100% God and 100% man

[music4two]

Though it may seem strange to some Christians, I really want to become like Christ. I think we are commanded to use Him as our example.
So I am looking at everything that Christ did and asking myself questions about how I can do those things.
Which of the many things that Christ did and accomplished were due to His deity and which are due to His humanity? How do you know?

 

[Stryder06]

Well when in heaven Christ did everything through His own power, but on earth He did it through the power of God the Father. It was an example of how if our faith is strong and true, and if we believe in the Father than we too can do such miracles as Christ did. This is seen in the workings of the disciples.

 

[music4two]

Well when in heaven Christ did everything through His own power, but on earth He did it through the power of God the Father. It was an example of how if our faith is strong and true, and if we believe in the Father than we too can do such miracles as Christ did. This is seen in the workings of the disciples.

But the disciples were not 100% God and Man.
Ar you saying that when Christ was on Earth He was not God but only human?
If I have faith that is strong and true will I attain another nature of deity like Christ? Will I be 100% God and 100% man?
What happened to the memories and experiances of Christ from the time in heaven when He "did everything through His own power"?

 

[GraceSeeker]

Though it may seem strange to some Christians, I really want to become like Christ. I think we are commanded to use Him as our example.
So I am looking at everything that Christ did and asking myself questions about how I can do those things.
Which of the many things that Christ did and accomplished were due to His deity and which are due to His humanity? How do you know?

It terms of our ability to emulate Christ it really makes no difference, for he himself gave us the following promise:
John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Now, I suspect that since in his incarnation Jesus emptied himself and took on the nature of humanity (Phil 2:6-7) that all that Jesus did he did not in his own power, but in the same power that he bequeathed to us all, namely the power of the Holy Spirit.

But, to answer the question how can we do what Christ did? Jesus himself tells you, have faith in him.

 

[music4two]

It terms of our ability to emulate Christ it really makes no difference, for he himself gave us the following promise:
John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Now, I suspect that since in his incarnation Jesus emptied himself and took on the nature of humanity (Phil 2:6-7) that all that Jesus did he did not in his own power, but in the same power that he bequeathed to us all, namely the power of the Holy Spirit.

But, to answer the question how can we do what Christ did? Jesus himself tells you, have faith in him.

According to some interpretation of scripture Christ was responsible for creating the heavens and the Earth. Can we do that too?
Your refference to Phil 2 Jesus gave up his deity to become man. Can God stop being God? Can He change from a being incapable of temptation to one who can be tempted?
Was Jesus not God while on his time on Earth?
What happened to Christ memories and experiances from his prior life in heaven?

 

[GraceSeeker]

According to some interpretation of scripture Christ was responsible for creating the heavens and the Earth. Can we do that too?

No, we cannot create from nothingness. (It also wasn't one of the things that the disciples had seen Jesus do.)

Your refference to Phil 2 Jesus gave up his deity to become man. Can God stop being God?

Read it again. It does not say that Jesus gave up his diety or that he stopped being God. But that he emptied himself. Emptied himself of what?

Can He change from a being incapable of temptation to one who can be tempted?

Why do you assert that God is incapable of being tempted? There are plenty of verses which speak of God being tempted, even tempted by men.

Was Jesus not God while on his time on Earth?

Of course he was.

What happened to Christ memories and experiances from his prior life in heaven?

I don't know. Scripture doesn't say, unless they are part of what he gave up in Philippians 2.

 

[music4two]

No, we cannot create from nothingness. (It also wasn't one of the things that the disciples had seen Jesus do.)

Reply -
There is no word or concept in Hebrew for creating something from nothing. The Hebrew word "bara" literally menas to fill up or fatten. It speaks of bringing into fruition or completion.

Read it again. It does not say that Jesus gave up his diety or that he stopped being God. But that he emptied himself. Emptied himself of what?

Reply
The context of Phil 2 is about attitude. Have this dame atitude in you that was in christ. So christ emptied himself os any sedie to seek his own will or desires. This verse has nothing to do with Christ giving up deity or power of any kind.

Why do you assert that God is incapable of being tempted? There are plenty of verses which speak of God being tempted, even tempted by men.
Of course he was.
Reply -
Book chapter and verse please.

I don't know. Scripture doesn't say, unless they are part of what he gave up in Philippians 2.

