1 Timothy 5:23 ?

[Restoresmysoul]

Hi, I always struggled to understand healing miracles. I guess im a person who thinks we should follow Christ and persevere through any circumstances and keep our faith in God, even if we are not healed. Im not suggesting that miracles don't happen, obviously the bible records many of them and so they are real. I struggle to understand 1 Timothy 5:23, at first this scripture gave me hope because it was proof that even apostles had illnesses, but now im wondering if I understand it correctly. I still believe that this scripture records an example of Christians not being in perfect health but I was told by someone that I was delusional for my beliefs, so i'm willing to open my mind to other possibilities. Please, I would like to hear opinions, im not here to debate, only listen. Thank you.

 

[Biblicist]

Hi, I always struggled to understand healing miracles. I guess im a person who thinks we should follow Christ and persevere through any circumstances and keep our faith in God, even if we are not healed. Im not suggesting that miracles don't happen, obviously the bible records many of them and so they are real. I struggle to understand 1 Timothy 5:23, at first this scripture gave me hope because it was proof that even apostles had illnesses, but now im wondering if I understand it correctly. I still believe that this scripture records an example of Christians not being in perfect health but I was told by someone that I was delusional for my beliefs, so i'm willing to open my mind to other possibilities. Please, I would like to hear opinions, im not here to debate, only listen. Thank you.

I think that it would be safe to say that we all struggle to understand the “hows & why’s” of receiving God’s grace in this area.

You will of course come across the more extreme element who will claim that it is Gods perfect will for each and everyone to be healed without prejudice but this is of course not the Biblical position. What many fail to appreciate is that some of our illnesses are the result of our own sin or even life choices so unless we are prepared to either discern our own behaviour or listen to the admonition of our friends then we can often find ourselves up against a brick wall.

On the other side of the coin, I have absolutely no doubt that we often fail to receive our healing simply because the broader Church seems to have little idea of the practical and logistical mechanisms (through the Spirit) whereby we are to seek after our healing.

 

[franky67]

Hi, I always struggled to understand healing miracles. I guess im a person who thinks we should follow Christ and persevere through any circumstances and keep our faith in God, even if we are not healed. Im not suggesting that miracles don't happen, obviously the bible records many of them and so they are real. I struggle to understand 1 Timothy 5:23, at first this scripture gave me hope because it was proof that even apostles had illnesses, but now im wondering if I understand it correctly. I still believe that this scripture records an example of Christians not being in perfect health but I was told by someone that I was delusional for my beliefs, so i'm willing to open my mind to other possibilities. Please, I would like to hear opinions, im not here to debate, only listen. Thank you.

Folks in bible times were just like us, they had their aches and pains, and were not too sure about how God heals, but this I know, Jesus told the twelve, and the seventy to go and "heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, And Matthew 11:5 says "the blind receive their sight , the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, and the dead are raised, and the poor have the Gospel preached to them." and next verse says "blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me"

Isaiah said in chapter 53, "by His stripes, you WERE healed"

It's already done, His part is finished, our part is to receive.

Pray those "you said" and "it is written" type prayers.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I think that it would be safe to say that we all struggle to understand the “hows & why’s” of receiving God’s grace in this area.

You will of course come across the more extreme element who will claim that it is Gods perfect will for each and everyone to be healed without prejudice but this is of course not the Biblical position. What many fail to appreciate is that some of our illnesses are the result of our own sin or even life choices so unless we are prepared to either discern our own behaviour or listen to the admonition of our friends then we can often find ourselves up against a brick wall.

On the other side of the coin, I have absolutely no doubt that we often fail to receive our healing simply because the broader Church seems to have little idea of the practical and logistical mechanisms (through the Spirit) whereby we are to seek after our healing.

Yes, I understand that our sickness is often our own fault. But my concern is about how we gain things like peace in our mind by obeying the commands of the Lord. For example, if I pray for Gods help in obeying him and I fail to follow his instruction then why would I have peace? God chastens every believer and he chastens us for our own good, out of love. And my concern is that preachers who promise peace by "naming it and claiming it" only give us false hope instead of teaching us the way of peace, they seem to fail in teaching us that humbling our self and walking in love and godliness brings peace. They seem interested only in promising miracles for healing but not teaching instruction in wisdom that brings healing.

And look at Timothy, he was clearly a man who had spiritual gifts yet Paul tells him to drink wine for his stomach and his other illnesses? Why didn't Paul just tell timothy to name it and claim it? Why didn't he tell Timothy to have faith for healing?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Folks in bible times were just like us, they had their aches and pains, and were not too sure about how God heals, but this I know, Jesus told the twelve, and the seventy to go and "heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, And Matthew 11:5 says "the blind receive their sight , the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, and the dead are raised, and the poor have the Gospel preached to them." and next verse says "blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me"

Isaiah said in chapter 53, "by His stripes, you WERE healed"

It's already done, His part is finished, our part is to receive.

