1 Timothy 5:23 ?

[Restoresmysoul]

As you can see I have struggles and unanswered questions. Maybe if someone laid hands on me I would be healed but in the mean time the word of wisdom is the power that sustains me. I truly believe that the Spirit teaches me things that helps me to abide in Him daily. And some things never go away, the memories that haunt us are with us until we die and they can be a trigger for depression and anxiety, I must live with it and this is actually a blessing because it helps me focus on heaven instead of this world. All things work good for those who love God. Spiritual warfare is what I have, I may not have faith to heal but I have faith that perseveres and that seems like a blessing. Forgive me, I just want to share my testimony and explore the things of God, I believe in what I say and I thank you for listening.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Or maybe they don't get healed because they are trained to believe a lie. I have been trained to believe lies. We all have.

I've been praying for about a year to get to the point were I am living above what I can see, taste, smell, hear, feel. God honored that prayer, and I am finding out just how much I rely on my flesh and my stupid senses. I have had to choose whether to believe God or to drown, in a metaphorical sense, but still possibly just as dead. It is not easy. I have been trusting my senses too long, and I am too used to it. But in my life it is time to put up or shut up.

Why do people in third world countries get healed regularly of things that we here in "the western world" are willing to die from? Because they aren't so sophisticated as to believe that they have to die just because some "expert" says so. But here, we trust the devil more than we trust God. I'm sorry, but we are sick because we trust the illness. I'm not saying that the illness isn't real, but the Healer is way more real. Sickness is death, Jesus is life. Time to choose. It really is put up or shut up time for me.

I can't make anyone else believe God. I'm not as good at it as I need to be myself. But I can point out that God says He heals, and it is wise to believe what He says. Those scriptures have already been presented, and they mean what they say. But if anyone here would rather believe The Liar than God, I've been there myself.

Ok friend, then please explain why Timothy needed medication for his stomach. Explain why Africa is dying from Ebola. Explain why the apostles teach us to set our affections on heaven instead of earthly things. Explain why good people die every day.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Allow me to give some constructive criticism. Is Kenneth Copeland a word of faith preacher? If so then why doesn't he follow the Apostles if he is so gifted? The man owns 300 acres while people starve to death. Does he raise crops? No. Didn't he ever read Acts 2 or 1 Timothy 6?

Anyway, I suppose i'll be quiet now. Have a good day.

 

[jiminpa]

Ok friend, then please explain why Timothy needed medication for his stomach. Explain why Africa is dying from Ebola. Explain why the apostles teach us to set our affections on heaven instead of earthly things. Explain why good people die every day.

I already explained why good people die every day. Too many would rather listen to the con artists selling unbelief for a great profit into their own pockets. Concerning Timothy, maybe as strong in faith as he was he wasn't perfect either, and struggled to believe all the time. Maybe those illnesses came on him and he trusted and got healed as soon as he recognized them, but Paul was trying to prevent them from even beginning. Maybe God revealed to Paul the source of Timothy's ailments and he was telling Timothy how to obey God. Maybe God let those illnesses come on Timothy for a short time, just to put a verse in the Bible specifically instructing someone to drink wine, because he knew it was going to become a ridiculous controversy. I don't really know. I acknowledge that those verses are there, and that I don't understand the seeming conflict between them and God's promises. I can also see that illness is not the norm in the Bible for people who are walking with God, in both the old and the new testaments. I can see that when there is illness in the Bible God heals, with very few exceptions, and the reason for the exception is given in the scripture, except for whatever was going on with Timothy. So if someone wants to remain sick because of one verse out dozens that demonstrate God's healing, well what can I say to stop them.

 

[jiminpa]

Allow me to give some constructive criticism. Is Kenneth Copeland a word of faith preacher? If so then why doesn't he follow the Apostles if he is so gifted? The man owns 300 acres while people starve to death. Does he raise crops? No. Didn't he ever read Acts 2 or 1 Timothy 6?

Anyway, I suppose i'll be quiet now. Have a good day.