Reply - always the same with trinitarianism. It ends up a mystery.

 

[BrendanMark]

That people prefer their simple answers to the infinite divine mystery does not make the mystery go away, nor make the infinite accessible to finite, human understanding.

The closest English equivalent of theōsis is “deification.” In Christian theology, theōsis refers to the transformation of believers into the likeness of God. Of course, Christian monotheism goes against any literal “god making” of believers. Rather, the NT speaks of a transformation of mind, a metamorphosis of character, a redefinition of selfhood, and an imitation of God. Most of these passages are tantalizingly brief, and none spells out the concept in detail.
Finlan, Steven – Theōsis [Princeton Theological Monograph Series, 2006, p. 1]


Through the Scriptures Christ’s teaching is implanted in our hearts, assimilating us to God and making us divine. The way this happens is set out is a passage in the sixth book of the Stromateis. According to Plato the truth can only be learned from God or from his progeny (Tim. 40de). In the Scriptures we are taught the truth by the Son of God himself, first through the prophecies and then more clearly in the Gospels. Even in the Gospels, however, the truth is veiled, for Christ always expressed the divine mysteries in parables. The Scriptures do not yield their meaning without an authoritative guide, and that guide in the Church’s rule of faith (τον εκκλησιαστικον κανόνα). Interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Church’s rule reveals the truth taught by Christ, which is divine knowledge (γνωσιν θείαν), leading to prudence or practical wisdom (φρόνησιν). Divine knowledge and practical wisdom are roughly equivalent, says Clement, ‘and are found in those who being deified’ (εν τοις θεοποιουμένοις). They are divine and contemplative, unlike self-control (σωφροσύνη), for example, which is merely human—an imperfect practical wisdom, so to speak—and therefore render a person like God (Strom. 6.125.4)
Russell, Norman – The Doctrine of Deification in the Greek Patristic Tradition [Oxford Early Christian Studies, 2004, p. 125-126]

 

[GraceSeeker]

Reply - always the same with trinitarianism. It ends up a mystery.

Reply always the same with those who reject that the Christian scriptures teach the incaranation, they simply refuse to wrestle with what they cannot understand.

 

[music4two]

Reply always the same with those who reject that the Christian scriptures teach the incaranation, they simply refuse to wrestle with what they cannot understand.

Well you know I have heard of peoople that say the scriptures teach that Jesus was a vistor from Mars and that the moon is made of green cheese. Does not make it so.
If Jesus is God then how are we supposed to become like Him?
Can God change His character from a person that cannot b tempted to a person that can be tempted. And Phil cannot eplain it because God cannot act outside of His character. His character does not change. Regardless of what you think you can prove in scripture if your conclussion/interpretation makes Christ less of an example or change God's character it must be wrong.

 

[GraceSeeker]

If Jesus is God then how are we supposed to become like Him?

We were created in God's image, is it so hard to imagen that we are to become like God who incarnated himself and dwelled among us. His life shows us how it is that we are to live once again.

Can God change His character from a person that cannot b tempted to a person that can be tempted.

What does God have to change? To be able to be tempted means that one has free will to make decisions for one's self. Certainly God has that sort of free will, as a sovereign being how could it be any other way. And repeatedly the scriptures speak of man tempting God and being told that we are not to do that, but we do. So how can you say that God cannot be tempted in the first place? You start with a false premise. He never gives in to temptation, but that doesn't mean that he could not chose differently.


In asserting that the incarnation changes God's character you simply show that you understand neither the incarnation nor God's essential character. And by choosing to ignore what scripture clearly says about the incarnation, you also show that you prefer your assumed theology over what God actually has to say on the subject for himself. Is not that the original sin that Adam and Eve committed in the garden to believe that they knew better than God when he had spoken specifically on a subject. I fear you tread very dangerous ground.

 

[music4two]

We were created in God's image, is it so hard to imagen that we are to become like God who incarnated himself and dwelled among us. His life shows us how it is that we are to live once again.

What does God have to change? To be able to be tempted means that one has free will to make decisions for one's self. Certainly God has that sort of free will, as a sovereign being how could it be any other way. And repeatedly the scriptures speak of man tempting God and being told that we are not to do that, but we do. So how can you say that God cannot be tempted in the first place? You start with a false premise. He never gives in to temptation, but that doesn't mean that he could not chose differently.