Pray those "you said" and "it is written" type prayers.

Thank you. In my opinion when peter said "By his stripes we were healed", he was referring to healing of the curse of sin which is death, or something along those lines. Peter seems to be using that reference to teach us to bear our own stripes, to follow Christ's example by bearing things like reproach. But the chapter doesn't seem to be talking about physical healing necessarily. But that's just my opinion.

 

[franky67]

Thank you. In my opinion when peter said "By his stripes we were healed", he was referring to healing of the curse of sin which is death, or something along those lines. Peter seems to be using that reference to teach us to bear our own stripes, to follow Christ's example by bearing things like reproach. But the chapter doesn't seem to be talking about physical healing necessarily. But that's just my opinion.

Leaving Isaiah aside for a time, consider all the healings that Jesus and His disciples did, and it is not written that God meant for them to cease.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Leaving Isaiah aside for a time, consider all the healings that Jesus and His disciples did, and it is not written that God meant for them to cease.

Yes, I agree. However its hard to deny that God teaches us that if we follow his ways that we will have peace and even long life. Im not denying that miracles do happen, im just trying to explore the whole truth about healing both mind and body. And what about Mathew 7? These people thought that they were performing miracles but were rejected by Christ, Christ seems to emphasize following his commands.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[melody123]

Restoresmysoul, What do you think of this explanation? I think it’s a pretty well rounded answer on 1 Timothy 5:23 :

Here we have several apparent problems: Paul told Timothy to use natural means to treat his stomach, and apparently, Timothy was often sick. Also, Paul didn't just "heal him," as some people say he could have done if healing were for all. The objector usually adds that Paul did not tell Timothy to believe for his healing or to speak to his body, believe that he received his healing, or anything else we might tell people to do today.

The water could indeed have been the cause of Timothy's trouble given Paul's exhortation to not drink it. (Some translations say "Drink no longer only water" instead of "Drink no longer water," but this is an interpretation since the word only does not appear in the original Greek text.) I don't know whether this variety of wine was alcoholic or not; I'll let others debate that. However, he was assuredly not telling Timothy to go around all day with a buzz.


Many places on the earth today are known to have bad water, and people often get sick when they travel there if they drink it. This is not a curse that comes on them for sinning. The water just happens to have certain microorganisms in it. Instead of telling people to drink up and believe God, better counsel would be: "Drink something other than water. If you drink this water, you'll have frequent health problems!" Why get sick and believe God for healing when you can avoid the sickness in the first place? Why have recurring health problems like Timothy did if they're avoidable through natural means? The last time I went to such a place, I just avoided the water.

So what about Paul not exhorting Timothy to believe for his healing? Remember that this is the same Paul who wrote that our bodies were paid for, that the Lord is for the body, that we always triumph in Christ, that we reign in this life, that every knee bows when the name of Jesus is spoken, and that all things are under Christ's feet (and thus under ours). This same Paul described sickness at Corinth as a judgment for carnality, not the will of God. This is the same Paul who preached and had a man receive "faith to be healed" listening to his gospel. Paul must have preached healing for this man to have gotten faith from listening to him, since faith comes by hearing God's Word.


This is the same Paul through whom special miracles were done, so that cloths that had touched him were taken to the sick, and they recovered. This same Paul healed all the sick people on the island in Acts 28. This same Paul raised a man from the dead. This same Paul chided so-called "apostles" who had no power. Paul said that the kingdom of God is not only in word, but also in power. Paul said that he had fully preached the gospel after saying that signs and wonders were done. He obviously considered Holy Ghost miracle power to be a normal part of the preaching of the gospel.

We know that healing was the norm in these days because James gave instructions on what to do IF there is any sick among you. The very word IF implies that there doesn't need to be any sick among you. Paul taught in this setting. It was not like it is today, where James might have had to ask, "Is any among you well?"


So there is no way that you can say that Paul did not believe in healing. How could he not, when his body was abused frequently, and he always went on to the next place and preached some more! He was stoned and left for dead in Galatia, yet got up and went back to town the very next day after the believers prayed for him. Although this obviously caused a physical trial for him (
Gal 4:13), this trial was only "at the first," and then Paul was back to normal again!

Of course, the objection is based on the "fact" that Paul did not tell Timothy that he had any power to do anything about it. That is a somewhat dubious proposition, since Paul did tell Timothy that God had given him the Spirit of power (2 Tim 1:7). He also made a promise (which mothers should believe today) that God will preserve the physical life of the godly mother in childbirth (1 Tim 2:15). That is a health promise, and it's in the same book as the verse about Timothy's stomach! Paul also told Timothy in the same book that men (this would include Timothy) should pray without doubting (1 Tim 2:8). Therefore, you cannot truthfully say that Paul never said anything to Timothy about health or faith.


