imagery". You are invited to participate.
http://www.christianforums.com/t97918

Peace.
 
Upvote 0