In asserting that the incarnation changes God's character you simply show that you understand neither the incarnation nor God's essential character. And by choosing to ignore what scripture clearly says about the incarnation, you also show that you prefer your assumed theology over what God actually has to say on the subject for himself. Is not that the original sin that Adam and Eve committed in the garden to believe that they knew better than God when he had spoken specifically on a subject. I fear you tread very dangerous ground.

Wrong again ---
James 1:13?Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Tempted = Apeirastos

Definition
that can not be tempted by evil, not liable to temptation to sin

Mt 4:1 -
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Tempted definition
to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
to solicit to sin, to tempt

Jesus was tempted. God cannot be Tempted.

Psalm 78:41?Again and again they tempted God,And pained the Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 78:56?Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High GodAnd did not keep His testimoniy
Psalm 106:14?But craved intensely in the wilderness,And tempted God in the desert.
All three are the same word.
NSH Hebrew Tempted – definition -
To test to prove if one is deserved to be lifted up.
It does not mean the same as how Jesus was tempted.

 

[GraceSeeker]

You need a better commentary.

Regarding Tempted = Apeirastos from James 1:13, the Greek noun you refer to is actually peirasmos, and it can refer to either an outward circumnstance or trial or to a temptation to sin. The same is true of the verb as well. But the passage makes it clear that the meaning is that evil cannot successfully tempt God, not that no one can ever try to put God to the test; the Hebrew people did repeatedly, just as scritpure affirms. God, by virtue of being omnipotent and holy will fully resist anything that would seek to direct him from that path which he has chosen for himself. This is also why God cannnot be the author of temptation. But this verse does not mean that evil cannot attempt to divert God, only that it will be unsuccessful in so doing, just as the devil was unsuccessful in tempting Jesus.

Did you look up the Greek text for Matthew 4:1 -- "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil."?

τοτε [ο] ιησους ανηχθη εις την ερημον υπο του πνευματος πειρασθηναι υπο του διαβολου

You will note that whether it is πειρασθηναι from Matthew 4:1 or απειραστος from James 1:13 that we are still dealing with the same word. And it is this same term that is used when the Jews transalted Psalm 78 from Hebrew into Greek. So, please don't tell me that they have different definitions.

You seem to have a problem with accepting what the Bible teaches with regard to God. If you do, you do. But, please, don't go making up stories and definitions to fit your theology; that is not just being heretical, it is being dishonest with the text itself.

 

[music4two]

You need a better commentary.

Regarding Tempted = Apeirastos from James 1:13, the Greek noun you refer to is actually peirasmos, and it can refer to either an outward circumnstance or trial or to a temptation to sin. The same is true of the verb as well. But the passage makes it clear that the meaning is that evil cannot successfully tempt God, not that no one can ever try to put God to the test; the Hebrew people did repeatedly, just as scritpure affirms. God, by virtue of being omnipotent and holy will fully resist anything that would seek to direct him from that path which he has chosen for himself. This is also why God cannnot be the author of temptation. But this verse does not mean that evil cannot attempt to divert God, only that it will be unsuccessful in so doing, just as the devil was unsuccessful in tempting Jesus.

Did you look up the Greek text for Matthew 4:1 -- "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil."?

You will note that whether it is ??????????? from Matthew 4:1 or ?????????? from James 1:13 that we are still dealing with the same word. And it is this same term that is used when the Jews transalted Psalm 78 from Hebrew into Greek. So, please don't tell me that they have different definitions.

You seem to have a problem with accepting what the Bible teaches with regard to God. If you do, you do. But, please, don't go making up stories and definitions to fit your theology; that is not just being heretical, it is being dishonest with the text itself.

Wrong again --- I did not use a commentary.
Comentaries are just opinions. I used both Greek and Hebrew lexiscons. You do know what those are do you not?

 

[GraceSeeker]

Wrong again --- I did not use a commentary.
Comentaries are just opinions. I used both Greek and Hebrew lexiscons. You do know what those are do you not?

Then learn to read it better. The inferences you drew from them are not consistent with the use of the terms in the scriptures themselves. It is the same root used in James 1:13, Matthew 4:1, and the LXX version of Psalm 78.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Jesus did not claim to be God, he claimed to be His son. Big difference.