Paul was a father in the faith to Timothy, so Timothy had to know Paul's teachings on healing. Paul told Timothy to have nothing to do with fables and genealogies, but to minister "godly edifying which is in faith" (1 Tim 1:4). You should further note that there is no reference to Timothy's ailments in 2 Timothy. So for all you know Timothy took Paul's advice from 1 Timothy and didn't have any more trouble! We know that Timothy was able to travel and minister the gospel, so whatever it was could not have been hindering him from doing that. Contrast that with people in the hospital, able to do little or nothing about world evangelism, thinking that this verse about Timothy's stomach proves that they have no alternative.

Whatever was wrong with Timothy, it could not have been very serious. Timothy was still able to preach and minister to his congregation. He was not bedridden. I suspect that Paul would be appalled if he could see how far some people have run with this one verse about ailments that could not have been major.


Paul told Timothy that Scripture makes you perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. How could you be perfect and furnished unto all good works if you were out of circulation because of illness? Keeping you healthy is part of what Scripture will do. Anyone even in the Old Testament could have known that from Proverbs 4:20-22.

It is surely a wrong assumption that Paul told Timothy to use wine instead of believing God for healing. Given the ministerial track record of the apostle Paul, it seems unlikely that Paul would never have counseled him to believe God for his healing. You can't prove an argument from silence either way. However, given Timothy's apparent trouble staying healthy, Paul gave him some natural advice. It is a good thing for Christians to do what they can in the natural to stay healthy. That is not unspiritual. Bodily exercise does profit a little (as Paul also told Timothy in 1 Tim 4:8, although here the point is that exercising yourself unto godliness is far more important). You don't throw common sense out the window just because you're saved.


You can just read the verse in question (1 Tim 5:23) and realize that Timothy was not constantly sick. Paul did not tell him to drink wine because of his illness. He said to do it because of his frequent illnesses. If you just stayed sick, that would be an illness, not illnesses in the plural. To have illnesses, you must first have an illness and then be healthy and then get another illness. Timothy could not have been ill all the time. Paul said the opposite. He gave Timothy some advice about what to do about the fact that he seemed to keep getting sick again after recovering from his sicknesses. Perhaps there was a water problem there, and Timothy needed to stop drinking it because it was making him sick. Yes, it was apparently a chronically recurring condition, but Paul tried to rid Timothy of it. He definitely did not tell Timothy, "Just accept that it isn't God's will for you to be healed of this," as many today would think.

Since Timothy had recurring illnesses, for all you know Timothy did use his faith when he got sick to get rid of the illnesses, and Paul was just trying to help Timothy not get sick in the first place!

This verse is a good answer to all who wonder if taking medicine is okay. It surely is if Paul told Timothy to use natural means to help him get healed. Why not do all you can to be in the health that is the known will of God (3 John 2)?

This is not the only time that Scripture refers to eating habits and health. Proverbs 25:16 gives us some natural advice against making yourself sick by pigging out on sweets: "Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it." (Side note: Solomon did not say not to eat sweets at all; he just said to do so in moderation.) You need to respect natural laws concerning eating to stay healthy. As any doctor can tell you, you can make yourself sick without any help from the devil simply by eating poorly. On the other end, do not become like some "health food nut" Christians who are busier promoting the gospel of brown rice, unbleached sugar and tofu than the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ! This was not Jesus' message and is not our message. Paul even warned Timothy about people who commanded others to "abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:3-5).


You should see the Biblical balance of neither eating unhealthily nor getting preoccupied with food.

So why didn't Paul just "heal" Timothy? If healing was for Timothy, why did Paul give him natural advice instead of just laying hands on him and healing him? The answer to this question is obvious from 1 Timothy itself. Paul was writing from Macedonia to a man in Ephesus. Get out your map and you'll see that Macedonia is not exactly around the corner from Ephesus! A personal visit to Timothy would have required a very long trip. Paul couldn't lay hands on a man in Ephesus from Macedonia! If Paul were anywhere near Timothy, he could have just gone and visited him instead of writing him a long letter! That is the simple reason why Paul did not just "heal" him when he wrote 1 Timothy.


Anyone using this verse "against" healing should note that Paul's advice to Timothy was explicitly so that Timothy would be healed. Paul did not say that Timothy's "often infirmities" were his cross to bear and that he should accept them. As always, Paul's view on illness was that it was something to be avoided, not accepted. This should be your view as well.

Acts 27:33-34 shows us another case where Paul gave people natural advice for their health.

