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100 Fold Return?

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probinson

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IAmTheClay said:
I have yet to see a "church" take care of the needy in it's own congregation on the tithes it takes in, let alone the needy within it's own neighborhood.

Then you're going to the wrong churches. My church regularly helps the needy in our congregation and in our community. I've been a recipient of that help myself.

As far as not giving to get, I understand what you're saying, but that's false humility. I don't "give to get", but I give expecting God to honor His word when I sow my tithes and offerings and pour out a blessing that I don't have room enough to receive so that I can be a bigger blessing, not so that I personally can become wealthy. It's all in your motive.
 
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RB4580

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ForgivenToo said:
Tithing isn't for the church, the offering that the church takes goes to the church and the expenses of the church. Tithing is for your pastor, the one that provides a service for you. The one that answers the phone at 2 am when you have a problem, the one that listens to you and offers guidance like a couselor, but without the $80 an hour fee. Tithing is to support your pastor, who has no other job besides this.

Is it fair to let your pastor go thru life unpaid for the multitude of services they perform?

What if you went to work everyday and when payday came around they decided that they didnt' want to pay you for your services?

Doesn't make sense. Are you telling me Eddie Long or T.D Jakes is to be given 10% of 30,000 peoples gross annual income to live on? And then in return do the phone calls, etc? Nope, doesn't work that way...
 
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JimB

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ForgivenToo said:
Tithing isn't for the church, the offering that the church takes goes to the church and the expenses of the church. Tithing is for your pastor, the one that provides a service for you. The one that answers the phone at 2 am when you have a problem, the one that listens to you and offers guidance like a couselor, but without the $80 an hour fee. Tithing is to support your pastor, who has no other job besides this.

Is it fair to let your pastor go thru life unpaid for the multitude of services they perform?

What if you went to work everyday and when payday came around they decided that they didnt' want to pay you for your services?
Where did you get this idea? It certainly didn't come from the Bible. If this is the way God meant it we’d have more preachers than believers.

~Jim



 
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probinson

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RB4580 said:
Doesn't make sense. Are you telling me Eddie Long or T.D Jakes is to be given 10% of 30,000 peoples gross annual income to live on? And then in return do the phone calls, etc? Nope, doesn't work that way...


What a wonderful way to present your argument to make Eddie Long and T.D. Jakes look like nothing more than greedy, self-absorbed exploiters of God's word.

If someone goes to T.D. Jakes church week in and week out and calls that their home church, then yes, they should tithe there. You should tithe wherever you are fed.

But you're assertion that it is so they have "10% of 30,000 people's gross annual income to live on" speaks volumes of your ignorance of what it takes to run a ministry of that size.

I can hear it already: "But if they used that money for the poor and needy instead of using it to build buildings, buy equipment, bla, bla, bla, bla, yada yada.... Oh really? Let's see what Jesus has to say about a similar situation:

Mark 14:3-6 (The Message)
3Jesus was at Bethany, a guest of Simon the Leper. While he was eating dinner, a woman came up carrying a bottle of very expensive perfume. Opening the bottle, she poured it on his head. 4Some of the guests became furious among themselves. "That's criminal! A sheer waste! 5This perfume could have been sold for well over a year's wages and handed out to the poor." They swelled up in anger, nearly bursting with indignation over her. 6But Jesus said, "Let her alone. Why are you giving her a hard time? She has just done something wonderfully significant for me.
 
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Trish1947

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If Jesus didn't expect us to have knowledge what the consequeces or the results of giving was going to accomplish, then why didn't He just say.."Give".....and leave it at that. But He didn't. He said "Give, and it shall be given..If I have a need, then not only is it going to be joyful to give, but I also have the joy of knowing that God is going to take care of my needs. He lets us know that not only is our giving productive, to those in need, but also our recieving is productive for the meeting of our needs.
 
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Theophilus7

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RB4580 said:
Is getting a 100 fold return on your money biblical? I listen to Mike Murdock and enjoy his "wisdom" teachings but it just throws me off when he talks about money the way he does. Am I just being to sensitive to this?
In the tenth chapter of his gospel, Mark relates an encounter between Jesus and a rich young ruler that left the disciples in some confusion. Jesus’ astonishing declaration that it would be “easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom” (25) prompted Peter (who, like the others, had given up everything he had) to enquire of his master, “What then will we have?” (Mat. 19:27). Does God hate things? In response, Jesus gives him this promise and assurance: Whatever they have lost will be made up to them, both in this life, and especially in the next. They shall receive “one hundred times more”, in fact.