We don't know how much Kenneth Copeland gives to the poor, and he doesn't sound a trumpet for most of his giving. To scrutinize him over what he does with 300 acres is just ridiculous. I'm pretty sure he gives more to the poor in six months than most of us have in our lives.

"The original disciples sold their land and gave the money away." Yes they did, once. I don't see anything that says that they never bought any more land. I don't see where all disciples everywhere did the same thing after that. What did Peter say to Ananias and Sapphira? The land was theirs to sell or keep. They fell dead for trying to lie about it to God's Spirit.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I already explained why good people die every day. Too many would rather listen to the con artists selling unbelief for a great profit into their own pockets. Concerning Timothy, maybe as strong in faith as he was he wasn't perfect either, and struggled to believe all the time. Maybe those illnesses came on him and he trusted and got healed as soon as he recognized them, but Paul was trying to prevent them from even beginning. Maybe God revealed to Paul the source of Timothy's ailments and he was telling Timothy how to obey God. Maybe God let those illnesses come on Timothy for a short time, just to put a verse in the Bible specifically instructing someone to drink wine, because he knew it was going to become a ridiculous controversy. I don't really know. I acknowledge that those verses are there, and that I don't understand the seeming conflict between them and God's promises. I can also see that illness is not the norm in the Bible for people who are walking with God, in both the old and the new testaments. I can see that when there is illness in the Bible God heals, with very few exceptions, and the reason for the exception is given in the scripture, except for whatever was going on with Timothy. So if someone wants to remain sick because of one verse out dozens that demonstrate God's healing, well what can I say to stop them.

Ok fair enough. Its my opinion that you cant just lay hands on things like fear, depression and anxiety, nor can you simply rebuke it with a word. I think there are causes for those things and they can be dealt with by using the things the Lord and his apostles teach us, things like not worrying about tomorrow, learning to endure suffering, praying, waiting on God, meditating on scripture and walking by faith not sight. Walking by faith means that no matter what happens I will trust God, this is my personal definition. But my whole point is that when we promise healing by word of faith then we actually feed peoples depression, anxiety and fear if they do not get healed. We rob them of their Joy and peace, or we rob them of the instruction that can help them get joy and peace. Seriously, I just cant believe a preacher who owns expensive cars and houses and many acres of land. This is not how the apostles lived. And if any preacher wants me to put up or shut up then I would urge them to do the same. Put up your money instead of mine. Sell your riches, do they not know that Jesus said not to store riches ion earth? Do they not understand that the apostles would never store riches? Why should I believe that these preachers have the same gifts as the apostles when they seem to lack wisdom and discernment? Do they not know that they must not give the world any reason to accuse them? Do they not know that it will also cause weak Christians to stumble? Paul wouldn't eat meat if it caused his brother to stumble, and he sure wouldn't own a Mercedes or own 300 acres for his own personal back yard. Not to mention, who could possibly store wealth while people struggle just to live? Where is their conscience? I tell you my friend, I don't trust these preachers.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

We don't know how much Kenneth Copeland gives to the poor, and he doesn't sound a trumpet for most of his giving. To scrutinize him over what he does with 300 acres is just ridiculous. I'm pretty sure he gives more to the poor in six months than most of us have in our lives.

"The original disciples sold their land and gave the money away." Yes they did, once. I don't see anything that says that they never bought any more land. I don't see where all disciples everywhere did the same thing after that. What did Peter say to Ananias and Sapphira? The land was theirs to sell or keep. They fell dead for trying to lie about it to God's Spirit.

Consider the widows mite. Poor people give more than he does because they give all they can afford.

