1 Timothy 2:12

[versesvsvices]

1. Do you believe there is a God and that we will answer for the lives we've lived and how we've conducted ourselves?

I don't know if there is a god. I know that the God described in The Bible is no benevolent being.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurius

(I know this quote gets refuted a lot with "but free will," but there's a lot of bad in the world outside of human choice.)

2. Do you believe all religions are the same because, as you have said, all believers in any religion believe their particular relgion is correct?

I don't believe all religions are the same. All believers (no matter what they believe) are the same in that they believe just as strongly that they are right as you do that you are right.

3. If you believe we are accountable for the things we do wrong in this life, what would you call those wrongs, whether word, thought or deed, we've all committed in this life?

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this question. What word I use to describe wrongdoings doesn't really mean anything... words are just words; it's the meaning behind them that matters.

Those asked, again I would say...

[Bible quotes]

Quoting the Bible when speaking to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible is just as effective as it would be for me to quote the teachings of Dr Suess when speaking to you. The Bible itself doesn't prove anything. I can write a story right now and put a sentence in there that says "This is the word of the REAL God and it is all true and if you believe otherwise then you will burn forever."

It's fine with me that you believe The Bible is true, but Bible quotes have no meaning for me. The more I read it, the more I see just a mediocre storybook.

I apologize it that's rude to say on a Christian forum. You're welcome to your beliefs; I'm just trying to be upfront about my perspective.

I've studied the world's religions but would not say that I'm an expert of any sort. I know there are legends, mythology, stories and traditions that present what I would deem, counterfeit Christ's if you will but the true Christ, who is verifiable by historical accounts and biblical text, is a full universe away from those.

You seem to be intelligent and articulate and have used quotes and examples from different relgious systems in your answers to try and prove your point.

I would respond to your position that all relgious systems are basically the same and those that believe them would tell you they area correct and/or the one true religion or way to God with this;

There is no other "religion" (a word I very much dislike, because as previously stated, it is about RELATIONSHIP and not RELIGION), that states and then shows, that a Holy God, who created all things, reached down to fallen man to save him, when he could not save himself. No other religious system shows God giving His most preciouis gift to an undeserving, lost mankind, to redeem them back to Himself. One who paid a price He didn't have to pay for a human race who didn't deserve it.

Do diligence to find one of the major world religions that teaches saving grace by faith in One, who though sinless paid for the world's sin to restore them to loving relatioinship to their Creator.

I believe you will find religions that say you can be LIKE god, or you can BECOME A GOD yourself, or that you can reach a level of god consciousness / perfect emptiness or...live a life that may or may not be acceptable to that god, depending on how the scale of your life balances out at the end.

That's not entirely true. This is the only religion that involves a One True Savior that really took hold, yes, but there are several stories that pre-date Jesus that follow the same basic storyline. Mithraism, for example. Even so, popularity doesn't make something correct.

Neither does uniqueness. It's not difficult to come up with a religious text; Joseph Smith didn't seem to have much trouble with it. Many of the hundreds (thousands?) of religions that have come and gone throughout time have been unique. Yours isn't right just because it's the only one like it. Rather, I believe it's popular because it's one of the only two that I'm aware of where non-believers are threatened with hell. The other being Islam, the second most popular religion.

lol i dont think so - would it not be arrogant to assume that ,while they still live ,there is not hope of change therefore it is fully possible that their search has not ended - tut tut how 'wude' to say its arrogant lol

Well then your search hasn't ended either. So neener-neener. xD

it returns to a decision by each of us to - Believe!
then act on that believe as evidence that we do .

I do. I just don't believe the same things as you. I like my belief-system. I believe in kindness and empathy and equality, where parts of The Bible preach female subjugation and bigotry and sometimes violence. I believe in the majesty of life and the world, where Christianity tells me that life is a trial to be endured. Millions of Christians deny science laid out in front of them because of a book that wasn't even written by God--it was written by men.

That who ever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life .
please- turn away from your own thinking and Believe.

Bribes won't change my beliefs. I find the idea of turning my back on my beliefs because someone told me I'd be rewarded to be repugnant. There are things The Bible preaches that I know are wrong, and I'm not going to sell out because a book says I'll live past death if I do.