It would appear that Jesus does intend us to understand this promise in material terms; houses, land and family are promised to those who have sacrificed their all in order to follow Christ; they will not be left without provision. The key to interpreting this passage, however, is in recognizing two shifts: one from the biological to the spiritualand another from the private to the communal. The faithful disciple who loses his biological family and sacrifices his private property for the sake of the gospel will enter a spiritual family and gain admission to communal property. He will receive these blessings through the fellowship of the Church.

In the New Testament the early disciples who “left everything to follow” Christ found in Christ a new family, with many new brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers (cf. 3:35), and when they traveled among the faithful, the shelter of their roofs, the fruit of their lands and the goods of their houses were placed at their service. Even in the early gospels we see evidence of this fulfillment: The same disciples who had obtained this reassurance from Christ subsequently confirmed God’s provision for their itinerant ministries (Luk. 22:35). They had been sent out to minister without wallet or shoes (Luk. 22:35), but faithful followers had opened up their homes and met their needs (cf. Mat. 10:10-13), just as others had done for Christ Himself (Luk. 8:3). Likewise, in the book of Acts, Luke relates how the believers in Jerusalem kept all their property ready for the common good, opening up or selling their lands and houses, as they were needed (Acts 2:44-45; 4:32). So Jesus kept his promise.
 
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Theophilus7

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Andrew said:
Works for me and many others.

Sounds like pragmatism, Andrew.

So i guess we can't use testimonies. Boils down to the Word again. Boils down to your 'right' interpretaion vs my 'right' interpretation doesnt it.

Yes, interpretation is the key to a lot of these problems. But even if we can't get at the right interpretation all the time, we can at least debunk a good many wrong ones. The traditional WoF interpretation of the hundredfold passages is, in my opinion, very obviously wrong.

Take a look at the passage, then read its context.

29 Jesus said, “Most assuredly I tell you, there is no one who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or land, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, 30 but he will receive one hundred times more now in this time, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and land, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life.

(1).To begin with, Jesus assures us that no one will fail to appropriate this blessing. No mention is made of having to know about, believe or claim this promise that I can see. Jesus’ guarantee is stated quite simply: No one who has done all this will fail to receive all these things in this present age. But has everybody who has left these things for Christ’s sake received a hundred of each again? There is certainly no record of the apostles acquiring such riches - far from it! (1Cor. 4:9-13) - and such an extraordinary blessing could hardly be hushed up. It is difficult enough citing examples of anybody who has received such a remarkable increase, let alone asserting that everybody who follows the formula will be rewarded with a hundred times more.

(2). Nobody can literally receive a hundred fathers or mothers. It is, of course, quite impossible that any man should be blessed with an additional set of biological parents to replace the parents he may have left behind, let alone a hundred more. But this interpretation has committed itself to a literal and privatised reading of Christ’s promise. If Jesus literally promised to give (up to?) a hundred houses into the personal possession of anyone who has given up his home for the gospel’s sake, then he also literally promised to give (up to?) a hundred mothers to anyone who, for Christ’s sake, has been obliged to leave his mother behind. But this is clearly impossible.

(3). The rich young ruler did not become His disciple. If Jesus was offering to supply numerous homes, vast quantities of real estate and a ‘100 to 1’ return on financial investments into His ministry, it is very strange that, in the light of such a lucrative deal, the rich young ruler “went away sad, because he had great wealth” (22). And if he was unaware of this promise, why did Jesus leave him in his ignorance, allowing him to walk away under the false impression that He was being called to sacrifice, let go of His selfish autonomy, follow Christ alone and trust God instead for the things he would need along the way? Perhaps this is the worst oversight.

Apart from these major obstacles to this (materialistic) reading of the passage, I think there are further objections that must be raised against the way it is commonly used to bolster a prosperity gospel:

(1). Jesus does not teach His disciples to give up everything in order to obtain greater material possessions. Rather, these disciples have been obliged to let go of all of these things, both “for my sake” (Jn, 6:68) and “for the sake of the gospel” (Mk. 10:29). Jesus is not extending this assurance as a means to get rich, but reiterating the biblical promise that God will never leave them nor forsake them, no matter what they may be called to give up.