So, are you suggesting that Jesus was just the son of God in the same way that Adam was the son of God? Or what exactly do you think is meant by John's intent in writing his Gospel "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...."?

 

[Simonline]

Though it may seem strange to some Christians, I really want to become like Christ. I think we are commanded to use Him as our example.
So I am looking at everything that Christ did and asking myself questions about how I can do those things.
Which of the many things that Christ did and accomplished were due to His deity and which are due to His humanity? How do you know?

You should start by believing the Truth as it has been revealed through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures?

Things that could only be true of Divinity but not humanity (such as bringing the Creation into existence from nothing (Col.1:15-16)) must equate to the Messiah Existing only as Divine. Things that could only be true of humanity but not Divinity (such as dying upon the cross, being tired, hungry, thirsty etc.) must equate to the Messiah existing only as human?! Things that can be true of both Divinity and humanity are probably true of the Messiah as both Divine and Human?!

For the record, Mark.13:32 (and parallell verses in the other gospels) relate to the Messiah existing as a human creature (because human creatures don't know everything) but NOT to the Messiah existing as the Divine Creator (because YHWH, as Omniscient, MUST know Everything)

Simonline.

 

[k2svpete]

So, are you suggesting that Jesus was just the son of God in the same way that Adam was the son of God? Or what exactly do you think is meant by John's intent in writing his Gospel "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...."?

Adam was not the son of God though. He was a created being, the first man. Jesus is THE Son of God, and the only one that can call him Father without being adopted as all believers are.

John is bringing out the fundamental belief that Jesus is the Son of God in that God actually was his father, as much as Mary was his mother. Through this, he did could not inherit the sins of his father as God is without sin. It gave him a clean starting point, as Adam had a clean starting point. The difference being that Jesus was without sin until his death, thereby defeating death as we are all familiar with '.. the wages of sin is death.' Hence the grave could not hold him and he became the first resurrected of the death, the first of a new creation.

 

[Simonline]

Adam was not the son of God though. He was a created being, the first man. Jesus is THE Son of God, and the only one that can call him Father without being adopted as all believers are.

The term 'Son of God', in relation to the Messiah (and only in relation to the Messiah), means 'God Himself (i.e. the SECOND Person of the One and Only Tri-Personal [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] Divine Creator, YHWH), incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.

It absolutely cannot mean that the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is 'God's offspring' in the same sense that we are the offspring of our human parents because that is metaphysically impossible. Absolute Reality doesn't produce offspring.

John is bringing out the fundamental belief that Jesus is the Son of God in that God actually was his father, as much as Mary was his mother.

Not true. God is NOT a finite creature and therefore cannot produce 'offspring' in the way that all other finite human creatures can. John is bringing out the Truth that the Messiah is actually God Himself, incarnate as a man (Jn.1:1,14).

Through this, he could not inherit the sins of his father as God is without sin.

Not true. The Messiah is sinless because He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man (Isa.43:10-13; Titus.2:13). God, as the Eternal and Immutable Absolute Reality, does not produce or generate 'offspring' after His own kind?!

It gave him a clean starting point, as Adam had a clean starting point.

Not true. If the Messiah was not YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man but only a finite human creature then he would have to be included 'in Adam' along with the rest of us. That means he, like us, would be a wretched sinner destined for the everlasting Lake of Fire?!

The difference being that Jesus was without sin until his death, thereby defeating death as we are all familiar with '.. the wages of sin is death.' Hence the grave could not hold him and he became the first resurrected of the death, the first of a new creation.

Not true. As only a finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth would be no different to the rest of us. He would also be sinful (Rom.3:9-18; 3:23; 6:23(a); 11:32)?!

Simonline.

 

[music4two]

Then learn to read it better. The inferences you drew from them are not consistent with the use of the terms in the scriptures themselves. It is the same root used in James 1:13, Matthew 4:1, and the LXX version of Psalm 78.

I did not inference anything. I simple cut and pasted the definitions. If you do not like the truth so be it.

And them being from the same root word proves my point. Gd cannot be tempted and Jesus can. James one says God cannot be tempted. Mat 4 says Jesus was tempted. Obviously if God became man then the essential character of God (not being temptable) would have to change for Jesus to be tempted. That simp[ly cannot be. It is heresy to think you can change God's character to satisify a theory of doctrine.