2 Corinthians 8:15 As it is written, “He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”[a]

If these men didn't claim to have such power I wouldn't criticize them, and wouldn't criticize them if they were not teachers But I cant understand how a man who claims to be so spirit filled doesn't look more like the Church in Acts 2, or why he doesn't seem to follow Jesus teaching about not storing riches on earth. If i'm wrong then may God forgive me, but I just cant seem to agree with them.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Seriously, ask yourself this question. If you had 300 acres, would you keep it or would you sell it? If you were setting your affections on heaven wouldn't you sell it? Would you not worry that one day when we stand before God that he would ask you why the brethren suffered why you horded wealth? What would a spirit filled man do?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Personally I think a spirit filled man would be like Paul. He would not hoard wealth because he did all things for the sake of the Gospel. He didn't want to give this world any reason to accuse the ministry, or any reason for someone to be offended by his ministry, he abstained from all appearances of evil, he gave all he had so it would be easier for people come to the Lord. And he lead by example, he was no hypocrite. Paul said to be content with food ad clothing, he said to abstain from covetousness. He practiced what he preached.



1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings[a] of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain[c] we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The Good Confession

11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Instructions to the Rich

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Guard the Faith

20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge— 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith.

Grace be with you. Amen.

 

[jiminpa]

Ok fair enough. Its my opinion that you cant just lay hands on things like fear, depression and anxiety, nor can you simply rebuke it with a word. I think there are causes for those things and they can be dealt with by using the things the Lord and his apostles teach us, things like not worrying about tomorrow, learning to endure suffering, praying, waiting on God, meditating on scripture and walking by faith not sight. Walking by faith means that no matter what happens I will trust God, this is my personal definition. But my whole point is that when we promise healing by word of faith then we actually feed peoples depression, anxiety and fear if they do not get healed. We rob them of their Joy and peace, or we rob them of the instruction that can help them get joy and peace. Seriously, I just cant believe a preacher who owns expensive cars and houses and many acres of land. This is not how the apostles lived. And if any preacher wants me to put up or shut up then I would urge them to do the same. Put up your money instead of mine. Sell your riches, do they not know that Jesus said not to store riches ion earth? Do they not understand that the apostles would never store riches? Why should I believe that these preachers have the same gifts as the apostles when they seem to lack wisdom and discernment? Do they not know that they must not give the world any reason to accuse them? Do they not know that it will also cause weak Christians to stumble? Paul wouldn't eat meat if it caused his brother to stumble, and he sure wouldn't own a Mercedes or own 300 acres for his own personal back yard. Not to mention, who could possibly store wealth while people struggle just to live? Where is their conscience? I tell you my friend, I don't trust these preachers.

I agree with you to an extent. Depression is a mindset, and usually demonic in nature. One doesn't get healed of it, they rebuke it and the demon behind it, and stop listening to the lies that lead to depression. This is a battle that I understand well. If ministering healing to someone robs them of their joy, or peace, I suspect it wasn't actually joy and peace that they had in the thirst place.

I don't want more of us to trust God to heap condemnation on anyone, quite the opposite. It is our lack of trust that gives condemnation a place to stand in our lives in the first place. I want people to trust God so that they are whole again. If they don't get it right away, I still want to see them whole. Hold on to God's truth until you have it, and be everything God has you to be. That is a generic "you," I am not specifically addressing you as an individual. Why can't we start encouraging one another to stop listening to the father of lies? He is a thief, a murderer and a destroyer, not God.

Personally, I don't know or care what Kenneth Copeland drives. He doesn't answer to me. What he does has nothing to do with how trustworthy God is. If your faith or lack of it is in Kenneth Copeland you have a serious problem. If Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, and my pastors all cleaned out their ministries' bank accounts and bought an island in the Bahamas, it wouldn't change who God is one bit. I'd have to look for new pastors, but none of those people are my God.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I agree with you to an extent. Depression is a mindset, and usually demonic in nature. One doesn't get healed of it, they rebuke it and the demon behind it, and stop listening to the lies that lead to depression. This is a battle that I understand well. If ministering healing to someone robs them of their joy, or peace, I suspect it wasn't actually joy and peace that they had in the thirst place.