The objector usually adds something about how Paul didn't tell Timothy to "stand in faith" for his stomach. Paul did tell Timothy to follow after faith (1 Tim 6:11), to "fight the good fight of faith" (1 Tim 6:12) and to "hold faith" (1 Tim 1:19). He was exhorted to be an example in faith (1 Tim 4:12). He stressed the importance of "unfeigned faith" (1 Tim 1:5), avoiding foolishness that was not the godly edifying which is in faith (1 Tim 1:4), and that men were to pray without doubting (1 Tim 2:8)!


Think about it -- today, many use this one stomach verse to justify praying while doubting -- doubting God's willingness to answer the petition for healing, figuring that in his sovereignty, God may make an exception like he supposedly did for Timothy! Funny, that's NOT how Paul told Timothy that prayer should be done!

Of course, since the faith exhortations were not in the context of Timothy's stomach, some people will consider them irrelevant to the subject. But actually, there is no real context to the verse about Timothy's stomach. The surrounding verses are totally unrelated.

Since Timothy was in church leadership, he was obligated to pray for the sick himself (James 5:14-16) since he would be in the class of "elder" described by James. God did not have one standard for Timothy's church and another for other churches, so Timothy had to believe in and practice the laying on of hands for healing himself.

Objection: Paul told Timothy to drink wine instead of believing God for healing[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"][/FONT]

 

[franky67]

Yes, I agree. However its hard to deny that God teaches us that if we follow his ways that we will have peace and even long life. Im not denying that miracles do happen, im just trying to explore the whole truth about healing both mind and body. And what about Mathew 7? These people thought that they were performing miracles but were rejected by Christ, Christ seems to emphasize following his commands.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus said "When you have seen Me, then you have seen the Father"

Jesus is the exact image of our Father God, and now back to Isaiah, the word for healing both in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 103:3 , is rapha, God is very concerned with our physical healing.

Matthew 7:24 is concerned with the attitude of our heart, just as God rejected their burnt offerings, when their heart was not right.

So we can fake following the commands, but God sees our heart.

Go back in the four gospels and review the instructions Jesus gave the twelve, and the seventy He sent out, and what He told them to do.

He said signs would follow the preaching of the gospel, without signs following, the message is incomplete.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Restoresmysoul, What do you think of this explanation? I think it’s a pretty well rounded answer on 1 Timothy 5:23 :

]

Thank you. Your post was very lengthy so I had to speed reed through it, but I noticed a couple things that caught my eye. You mention the water and the wine. I sometimes use vinegar for my stomach and i've heard people say that sometimes wine in the bible may actually mean vinegar. Vinegar is made the same way wine is but the difference is in how much air is allowed in while it ferments, I think. Vinegar is good for stomach problems like ulcers. Also I would like to ask, what does the original greek text say? Does it tell timothy not to drink water at all? Or does it instead tell timothy to drink water and wine?

Also, you mention James and I use James often to raise my concerns about Name it and claim it preachers. James doesn't tell us to just believe or to name it and claim it, but instead James says that if we are sick that we should call for the elders to pray over us. Another thing about James words that we can consider is this, James says that if we are afflicted that we should pray, not the elders. What is afflicted? Depression maybe? If so then I agree. If we are depressed we should pray and wait on God until the depression lifts. This isn't a healing exactly but more of a Spiritual battle that we fight with faith, not healing faith but faith that waits on God, prays and perseveres.


Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

 

[melody123]

[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"]But my concern is about how we gain things like peace in our mind by obeying the commands of the Lord. For example, if I pray for Gods help in obeying him and I fail to follow his instruction then why would I have peace? God chastens every believer and he chastens us for our own good, out of love.[/FONT]
[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"] [/FONT]
[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"]For me, trust and peace have come through conviction, often repentance, and revelations of many Truths from the Holy Spirit -- as I meditated on His Word. It is supernatural. This led to obedience , because what a man believes, he speaks, acts upon and follows without doubt. All I had to do was to give my time, be open and receiving and He did the rest.

A person may receive healing from an illness, suffering unto death just from prayers and casting out aione (I’m thinking of Healing Rooms), but I don’t think it will always assure peace. True peace comes, I think, rather, from submitting to God, and being right with God. I think that healing then becomes a bonus, a result of that..[/FONT]

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Jesus said "When you have seen Me, then you have seen the Father"

Jesus is the exact image of our Father God, and now back to Isaiah, the word for healing both in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 103:3 , is rapha, God is very concerned with our physical healing.

Matthew 7:24 is concerned with the attitude of our heart, just as God rejected their burnt offerings, when their heart was not right.

So we can fake following the commands, but God sees our heart.

Go back in the four gospels and review the instructions Jesus gave the twelve, and the seventy He sent out, and what He told them to do.

He said signs would follow the preaching of the gospel, without signs following, the message is incomplete.