Is that really all you have for me? Turn my back on my beliefs and follow something that feels so wrong because an ancient text says I'll be rewarded after I'm dead?

 

[thesunisout]

I don't know if there is a god. I know that the God described in The Bible is no benevolent being.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurius

(I know this quote gets refuted a lot with "but free will," but there's a lot of bad in the world outside of human choice.)

Since Evil & Suffering Exist, A Loving God Cannot ...? - YouTube

I don't believe all religions are the same. All believers (no matter what they believe) are the same in that they believe just as strongly that they are right as you do that you are right.

If they're not all the same then they can't all be right. Therefore, there are right answers and wrongs answers for who God is. Who you're really contending with is Jesus Christ:

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Believers of other religions may believe very strongly that they are right. Jesus says they are wrong.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this question. What word I use to describe wrongdoings doesn't really mean anything... words are just words; it's the meaning behind them that matters.

I think you've already clarified that you don't believe you're a sinner, even though it is objectively true that you've broken Gods laws. If you've ever lied, cheated, stolen, look at someone with lust, hated someone, coveted, taken the Lords name in vain, etc, then you have sinned. Everything that you put ahead of God in your life called idolatry and that is also a sin.

Quoting the Bible when speaking to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible is just as effective as it would be for me to quote the teachings of Dr Suess when speaking to you. The Bible itself doesn't prove anything. I can write a story right now and put a sentence in there that says "This is the word of the REAL God and it is all true and if you believe otherwise then you will burn forever."

It's fine with me that you believe The Bible is true, but Bible quotes have no meaning for me. The more I read it, the more I see just a mediocre storybook.

I apologize it that's rude to say on a Christian forum. You're welcome to your beliefs; I'm just trying to be upfront about my perspective.

What you said here is not rude, it is just pretty uninformed. To say, even in a secular context, that the bible is just a "mediocre storybook", is a profoundly ignorant statement. Have you ever seriously studied the history of western civilization? You will that even the most staunch atheist professor of western civ will readily admit the bibles dominant role in shaping our history and culture and its gigantic impact on the world at large. Far from a "mediocre storybook", it has transformed our world many times over. It is at the roots of western thought, and the way we see ourselves. Enlighten your understanding:

The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization: Vishal Mangalwadi: 9781595553225: Amazon.com: Books

That's not entirely true. This is the only religion that involves a One True Savior that really took hold, yes, but there are several stories that pre-date Jesus that follow the same basic storyline. Mithraism, for example. Even so, popularity doesn't make something correct.

Neither does uniqueness. It's not difficult to come up with a religious text; Joseph Smith didn't seem to have much trouble with it. Many of the hundreds (thousands?) of religions that have come and gone throughout time have been unique. Yours isn't right just because it's the only one like it. Rather, I believe it's popular because it's one of the only two that I'm aware of where non-believers are threatened with hell. The other being Islam, the second most popular religion.

Christianity is based on one thing only, the person of Jesus Christ and the transformed lives that come from having a personal relationship with Him. He is what makes it unique and without Him there is no such thing as Christianity.

Well then your search hasn't ended either. So neener-neener. xD

We will never know everything there is to know about God this side of life. God has told us what we need to know to know Him, and to be adopted into His family.

I do. I just don't believe the same things as you. I like my belief-system. I believe in kindness and empathy and equality, where parts of The Bible preach female subjugation and bigotry and sometimes violence. I believe in the majesty of life and the world, where Christianity tells me that life is a trial to be endured. Millions of Christians deny science laid out in front of them because of a book that wasn't even written by God--it was written by men.

It was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The bible teaches love; love for your neighbor (everyone), love for your enemies. It teaches that every person is fundamentally worthy of love and respect. It also says that there is no male or female in Christ Jesus.

Yes, the bible teaches wives should be submissive to their husbands, but it also says that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the church. I understand this offends your liberal sensibilities, but this is how God designed the family to operate. You are the one promoting something offensive, which is that the roles God has given men and women can be discarded. This is the very reason society is crumbling today, because the institution of the family is being destroyed.

Bribes won't change my beliefs. I find the idea of turning my back on my beliefs because someone told me I'd be rewarded to be repugnant. There are things The Bible preaches that I know are wrong, and I'm not going to sell out because a book says I'll live past death if I do.