(2). If Jesus was promising a one hundredfold return on our money, then one Christian who invested ten pounds several times over would soon be in possession of all the world’s wealth! The assertion that this one hundredfold return is available to claim for our investments into the gospel is mathematically absurd: Ten pounds at a ‘one hundred fold return’ would make one thousand, one thousand reinvested would make one hundred thousand… and after only six successful reinvestments of his money, the fortunate Christian who had learned to work this profitable system would be in possession of more wealth than is actually available on this planet! Another hopeless contradiction.

(3). The promise that our giving will receive a hundredfold ultimately fails the reality test. Whilst it is, no doubt, possible that God might enrich someone with a hundred times more than they presently possess, have given, or have been obliged to sacrifice, there are few (if any) who can truly testify that this has happened to them. The persistent failure of this formula alone makes this interpretation of the passage extremely suspect. Its potentially damaging impact on a young convert’s faith (and spirituality) makes it pastorally harmful.

(4). The Bible clearly warns us against greed and accumulating a large number of possessions (Ps. 119:36; Pro. 1:19; 23:4; Is. 5:8; 56:11; Mat. 6:19; Luk. 12:15,34; Php. 3:19; 1Tim. 6:5; Jam. 4:2-3 etc.). Where teachers misuse this scripture (and indeed, other scriptures) to promise or to justify luxurious living and the mass accumulation of material possessions, they do the body of Christ a dreadful disservice and compromise its prophetic voice.

Whilst Christians can be assured of God’s provision and God does make some people rich (but see 1Tim. 6:17), Yahweh would be a feeble God if He permitted His people to play Him like a rigged jackpot machine. I believe that there does exist a godly and more moderate dynamic of giving and receiving in the scriptures (and on a much firmer basis of Old and New Testament texts). But I think we would do well to remember the advice of J. Ellul who warns us against making “God’s kingdom an object of shrewd calculation, for God does not like schemers, and he never gives them what they have banked on.”
 
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New_Wineskin

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Theophilus7 said:
(1).To begin with, Jesus assures us that no one will fail to appropriate this blessing. No mention is made of having to know about, believe or claim this promise that I can see.

This is a good point that I forget from time to time when looking at certain discussions and knowing that there is something wrong with them . You are right , if the Lord says something *will* be done without stipulation , it will be done .
 
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probinson

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Theophilus7 said:
(3). The rich young ruler did not become His disciple. If Jesus was offering to supply numerous homes, vast quantities of real estate and a ‘100 to 1’ return on financial investments into His ministry, it is very strange that, in the light of such a lucrative deal, the rich young ruler “went away sad, because he had great wealth” (22). And if he was unaware of this promise, why did Jesus leave him in his ignorance, allowing him to walk away under the false impression that He was being called to sacrifice, let go of His selfish autonomy, follow Christ alone and trust God instead for the things he would need along the way? Perhaps this is the worst oversight.


Why do you suppose the rich young ruler went away sad? It tells us why! Because he had great wealth. Or rather, great wealth had him. Priorities. That is the key. The Message Bible says in verse 22, The man's face clouded over. This was the last thing he expected to hear, and he walked off with a heavy heart. He was holding on tight to a lot of things, and not about to let go. We can see that he valued his wealth more than he valued Jesus. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There's nothing wrong with having things, as long as things don't have you.
 
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Christina M

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I guess our own testimonies don't count, Andrew?

But God Himself said "Prove Me". I have and He has kept true to His word.

I sowed $100 not too long ago - in faith - and 30 days later a check, totally unexpected, unearned, for $10,000 was given to me "just because".:amen:

When my son was in college, he went to a private $25,000/year school. I had no idea where that money was going to come from (as I was a single mom at that time), but I KNEW God would provide! We prayed, we sowed a seed of $100, and a week later got a letter from the school which said they had chosen my son to receive a $16,000/year scholarship we had not even applied for!:clap: More than 100-fold return!

We had an unexpected $4,000 expense come our way....we sowed a seed of $60 and received a check a few days later in the mail for $6,000. It was a "love offering". Our need met, and then some!:bow:


The list goes on and on.......of wonderful provision brought by obedience..... so it is very very hard (impossible) for me to be "un-convinced" that God's will is that we tithe, and give offerings above beyond the tithe.

Once you have tasted, it is impossible to regress.
 