The word healing may not always mean physical healing, and this is why im trying to understand 1 Timothy 5:23. Im not suggesting that you are incorrect, im only suggesting that it seems difficult to understand why timothy wasn't healed but instead was directed by Paul to use medication. You mentioned signs would follow a ministry, I cannot deny this, but not every believer has the gift of healing as im sure you would agree, God gives different gifts according to His purpose. And im still wondering about Mathew 7 and what it means.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"]But my concern is about how we gain things like peace in our mind by obeying the commands of the Lord. For example, if I pray for Gods help in obeying him and I fail to follow his instruction then why would I have peace? God chastens every believer and he chastens us for our own good, out of love.[/FONT]
[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"] [/FONT]
[FONT="Verdana","sans-serif"]For me, trust and peace have come through conviction, often repentance, and revelations of many Truths from the Holy Spirit -- as I meditated on His Word. It is supernatural. This led to obedience , because what a man believes, he speaks, acts upon and follows without doubt. All I had to do was to give my time, be open and receiving and He did the rest.

A person may receive healing from an illness, suffering unto death just from prayers and casting out aione (I’m thinking of Healing Rooms), but I don’t think it will always assure peace. True peace comes, I think, rather, from submitting to God, and being right with God. I think that healing then becomes a bonus, a result of that..[/FONT]

Thank you. When I mention peace im referring to gaining peace by obeying Gods commands. There is also much to be said about peace coming through Grace, and when we become contrite and pray for Gods forgiveness we can have peace by trusting in His mercy, but until we have overcome that sin altogether peace can still seem incomplete. This is my opinion anyway. So im referring to peace as a kind of healing that comes both through grace and obedience.

 

[melody123]

Also I would like to ask, what does the original greek text say? Does it tell timothy not to drink water at all? Or does it instead tell timothy to drink water and wine?

In Biblehub’s commentaries, this is their explanation. I believe the instruction is to not be just a water drinker . Some references say that people actually mixed their wine with water.

Vincent's Word Studies
[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/5-23.htm[/FONT]

Drink no longer water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότε&#953
The verb N.T.o. olxx. Rend. be no longer a drinker of water. Timothy is not enjoined to abstain from water, but is bidden not to be a water-drinker, entirely abstaining from wine. The kindred noun ὑδροπότης is used by Greek comic writers to denote a mean-spirited person. See Aristoph. Knights, 319.
But use a little wine (ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρω&#834

The reverse antithesis appears in Hdt. i. 171, of the Persians: οὐκ οἴνῳ διαχρέονται ἀλλ' ὑδροποτέουσι they do not indulge in wine but are water-drinkers. Comp. Plato, Repub. 561 C, τοτὲ μεν μεθύων - αὖθις δὲ ὑδροποτῶν sometimes he is drunk - then he is for total-abstinence. With a little wine comp. much wine, 1 Timothy 3:8; Titus 2:3.

For thy stomach's sake (διὰ στόμαχο&#957
Στόμαχος N.T.o. olxx. The appearance

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]
What is afflicted? Depression maybe? If so then I agree. If we are depressed we should pray and wait on God until the depression lifts. This isn't a healing exactly but more of a Spiritual battle that we fight with faith, not healing faith but faith that waits on God, prays and perseveres.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]
Yes, it looks like the word affliction is not a disease. It is temporary, misfortune, mistreatment. It does mention the word : depression… http://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/view.cgi?n=148

Yes, I agree that depression is a spiritual battle. In Art Mathias’ book “In His Own Image” and I’m sure my other book “A More Excellent Way To Be in Health” would agree, that depression is the result of some or all of these spiritual/emotional strongholds : self-bitterneses, self-condemnation, guilt, anxiety, hopelessness, anger, rage, hostility. I would say a healing does come once one repents and take responsibility for those things by breaking off agreement with them, and power over one. Renewing the mind with God’s Word, and taking every thought captive is crucial for it to last, in my opinion. [/FONT]

 

[melody123]

Thank you. When I mention peace im referring to gaining peace by obeying Gods commands. There is also much to be said about peace coming through Grace, and when we become contrite and pray for Gods forgiveness we can have peace by trusting in His mercy, but until we have overcome that sin altogether peace can still seem incomplete. This is my opinion anyway. So im referring to peace as a kind of healing that comes both through grace and obedience.


Absolutely, I guess it depends on the sin, too ! Confessing sins such as unforgiveness or self hatred towards oneself for example, usually after repentance and casting out of strongholds, peace does come right away. The load will feel lighter. But if it's something like a shopping addiction, maybe,it may take time to walk it out, but, surely there are times when people are healed instantly.