Is that really all you have for me? Turn my back on my beliefs and follow something that feels so wrong because an ancient text says I'll be rewarded after I'm dead?

You won't turn your back on your beliefs:

Pro_14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

You've already made up your mind about the bible, and you are sure of yourself, because your way seems right to you. You think you have the bible figured out because you cherry picked some verses out of it that you think prove your case. You now think you can just dismiss it and move on. I know this is how you feel because I once felt the same way.

If you're particularly stubborn, as I was, it is going to take some very grueling trials for you to find out that you are wrong about this, and everything else you believe. That's offensive to people; I know it was offensive to me. No one likes to admit they're wrong, or have their personal freedom curtailed. But what people call freedom is this world is really slavery to sin. The only true freedom comes from the one who sets the captives free; Jesus Christ. He really loves you and I hope you find that out very soon. God bless.

 

[dollarsbill]

I'm also fully aware that The Bible says that The Bible is true. Just like every religious text says it is true.

And they are extremely oppose to each other. Jesus is God.

 

[versesvsvices]

Since Evil & Suffering Exist, A Loving God Cannot ...? - YouTube

(I know this quote gets refuted a lot with "but free will," but there's a lot of bad in the world outside of human choice.)

Disease, for example, has nothing to do with free will.

If they're not all the same then they can't all be right. Therefore, there are right answers and wrongs answers for who God is. Who you're really contending with is Jesus Christ:

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Believers of other religions may believe very strongly that they are right. Jesus says they are wrong.

So The Bible is right because The Bible says it's right. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not terribly impressed with that argument... I guess I'll repeat myself: Anyone can write a book that says that that book is true. And quoting The Bible to someone who believes it to be a work of fiction gets you absolutely nowhere.

I think you've already clarified that you don't believe you're a sinner

I never said anything of the sort, sorry.

What you said here is not rude, it is just pretty uninformed. To say, even in a secular context, that the bible is just a "mediocre storybook", is a profoundly ignorant statement. Have you ever seriously studied the history of western civilization? You will that even the most staunch atheist professor of western civ will readily admit the bibles dominant role in shaping our history and culture and its gigantic impact on the world at large. Far from a "mediocre storybook", it has transformed our world many times over. It is at the roots of western thought, and the way we see ourselves. Enlighten your understanding:

I didn't say it wasn't incredibly influential. My comments on the quality of the contents implies nothing about the historical importance of the book.

Christianity is based on one thing only, the person of Jesus Christ and the transformed lives that come from having a personal relationship with Him. He is what makes it unique and without Him there is no such thing as Christianity.

My point was that uniqueness of a story has nothing to do with the veracity of the story.

Yes, the bible teaches wives should be submissive to their husbands, but it also says that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the church. I understand this offends your liberal sensibilities, but this is how God designed the family to operate. You are the one promoting something offensive, which is that the roles God has given men and women can be discarded. This is the very reason society is crumbling today, because the institution of the family is being destroyed.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on pretty much all of that. I'll pass on going further with these comments and opening a huge can of worms though. Heh.

You won't turn your back on your beliefs:

Pro_14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

You've already made up your mind about the bible, and you are sure of yourself, because your way seems right to you. You think you have the bible figured out because you cherry picked some verses out of it that you think prove your case. You now think you can just dismiss it and move on. I know this is how you feel because I once felt the same way.

If you're particularly stubborn, as I was, it is going to take some very grueling trials for you to find out that you are wrong about this, and everything else you believe. That's offensive to people; I know it was offensive to me. No one likes to admit they're wrong, or have their personal freedom curtailed. But what people call freedom is this world is really slavery to sin. The only true freedom comes from the one who sets the captives free; Jesus Christ. He really loves you and I hope you find that out very soon. God bless.

There are, of course, plenty of passages in The Bible that are lovely. But I can't embrace a religion when I vehemently disagree with parts of it. That would be cherry-picking.

If I am proven to be wrong then I'll deal with that. So far all I've gotten on my "Reasons to be a Christian List" are: 1) The Bible says that The Bible is true, 2) The Bible says you'll go to heaven if you believe in Jesus, and 3) The Bible says you'll go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus.

It's really not much to work with. I do appreciate you helping me to work out my thoughts though.