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Trish1947

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Those that experiance this will never be un-convienced. Thats why we are so bold to speak of it.

I was reading about setting memorials before God.

We were living rent free in a State owned compound which had to do with my husbands work. We only lived there for about a year and a half. And we were hoping to save for our own home. We received notice the the compound was being closed, so we would have to move. And they were going to give us 7 months to vacate. After my husband and I talked about it, we realized that we didn't want to rent again, but with so short notice, we wouldn't have enough money saved to put down on our own home. So we decided to place a love offering or a memorial before the Lord of 500.00. When time came to leave, I prayed "reminding" the Lord of the memorial that I had set before Him 7 months earlier,..the very next day, we received a totally unexpected check for 35,000.00, the exact amount we needed to pay all moving expenses and a down payment on our new home.

This happens over and over with us..all throughout our life in the Lord.

So there is no conviencing that this is not so.
 
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RB4580

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probinson said:
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What a wonderful way to present your argument to make Eddie Long and T.D. Jakes look like nothing more than greedy, self-absorbed exploiters of God's word.

If someone goes to T.D. Jakes church week in and week out and calls that their home church, then yes, they should tithe there. You should tithe wherever you are fed.

But you're assertion that it is so they have "10% of 30,000 people's gross annual income to live on" speaks volumes of your ignorance of what it takes to run a ministry of that size.

I can hear it already: "But if they used that money for the poor and needy instead of using it to build buildings, buy equipment, bla, bla, bla, bla, yada yada.... Oh really? Let's see what Jesus has to say about a similar situation:

Mark 14:3-6 (The Message)
3Jesus was at Bethany, a guest of Simon the Leper. While he was eating dinner, a woman came up carrying a bottle of very expensive perfume. Opening the bottle, she poured it on his head. 4Some of the guests became furious among themselves. "That's criminal! A sheer waste! 5This perfume could have been sold for well over a year's wages and handed out to the poor." They swelled up in anger, nearly bursting with indignation over her. 6But Jesus said, "Let her alone. Why are you giving her a hard time? She has just done something wonderfully significant for me.

Obviously you didn't read what the other person wrote, maybe you were just being lazy so let me spell it out for you. This person said "tithing ISN'T for the church and the expenses of the church. Tithing is for you pastor." So that means that money is NOT for the ministry but for them. So, your wrong when you say "You don't know what it takes to run a ministry that size"... We are talking about 2 different things, READ!
 
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Christina M

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AWESOME testimony, Trish! Thanks for sharing!

I think of the memorial stones often..... and how important it is to remember the goodness of the Lord.:clap:



Trish1947 said:
Those that experiance this will never be un-convienced. Thats why we are so bold to speak of it.

I was reading about setting memorials before God.

We were living rent free in a State owned compound which had to do with my husbands work. We only lived there for about a year and a half. And we were hoping to save for our own home. We received notice the the compound was being closed, so we would have to move. And they were going to give us 7 months to vacate. After my husband and I talked about it, we realized that we didn't want to rent again, but with so short notice, we wouldn't have enough money saved to put down on our own home. So we decided to place a love offering or a memorial before the Lord of 500.00. When time came to leave, I prayed reminding the Lord of the memorial that I had set before Him 7 months earlier,..the very next day, we received a totally unexpected check for 35,000.00, the exact amount we needed to pay all moving expenses and a down payment on our new home.

This happens over and over with us..all throughout our life in the Lord.

So there is no conviencing that this is not so.
 
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probinson

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RB4580 said:
Obviously you didn't read what the other person wrote, maybe you were just being lazy so let me spell it out for you. This person said "tithing ISN'T for the church and the expenses of the church. Tithing is for you pastor." So that means that money is NOT for the ministry but for them. So, your wrong when you say "You don't know what it takes to run a ministry that size"... We are talking about 2 different things, READ!

Whoa! Chill out there buddy! It's just a message board! If I misread what was originally said, I apologize.

I certainly don't believe that the whole of the tithe belongs to the pastor. I believe the tithes and offerings of a church should pay the pastor's and staff salary, pay for regular upkeep and maintenance on the building, and minister to those in need as God directs.
 
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Theophilus7

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Christina M said:
I guess our own testimonies don't count, Andrew?

But God Himself said "Prove Me". I have and He has kept true to His word.