It might be valuable to see or examine oneself on what the emotions are behind certain things, sins , we keep doing (maybe ask Holy Spirit because a lot of time we just don't know), because it might be that if we deal with the emotional strongholds, the sin action, ie the shopping addiction, will go away, when we repent of the emotional stronghold. I think frequently sins are a results of our hurts and fears. Some things also need casting out , because they are evil spirits, like fear is...

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Also I would like to ask, what does the original greek text say? Does it tell timothy not to drink water at all? Or does it instead tell timothy to drink water and wine?

In Biblehub’s commentaries, this is their explanation. I believe the instruction is to not be just a water drinker . Some references say that people actually mixed their wine with water.

Vincent's Word Studies
[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/5-23.htm[/FONT]

Drink no longer water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότε&#953
The verb N.T.o. olxx. Rend. be no longer a drinker of water. Timothy is not enjoined to abstain from water, but is bidden not to be a water-drinker, entirely abstaining from wine. The kindred noun ὑδροπότης is used by Greek comic writers to denote a mean-spirited person. See Aristoph. Knights, 319.
But use a little wine (ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρω&#834

The reverse antithesis appears in Hdt. i. 171, of the Persians: οὐκ οἴνῳ διαχρέονται ἀλλ' ὑδροποτέουσι they do not indulge in wine but are water-drinkers. Comp. Plato, Repub. 561 C, τοτὲ μεν μεθύων - αὖθις δὲ ὑδροποτῶν sometimes he is drunk - then he is for total-abstinence. With a little wine comp. much wine, 1 Timothy 3:8; Titus 2:3.

For thy stomach's sake (διὰ στόμαχο&#957
Στόμαχος N.T.o. olxx. The appearance

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]
What is afflicted? Depression maybe? If so then I agree. If we are depressed we should pray and wait on God until the depression lifts. This isn't a healing exactly but more of a Spiritual battle that we fight with faith, not healing faith but faith that waits on God, prays and perseveres.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]
Yes, it looks like the word affliction is not a disease. It is temporary, misfortune, mistreatment. It does mention the word : depression… http://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/view.cgi?n=148

Yes, I agree that depression is a spiritual battle. In Art Mathias’ book “In His Own Image” and I’m sure my other book “A More Excellent Way To Be in Health” would agree, that depression is the result of some or all of these spiritual/emotional strongholds : self-bitterneses, self-condemnation, guilt, anxiety, hopelessness, anger, rage, hostility. I would say a healing does come once one repents and take responsibility for those things by breaking off agreement with them, and power over one. Renewing the mind with God’s Word, and taking every thought captive is crucial for it to last, in my opinion. [/FONT]

Thank you. Are you suggesting that Paul is in fact telling Timothy to drink wine as medication? or are you suggesting that this scripture has another meaning altogether? Also, I once heard that the Roman soldiers drank a cheap wine that was close to vinegar, i'm not sure if this is true but I heard it somewhere. Vinegar has many medicinal uses I think.

 

[contango]

Hi, I always struggled to understand healing miracles. I guess im a person who thinks we should follow Christ and persevere through any circumstances and keep our faith in God, even if we are not healed. Im not suggesting that miracles don't happen, obviously the bible records many of them and so they are real. I struggle to understand 1 Timothy 5:23, at first this scripture gave me hope because it was proof that even apostles had illnesses, but now im wondering if I understand it correctly. I still believe that this scripture records an example of Christians not being in perfect health but I was told by someone that I was delusional for my beliefs, so i'm willing to open my mind to other possibilities. Please, I would like to hear opinions, im not here to debate, only listen. Thank you.

Personally I think the notion that we are guaranteed perfect health is a dangerous theology because it requires us to twist God's word as if we were in a position to wag our finger at God and demand something on the basis of misquoting a promise.

Many discussions like this end up in the sort of place where you'd think the only options were "claim your healing and it's yours" or "God doesn't heal any more". The third option, which I believe to be the case, is that God can and does heal today but doesn't necessarily heal everyone who is sick.

I understand "by his stripes you are healed" to refer to being healed from the curse of sin and death rather than physical healing of any and all ailments.

When Adam sinned God pronounced the curse of death upon mankind. Whereas previously we could be immortal, when sin entered the world God decided that we would die. From dust we came and from dust we will return. If we are to die then either we must be sick and degenerate into death, or we must be perfectly healthy until we suddenly drop dead for no readily apparent reason. Given those options I think I'd prefer the sickness route - it gives us a fair chance to say goodbye to loved ones before they die, not to mention avoiding the total chaos associated with people just falling down dead.

Another trouble with the idea that God always heals is how we address the situation when God quite clearly hasn't healed. If our theology requires us to blame the person who is not healed for hidden sin or for lacking faith I would say our theology is bad. We are not in a position to assume that another person has hidden sin in their life, and we are not in a position to judge the level of faith another person has.