And they are extremely oppose to each other.

So?

Jesus is God.

Says you.

 

[thesunisout]

So far all I've gotten on my "Reasons to be a Christian List" are: 1) The Bible says that The Bible is true, 2) The Bible says you'll go to heaven if you believe in Jesus, and 3) The Bible says you'll go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus.

The only reason to become a Christian is Jesus Christ. Here's a suggestion..Rather than picking apart the bible for reasons not to believe..why not do a study on Jesus Christ instead? Read His words, and promises, and pray about it. Read the gospel of John with an open mind, praying that God would reveal to you what the truth is.

The end truth about it is this. If you want to evaluate the claims of Jesus Christ, you have to give your life to Him. He told us how to get to know Him and if you refuse to do that then you are getting nowhere. You will simply come to your own conclusions instead of seeking Gods face. It has to do with the sincerity of your heart and not the veracity of your intellect. You've already judged God and set yourself above Him, because some things He commands offends your liberal sensibilities; ie you believe mans wisdom over Gods wisdom. The main point is that only God can change your heart, and He will only do that if you ask Him to.

And quoting The Bible to someone who believes it to be a work of fiction gets you absolutely nowhere

Even hardened atheist scholars believe Jesus was a real person. The bible is also, as confirmed by thousands of archaeological finds, 100 historically accurate. A lot of information that we know about ancient history comes from the bible. For instance, the Hittite civilization is only detailed in scripture. It's so accurate they even used the information in it to locate a specific tomb. So no, it's not a work of fiction. It's about real people and it is details real events. You might have other explanations for the supernatural events, and I understand that's the way you're looking at it, but you cannot deny its historicity and say it is fiction.

 

[versesvsvices]

The only reason to become a Christian is Jesus Christ. Here's a suggestion..Rather than picking apart the bible for reasons not to believe..why not do a study on Jesus Christ instead? Read His words, and promises, and pray about it. Read the gospel of John with an open mind, praying that God would reveal to you what the truth is.

I plan to continue to study Jesus Christ. I'm reading through Matthew right now. I'm not picking apart The Bible looking for reasons not to believe--I'm just reading The Bible and they're showing themselves quite readily. You have to understand, I was raised surrounded by Christians. Ones I quite like a lot. When I started reading The Bible and talking to people here, I was biased towards Christianity. I know that you believe that everyone who opens their mind properly to Christianity will just have to conclude that it's The Truth, but that's simply not the case.

The end truth about it is this. If you want to evaluate the claims of Jesus Christ, you have to give your life to Him. He told us how to get to know Him and if you refuse to do that then you are getting nowhere. You will simply come to your own conclusions instead of seeking Gods face. It has to do with the sincerity of your heart and not the veracity of your intellect. You've already judged God and set yourself above Him, because some things He commands offends your liberal sensibilities; ie you believe mans wisdom over Gods wisdom. The main point is that only God can change your heart, and He will only do that if you ask Him to.

I feel like a lot of Christians are telling me "If you want to believe in Jesus Christ, then first you have to believe in Jesus Christ."

I don't judge myself above the Christian God. I don't believe in him. There's a difference. I know there isn't a difference to you since you do believe in him, but I don't expect us to agree anyway.

Even hardened atheist scholars believe Jesus was a real person. The bible is also, as confirmed by thousands of archaeological finds, 100 historically accurate. A lot of information that we know about ancient history comes from the bible. For instance, the Hittite civilization is only detailed in scripture. It's so accurate they even used the information in it to locate a specific tomb. So no, it's not a work of fiction. It's about real people and it is details real events. You might have other explanations for the supernatural events, and I understand that's the way you're looking at it, but you cannot deny its historicity and say it is fiction.

I apologize, I meant the supernatural aspects. I realize The Bible isn't set in a completely alternate universe. Once I finish reading The Bible, I do plan to study further on historical evidence of God and Jesus.

You're right that many atheists agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed... as a regular person. They also agree that claiming to be the son of god wasn't a particularly uncommon thing.

 

[toLiJC]

the righteousness of God is always good when it is not presented with (a) haughtiness regardless of whether on the part of (a) man or (a) woman, however it must be known what for sure is the righteousness of God and what is not - it must be good, for God is Love

Blessings

 

[Inhiskingdom]

So... what's the deal?