I don't want more of us to trust God to heap condemnation on anyone, quite the opposite. It is our lack of trust that gives condemnation a place to stand in our lives in the first place. I want people to trust God so that they are whole again. If they don't get it right away, I still want to see them whole. Hold on to God's truth until you have it, and be everything God has you to be. That is a generic "you," I am not specifically addressing you as an individual. Why can't we start encouraging one another to stop listening to the father of lies? He is a thief, a murderer and a destroyer, not God.

Personally, I don't know or care what Kenneth Copeland drives. He doesn't answer to me. What he does has nothing to do with how trustworthy God is. If your faith or lack of it is in Kenneth Copeland you have a serious problem. If Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, and my pastors all cleaned out their ministries' bank accounts and bought an island in the Bahamas, it wouldn't change who God is one bit. I'd have to look for new pastors, but none of those people are my God.

I have had joy and it was robed by teachers who I suspect teach false doctrine. Paul's joy was often robed in the same way. And im trying to suggest that these teachers strengthened the lies of the enemy by telling me that I lacked faith because I experienced depression. Then you have the extremist view that actually goes far beyond that and actually accuses you of not being saved. WE are, as you say, suppose to build each other up, not tear each other down. The enemy uses our words against each other, this is why we are not supposed to speak evil of anyone and why we are suppose to be quiet and humble, and another reason is because pride and contention is the same as giving the enemy a foothold in our mind. Spiritual warfare is about humbling ones self, that is one of our best defenses against him.

These preachers are relevant because they are the ones who lead us away from sound doctrine. I don't know what to say about Joyce Myers, i'll hold off judgment on her. But Ken Copeland is supposed to be a spirit filled man, but he doesn't seem to follow Paul's example, not in my opinion.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Even now I stumble over them. I wished I would not have mentioned it. But if its true then it is what it is.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Would it be unwise for me to share my feelings with you? I feel discouraged, I feel like I cannot wait to get to heaven, this world causes me such grief. What is truth? Who do I follow? Am I the only one who feels that we are in the last days and that false teachers are leading us astray? Am I the only one who feels this despair?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Psalm 27:14New King James Version (NKJV)



Psalm 27:14
Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!

 

[Restoresmysoul]

You're correct brother. I can't worry about them. My focus is on my own healing, its on the Lord. Thank you. Have a good night. Peace.

 

[jiminpa]

What can I do to help build you up in the Lord? I mean that. I can continue to suggest, maybe more directly, that you get you focus off of people, and put it more on God Himself. I have listened to Kenneth Copeland a lot in the past and he had some good teaching and some not so good teaching. I read the scriptures and saw that some of what he said lined up and some did not. It was by doing the Bible work in one of his pamphlets that I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, not by his words, but by going over the scriptures that he cited. I have since learned and applied more scripture than what he cited in that pamphlet. Do you see what I am saying here? It is not what Kenneth Copeland taught that I relied on. It is the scripture that he cited, and I did my own contextual study.

I watch and listen to some teaching, and I compare that teaching to the Bible. What lines up and helps I keep. What doesn't line up, I discard, and those who are consistently opposed and have nothing Biblically valuable I stop listening to.

Discouragement is tough. I've struggled with it for decades. All I can tell you is that I've learned that to be discouraged you have to listen to the voice of the thief. I am learning to stop listening to that voice. I don't know it by the sound it makes in my mind, I know it by the ungodly content. "You're going to starve" isn't God. "Your wife and children will go hungry," isn't God. "How can you be loved now," isn't God. Do you see the pattern? If you think about it, you know what God says to you. He says that He can take care of you, that He loves you, that He will never leave you or forsake you. That is what you should listen to. God says generally in His written word that His Spirit gave life back to Jesus's body, and that His Spirit dwells in your body, and gives that same healing life, and He says the same thing specifically to your spirit, which says it to your mind. Listen to the part of your thoughts that say the things that the Bible says God says.