Some people say that it requires no faith to believe in a God who does not perform miracles on our demand. I would say the opposite - to see someone crippled with MS or cancer, who for whatever reason has not been healed by God, and who still believes that God is there and loves them immensely, is not a situation where I would care to suggest that they lack faith. I find it hard to regard their faith as any weaker than my own - if anything they require more faith to believe in a God who has apparently chosen not to heal them, than I have to believe in a God who has blessed me with good health.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Thank you. When I mention peace im referring to gaining peace by obeying Gods commands. There is also much to be said about peace coming through Grace, and when we become contrite and pray for Gods forgiveness we can have peace by trusting in His mercy, but until we have overcome that sin altogether peace can still seem incomplete. This is my opinion anyway. So im referring to peace as a kind of healing that comes both through grace and obedience.


Absolutely, I guess it depends on the sin, too ! Confessing sins such as unforgiveness or self hatred towards oneself for example, usually after repentance and casting out of strongholds, peace does come right away. The load will feel lighter. But if it's something like a shopping addiction, maybe,it may take time to walk it out, but, surely there are times when people are healed instantly.

It might be valuable to see or examine oneself on what the emotions are behind certain things, sins , we keep doing (maybe ask Holy Spirit because a lot of time we just don't know), because it might be that if we deal with the emotional strongholds, the sin action, ie the shopping addiction, will go away, when we repent of the emotional stronghold. I think frequently sins are a results of our hurts and fears. Some things also need casting out , because they are evil spirits, like fear is...

I think that often things like shopping addictions are nothing more than covetousness and they can be dealt with by reading or hearing the doctrine which the Lord and the Apostles taught about covetousness, then it just takes a serious effort to put covetous thoughts out of our mind and also to walk in wisdom by setting our affections, our thoughts, on heaven instead of worldly things. Maybe this is about sowing to the spirit by being content with what we already have.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Personally I think the notion that we are guaranteed perfect health is a dangerous theology because it requires us to twist God's word as if we were in a position to wag our finger at God and demand something on the basis of misquoting a promise.

Many discussions like this end up in the sort of place where you'd think the only options were "claim your healing and it's yours" or "God doesn't heal any more". The third option, which I believe to be the case, is that God can and does heal today but doesn't necessarily heal everyone who is sick.

I understand "by his stripes you are healed" to refer to being healed from the curse of sin and death rather than physical healing of any and all ailments.

When Adam sinned God pronounced the curse of death upon mankind. Whereas previously we could be immortal, when sin entered the world God decided that we would die. From dust we came and from dust we will return. If we are to die then either we must be sick and degenerate into death, or we must be perfectly healthy until we suddenly drop dead for no readily apparent reason. Given those options I think I'd prefer the sickness route - it gives us a fair chance to say goodbye to loved ones before they die, not to mention avoiding the total chaos associated with people just falling down dead.

Another trouble with the idea that God always heals is how we address the situation when God quite clearly hasn't healed. If our theology requires us to blame the person who is not healed for hidden sin or for lacking faith I would say our theology is bad. We are not in a position to assume that another person has hidden sin in their life, and we are not in a position to judge the level of faith another person has.

Some people say that it requires no faith to believe in a God who does not perform miracles on our demand. I would say the opposite - to see someone crippled with MS or cancer, who for whatever reason has not been healed by God, and who still believes that God is there and loves them immensely, is not a situation where I would care to suggest that they lack faith. I find it hard to regard their faith as any weaker than my own - if anything they require more faith to believe in a God who has apparently chosen not to heal them, than I have to believe in a God who has blessed me with good health.

I agree. I think its better to set our affections on heaven instead of these earthly bodies that will wear out and die anyway. I don't think seeking the kingdom is about having good health necessarily. As Paul says, the kingdom is about peace and righteousness and joy in the spirit. But there is the problem I am concerned with. If a preacher teaches this "name it and claim it" doctrine then he is setting us up for a huge disappointment if we are not healed, this robs our joy and peace and instead creates confusion and frustration that takes our focus off of heaven and off of righteousness. It opens the door for unfair judgment by others and can be a huge stumbling block. I think faith is about trusting God no matter what happens in this world, its not just a matter of miracles. Faith isn't tested by our ability to be healed in my opinion, but faith is tested by adversity and trials. I think that "name it and claim it" preachers are not leading people to seek the kingdom but instead leading them to set their affections on earthly things rather than heaven, in my oppinion

 

[melody123]