No worries

This is a Jewish law, and a tradition to the Jewish people. It might have been taught but does not apply to us. When reading the bible you will come across many laws and traditions that the Jewish people did that was eventually done away with.

Paul knew this and so when he was in Jerusalem he would even shave his own head as an oathe to God, because they still believed in shaving heads. When in Rome he did as Romans. He did all this, and taught many things, including traditions like the one you speak of here because the people had always believed it, and Paul would never offend anyone, and therefore he did all these things that some of them might be saved. If you are interested you could study and look up a bunch of scriptures concerning allot of these carnal laws that the Jews did obey, but they are all pointless for us as Christians today, seeing as Christ has taken those laws to the Cross when he died.

 

[Inhiskingdom]

I plan to continue to study Jesus Christ. I'm reading through Matthew right now. I'm not picking apart The Bible looking for reasons not to believe--I'm just reading The Bible and they're showing themselves quite readily. You have to understand, I was raised surrounded by Christians. Ones I quite like a lot. When I started reading The Bible and talking to people here, I was biased towards Christianity. I know that you believe that everyone who opens their mind properly to Christianity will just have to conclude that it's The Truth, but that's simply not the case.


I feel like a lot of Christians are telling me "If you want to believe in Jesus Christ, then first you have to believe in Jesus Christ."

I don't judge myself above the Christian God. I don't believe in him. There's a difference. I know there isn't a difference to you since you do believe in him, but I don't expect us to agree anyway.


I apologize, I meant the supernatural aspects. I realize The Bible isn't set in a completely alternate universe. Once I finish reading The Bible, I do plan to study further on historical evidence of God and Jesus.

You're right that many atheists agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed... as a regular person. They also agree that claiming to be the son of god wasn't a particularly uncommon thing.

When studying the Bible notice how Jesus talks with his disciples. Notice how they cannot understand allot of what he says, his parables, and they even ask him to explain them. It was because the Spirit had not been poured out upon all flesh, there was no one but Jesus at the time to lead and guide them. There is a point in all this if you bear with me for but a moment.

Paul teaches, as did Jesus and the other apostles that there is a Spiritual body and a Natural Body, there is a spiritual mind, and a carnal(natural) mind. The Carnal is enmity against God, because it can not understand or comprehend the things of God. You can really study this in 1 Cor. 15, Paul explains this throughout the new testament many times.

Paul says..
1 Corinthians 3:1(KJV)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

When you accept Jesus Christ, and believe in him, you will receive his spirit, and with it the understanding and power that comes from God. It is a great thing to feel that power and have a understanding of that knowledge that God grants to us through his spirit. It is something that you can hear, you can feel it, and it quickens your soul, and you will be changed.

For those that do not believe, are in darkness and have a much harder time understanding many meanings of the bible. For the Bible was intended for the Church, and is intended to be understood spiritual, as God is a Spirit and we worship him in the Spirit and truth. Paul says that you can not take the Spiritual things of God, and twist them like unto the corruptible things of man(carnal). But if you have Christ in you, then you can start to understand the first principles, and eventually understand all things.


1 Corinthians 2:16(KJV)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Luke 8:10(KJV)

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Jesus made it clear here, that unto those with his Spirit is given to know all the mysteries of God, but to those without it is spoken in parables; that seeing(naturally reading) they might not see(spiritually understand). and hearing(natural hearing) they might not understand(spiritually hear).

I hope you keep an open mind is all that I pray, that in Christ you will find a peace, and truth. God does speak to those who have the ears to hear what the spirit says. Christ is the first step, and once you have this you can understand all things, much clearer, even the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:10(NASB)

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

 

[thegospel4all]

. Do you believe there is a God and that we will answer for the lives we've lived and how we've conducted ourselves?I don't know if there is a god. I know that the God described in The Bible is no benevolent being.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurius

(I know this quote gets refuted a lot with "but free will," but there's a lot of bad in the world outside of human choice.)


Originally Posted by thegospel4all

2. Do you believe all religions are the same because, as you have said, all believers in any religion believe their particular relgion is correct?
​

I don't believe all religions are the same. All believers (no matter what they believe) are the same in that they believe just as strongly that they are right as you do that you are right.