I hope that helps.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

What can I do to help build you up in the Lord? I mean that. I can continue to suggest, maybe more directly, that you get you focus off of people, and put it more on God Himself. I have listened to Kenneth Copeland a lot in the past and he had some good teaching and some not so good teaching. I read the scriptures and saw that some of what he said lined up and some did not. It was by doing the Bible work in one of his pamphlets that I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, not by his words, but by going over the scriptures that he cited. I have since learned and applied more scripture than what he cited in that pamphlet. Do you see what I am saying here? It is not what Kenneth Copeland taught that I relied on. It is the scripture that he cited, and I did my own contextual study.

I watch and listen to some teaching, and I compare that teaching to the Bible. What lines up and helps I keep. What doesn't line up, I discard, and those who are consistently opposed and have nothing Biblically valuable I stop listening to.

Discouragement is tough. I've struggled with it for decades. All I can tell you is that I've learned that to be discouraged you have to listen to the voice of the thief. I am learning to stop listening to that voice. I don't know it by the sound it makes in my mind, I know it by the ungodly content. "You're going to starve" isn't God. "Your wife and children will go hungry," isn't God. "How can you be loved now," isn't God. Do you see the pattern? If you think about it, you know what God says to you. He says that He can take care of you, that He loves you, that He will never leave you or forsake you. That is what you should listen to. God says generally in His written word that His Spirit gave life back to Jesus's body, and that His Spirit dwells in your body, and gives that same healing life, and He says the same thing specifically to your spirit, which says it to your mind. Listen to the part of your thoughts that say the things that the Bible says God says.

I hope that helps.

You're right. Im grateful that you understand and your concern itself helps a lot. I just don't agree with prosperity preachers, I just cant agree with them. But what you say is right, thank you for your love.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Depression is a mindset, and usually demonic in nature. One doesn't get healed of it, they rebuke it and the demon behind it, and stop listening to the lies that lead to depression. This is a battle that I understand well.

Can I ask why you feel you know 'depression' so well if you call this a mind set? Depression that is diagnosed is caused by the body not producing endorphins in the brain. Same type of thing as a diabetic person's body not producing insulin. How do you equate this with being a mind set and demonic?

You claim that 'depression' is a battle that you understand well. Seems your theory is a little wack. #notwaiting4deliverance
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Either way, depression is something that I deal with. I get frustrated when people question my faith over it. The only answer I have found is in scripture, I feel like God showed me things that helped and that gave me hope and gave me a way to deal with it. Im not sure its demonic but I do think that the enemy will use it to destroy our lives. The enemy comes to kill, steal and destroy but Christ came to give us a more abundant life, im not sure if that life is here or in heaven but I know that the Lord wants us to have peace and joy even when we are suffering. He says that His words are spirit and life and I believe HIs words and His instruction help me a lot.

 

[LinkH]

Hi, I always struggled to understand healing miracles. I guess im a person who thinks we should follow Christ and persevere through any circumstances and keep our faith in God, even if we are not healed. Im not suggesting that miracles don't happen, obviously the bible records many of them and so they are real. I struggle to understand 1 Timothy 5:23, at first this scripture gave me hope because it was proof that even apostles had illnesses, but now im wondering if I understand it correctly. I still believe that this scripture records an example of Christians not being in perfect health but I was told by someone that I was delusional for my beliefs, so i'm willing to open my mind to other possibilities. Please, I would like to hear opinions, im not here to debate, only listen. Thank you.

Some people make a doctrine out of an extreme concept, going beyond what the Bible teaches and contradicting the Bible to take some concept that may have some Biblical support to an unbiblical extreme. I mean, Quakers were against ritual, so they did away with water baptism. Some people in the house church movement are for being organic and against formality and go too far on the idea of leadership being organic and not formal leadership.

Some Charismatics who believe in healing go to far in their thinking, too. The Bible shows believers getting sick. Some Charismatics say God never makes anyone sick, when in the Bible He tells the Israelites that if they are obedient to the covenant, He will put upon them none of the sicknesses he put upon the Egyptians.

If someone tries to convince you that believers never suffer illness or injury, you could punch that person in the nose and ask if it hurts. But that is probably too extreme a way to make a point.