I sowed $100 not too long ago - in faith - and 30 days later a check, totally unexpected, unearned, for $10,000 was given to me "just because".:amen:

When my son was in college, he went to a private $25,000/year school. I had no idea where that money was going to come from (as I was a single mom at that time), but I KNEW God would provide! We prayed, we sowed a seed of $100, and a week later got a letter from the school which said they had chosen my son to receive a $16,000/year scholarship we had not even applied for!:clap: More than 100-fold return!

We had an unexpected $4,000 expense come our way....we sowed a seed of $60 and received a check a few days later in the mail for $6,000. It was a "love offering". Our need met, and then some!:bow:


The list goes on and on.......of wonderful provision brought by obedience..... so it is very very hard (impossible) for me to be "un-convinced" that God's will is that we tithe, and give offerings above beyond the tithe.

Once you have tasted, it is impossible to regress.

Testimonies do have their place, Christina. But the fact that something seems to have "worked" for you doesn't necessarily make it true (or good). But we digress.

I don't claim that people can never be blessed with one hundred times as much as they have given in a particular instances. I simply deny that this Scripture teaches that we are promised a 100-1 return on our giving. I gave quite a few reasons why it couldn't mean that. (Did you read them?) Your experience doesn't verify your interpretation of that scripture, nor invalidate mine.
 
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Theophilus7

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Trish1947 said:
Those that experiance this will never be un-convienced. Thats why we are so bold to speak of it.

I was reading about setting memorials before God.

We were living rent free in a State owned compound which had to do with my husbands work. We only lived there for about a year and a half. And we were hoping to save for our own home. We received notice the the compound was being closed, so we would have to move. And they were going to give us 7 months to vacate. After my husband and I talked about it, we realized that we didn't want to rent again, but with so short notice, we wouldn't have enough money saved to put down on our own home. So we decided to place a love offering or a memorial before the Lord of 500.00. When time came to leave, I prayed "reminding" the Lord of the memorial that I had set before Him 7 months earlier,..the very next day, we received a totally unexpected check for 35,000.00, the exact amount we needed to pay all moving expenses and a down payment on our new home.

This happens over and over with us..all throughout our life in the Lord.

So there is no conviencing that this is not so.

That's a great testimony, Trish, but it doesn't verify the traditional Word of Faith exegesis of the "hundred fold" scriptures. There are plenty of other texts about God blessing the generous giver and God being our provider which connect to your experience. I have no problems fitting your testimony into my theology.

But the WoF interpretation of the hundredfold passages, however, fails for a number of reasons (which I posted on this thread earlier).
 
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ForgivenToo

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Seems i was a little confused when i wrote my last post. I come from a very small church, 50-75 people max. My pastor does not get a salary, she gets paid only on what we tithe. That's it. My pastor does answer the phone at 2 am and spent time after her great granddaughters birthday party to sit and talk to me personally. She listened to me and gave me some ideas to deal with some things in my life.

I didn't realize that some churches pay their pator a salary. This is the way things have been done in MY church MY entire life, ever since i was old enough to tithe that dime on the dollar i got and i did it joyfully.

I don't even want to bring into this about pastors on TV, i'm still trying to decide for myself if they are doing this for God or for themselves.

Sorry if i offended anyone with my lack of education on other churches, i was sharing my opinion and knowledge cause someone asked a questiong.
 
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Christina M

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Theophilus7 said:
Testimonies do have their place, Christina. But the fact that something seems to have "worked" for you doesn't necessarily make it true (or good).


Sorry, dear. It has worked, does work and will continue to work....because it is GOD's way. Seedtime and Harvest. All throughout the word.

You can continue to say it doesn't, but it doesn't change that it DOES.

I am not about to stop obeying God because somebody tells me it is not true or good.


(Hmmmmm.... my child getting a college education pratically free is not good????? Because we were diligent in prayer and giving??? Go figure. :scratch: )
 
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janny108

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akasmom said:
No, you aren't being too sensitive, you're being wise. If God leads you to give an amount to a person, church, ministry or whatever, do it with joy and assurance that being willing and obedient has tangible as well as spiritual rewards. But don't get sucked into the "I need a $100 harvest so I'll sow $1 to this guy" school of giving. Don't limit God as to what, when or how He'll bless you, just as He doesn't limit how, when, with whom or where He'll use you!

I totally agree! God says to prove Him by seeing if He does not bless you . He does not say how He will do it! LOL( Malachi 3:10 says. )

Jan
 
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