[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]I think that often things like shopping addictions are nothing more than covetousness and they can be dealt with by reading or hearing the doctrine which the Lord and the Apostles taught about covetousness, then it just takes a serious effort to put covetous thoughts out of our mind and also to walk in wisdom by setting our affections, our thoughts, on heaven instead of worldly things. Maybe this is about sowing to the spirit by being content with what we already have[/FONT]
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Yes, and it also could be a result of depression, anxiety, or a distraction from dealing/facing difficult issues. It gives a temporary happiness. All of these including covetousness (which might be fear of lack and in trusting God) are sins ..[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]Many discussions like this end up in the sort of place where you'd think the only options were "claim your healing and it's yours" or "God doesn't heal any more". The third option, which I believe to be the case, is that God can and does heal today but doesn't necessarily heal everyone who is sick.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]I believe about 80% of all diseases are spiritually rooted. Some diseases are not because of a person’s sin, but it is a generational or inherited curse, passed down from mother or father.. Some illness are from accidents and injury. [/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]Why someone is not healed, is never to be judged. There can be many blocks to healing, one of which is that, it is just your time to go.
When Adam sinned God pronounced the curse of death upon mankind. Whereas previously we could be immortal, when sin entered the world God decided that we would die. From dust we came and from dust we will return. If we are to die then either we must be sick and degenerate into death, or we must be perfectly healthy until we suddenly drop dead for no readily apparent reason. Given those options I think I'd prefer the sickness route - it gives us a fair chance to say goodbye to loved ones before they die, not to mention avoiding the total chaos associated with people just falling down dead.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]God has given us a long life, but surely we will have to die one day. Many diseases are from disobedience, and shorten people’s lives.
Another trouble with the idea that God always heals is how we address the situation when God quite clearly hasn't healed. If our theology requires us to blame the person who is not healed for hidden sin or for lacking faith I would say our theology is bad. We are not in a position to assume that another person has hidden sin in their life, and we are not in a position to judge the level of faith another person has. [/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]I don’t see it like that.. We are all the same.. We all have sin, and we sin everyday. Some sins we cannot see. Maybe it’s just me that has this problem of ignorance lol [/FONT]J[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"], but in any case, it is all good news because God’s got us covered. We don’t need to be afraid of it, nor feel condemned by it. There should be no blame and no judgement, only compassion, love and understanding. [/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]God says everybody has been given a measure of Faith. He is not a respector of persons.
Some people say that it requires no faith to believe in a God who does not perform miracles on our demand. I would say the opposite - to see someone crippled with MS or cancer, who for whatever reason has not been healed by God, and who still believes that God is there and loves them immensely, is not a situation where I would care to suggest that they lack faith. I find it hard to regard their faith as any weaker than my own - if anything they require more faith to believe in a God who has apparently chosen not to heal them, than I have to believe in a God who has blessed me with good health.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]It’s just possible.. that the fact that the church body has denied healing for today for so long, that they have not been educated on the roots of disease, and that is why we are not seeing healing. Could it be.. that if we do not have this knowledge, then how can we be healed ? What if it’s possible that MS could be healed if we understood that it may be rejection (often by a father), self hatred, guilt and depression? What if it was possible that Breast Cancer could be healed if we knew that it may be because of bitterness and unforgiveness towards another blood relative female, involving anxiety and fear? (Many of these are at the calibre of evil spirits). At least we would have so much more to work with…Maybe I am wrong.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]I agree. I think its better to set our affections on heaven instead of these earthly bodies that will wear out and die anyway.[/FONT]
God is not a vending machine. We are to seek first the Kingdom of Heaven.
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I don't think seeking the kingdom is about having good health necessarily. As Paul says, the kingdom is about peace and righteousness and joy in the spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]But good health can be a by product of it. I think our Health is important to God. It helps us have the energy to fulfill God’s unique plan and purpose for us on Earth. We are commanded to take care of our temple – get good rest, eat well, drink water etc..[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"] But there is the problem I am concerned with. If a preacher teaches this "name it and claim it" doctrine then he is setting us up for a huge disappointment if we are not healed, this robs our joy and peace and instead creates confusion and frustration that takes our focus off of heaven and off of righteousness.
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]I don’t think that most get healed from name it and claim it, but I have heard some stories. Some people do very well with deliverance ministry of evil spirits and prayer and then renewing their minds with God's Word thereafter.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"] It opens the door for unfair judgment by others and can be a huge stumbling block.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]Only if you are a judgemental Christian who has never suffered and been broken before..[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"] I think faith is about trusting God no matter what happens in this world, its not just a matter of miracles. [/FONT]
[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]Absolutely, I agree.[/FONT]
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[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]Faith isn't tested by our ability to be healed in my opinion, but faith is tested by adversity and trials.[/FONT]
[FONT="Arial Narrow","sans-serif"]It’s not about faith so much, but about gaining knowledge of becoming sanctified for healing.
.The Glory goes to Him, not our measure of faith, which each one is given equally.. [/FONT]
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