Originally Posted by thegospel4all

3. If you believe we are accountable for the things we do wrong in this life, what would you call those wrongs, whether word, thought or deed, we've all committed in this life?
​

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this question. What word I use to describe wrongdoings doesn't really mean anything... words are just words; it's the meaning behind them that matters.


Originally Posted by thegospel4all

Those asked, again I would say...

[Bible quotes]
​

Quoting the Bible when speaking to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible is just as effective as it would be for me to quote the teachings of Dr Suess when speaking to you. The Bible itself doesn't prove anything. I can write a story right now and put a sentence in there that says "This is the word of the REAL God and it is all true and if you believe otherwise then you will burn forever."

It's fine with me that you believe The Bible is true, but Bible quotes have no meaning for me. The more I read it, the more I see just a mediocre storybook.

I apologize it that's rude to say on a Christian forum. You're welcome to your beliefs; I'm just trying to be upfront about my perspective.

I believe you will find religions that say you can be LIKE god, or you can BECOME A GOD yourself, or that you can reach a level of god consciousness / perfect emptiness or...live a life that may or may not be acceptable to that god, depending on how the scale of your life balances out at the end.
​

That's not entirely true. This is the only religion that involves a One True Savior that really took hold, yes, but there are several stories that pre-date Jesus that follow the same basic storyline. Mithraism, for example. Even so, popularity doesn't make something correct.

Neither does uniqueness. It's not difficult to come up with a religious text;

In a nutshell, what I've heard you say:

I don't know if there is a god/God. But what you're really saying is that, if there was a god/God I could believe in, he/she would have to fit into my preconceived mold and set of standards. He/she would act the way I think they should act and do what I believe is right.

That god/God would have to be more like me.

You say that the Bible is a "mediocre story book" and the fact that I find it to be the very words of Life does not offend me.

You say you have Christian friends and began posting on this forum, leaning towards Christianity but your posts reveal your disdane for and bias against Christianity and the Bible. It doesn't offend me because I understand.

I could be wrong, but I'd probably be accurate in saying that you'd rather believe books written about the "theory" of evolution than mediocre stories written by men.

You'd rather not believe in the God described in the Bible but will gladly accept and believe theories about how our world exploded into existence via an unknown means, that began an uknown proess which is supposed to be taking us to an unknown end, ...(of course absent that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics and several other problems with evolutionary theory).

Therefore, society decides what is right and wrong, there is no absolute moral law or a moral law Giver. There is no such thing as "sin" just wrong /wrongs, which society sets the standards for.

I appreciate that you are here and so many posts, including my own, have tried to answer your questions and even debate with you. You accuse others of circular reasoning concerning the Bible and Christianity in general and your reasonings appears to be a model of circular reasoning as well.

Very much of what can be known of God is all around you every day Versesvsvices and has been your entire life. I believe you are here for reasons beyond what any of us may know right now or may ever know.

You have read and heard many truths, truths from well meaning people, including myself, that you appear to reject at their face...which is clearly the exercise of your free will to do so.

If you truly seek, you will find. If you truly knock, it will be opened to you.

 

[Michaelismyname]

versesvsvices

in the mornings being limited on time i don't always read posts fully so i wont give long quotes and replies .

but you used the term"know" again. saying you know the god of the bible is not a benevolent being - you cannot possibly "Know" that .I know that from belief from faith and then tangibly proven to me by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.
and if you were believe that he is not benevolent then that would be a contradiction, as it would be saying ,you believe the God of the bible is there - you just don't like him .
I accept that your beliefs are presently different - I say again, we present you ours and invite you to turn away from yours .

all the kindness in the world all the good you think you may be ,is not enough to obtain the level of righteousness it takes to enter the presence of God - who is life .
because the vessel in which it comes is contaminated at conception . for in your body you carry the blood of your parent and your grand parent and your great grand parent...so on and if any of these (beginning with Adam) have sinned then the sin is in their blood and passed to you and there is nothing you can do to save yourself .

by one man -Adam, sin entered and through one sinless man -Jesus, a way of salvation is made .
now you speak many words in your defense - but what is it you defend ? what is it you struggle against within yourself . folk do not defend what is not there ,they defend what is there .
this is not about whether you believe in the lord Jesus this is about humility - it takes a massive amount of humility to admit one is a sinner .this is where so many stop in their search - the truth is before them - but it effect ones prides and they turn away . but say what you may outwardly -you know your own conscience inwardly .

so again i invite you - turn away from your own way and follow GOd - listen to him and do as he instructs - not as man instructs but as GOD has spoken - so listen and so do and be saved .

I testify to you of that which i KNOW, that which i have seen and felt and tangibly experienced
you speak only your opinion .
opinion can never annul testimony - you can only reject it - never cancel it .
you can only, by willful choice - disbelieve . and it makes no reasonable sense to do so

 

[dollarsbill]

Says you.

Says the NT.

 

[versesvsvices]

No worries

This is a Jewish law, and a tradition to the Jewish people. It might have been taught but does not apply to us. When reading the bible you will come across many laws and traditions that the Jewish people did that was eventually done away with.

Paul knew this and so when he was in Jerusalem he would even shave his own head as an oathe to God, because they still believed in shaving heads. When in Rome he did as Romans. He did all this, and taught many things, including traditions like the one you speak of here because the people had always believed it, and Paul would never offend anyone, and therefore he did all these things that some of them might be saved. If you are interested you could study and look up a bunch of scriptures concerning allot of these carnal laws that the Jews did obey, but they are all pointless for us as Christians today, seeing as Christ has taken those laws to the Cross when he died.

That's interesting. I feel like you're in the "Old Testament is a bunch of stories to learn from; New Testament is the actual rules" camp. Which, sidenote, I think is the most relatable type of Christian.

When studying the Bible notice how Jesus talks with his disciples. Notice how they cannot understand allot of what he says, his parables, and they even ask him to explain them. It was because the Spirit had not been poured out upon all flesh, there was no one but Jesus at the time to lead and guide them. There is a point in all this if you bear with me for but a moment.

Paul teaches, as did Jesus and the other apostles that there is a Spiritual body and a Natural Body, there is a spiritual mind, and a carnal(natural) mind. The Carnal is enmity against God, because it can not understand or comprehend the things of God. You can really study this in 1 Cor. 15, Paul explains this throughout the new testament many times.

Paul says..
1 Corinthians 3:1(KJV)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

When you accept Jesus Christ, and believe in him, you will receive his spirit, and with it the understanding and power that comes from God. It is a great thing to feel that power and have a understanding of that knowledge that God grants to us through his spirit. It is something that you can hear, you can feel it, and it quickens your soul, and you will be changed.

For those that do not believe, are in darkness and have a much harder time understanding many meanings of the bible. For the Bible was intended for the Church, and is intended to be understood spiritual, as God is a Spirit and we worship him in the Spirit and truth. Paul says that you can not take the Spiritual things of God, and twist them like unto the corruptible things of man(carnal). But if you have Christ in you, then you can start to understand the first principles, and eventually understand all things.


1 Corinthians 2:16(KJV)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Luke 8:10(KJV)

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Jesus made it clear here, that unto those with his Spirit is given to know all the mysteries of God, but to those without it is spoken in parables; that seeing(naturally reading) they might not see(spiritually understand). and hearing(natural hearing) they might not understand(spiritually hear).

I hope you keep an open mind is all that I pray, that in Christ you will find a peace, and truth. God does speak to those who have the ears to hear what the spirit says. Christ is the first step, and once you have this you can understand all things, much clearer, even the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:10(NASB)

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

This makes a decent amount of sense. The problem is that I understand what The Bible is saying, I just dislike it too often. I dislike the overall message, which I think is a pretty glaring problem with becoming a Christian. I do like the points you're making though.

In a nutshell, what I've heard you say:

I don't know if there is a god/God. But what you're really saying is that, if there was a god/God I could believe in, he/she would have to fit into my preconceived mold and set of standards. He/she would act the way I think they should act and do what I believe is right.

That god/God would have to be more like me.

Not so much "more like me" as just not advocating things that are deplorable. I understand that, if God tells you to kill your family, you're supposed to have faith in God's plan and do it. If God says "Hey, let me make you gay, but don't actually be ga," you're supposed to spend your entire life praying the gay away. If God gives you cancer, you accept that a slow and painful death is part of His loving plan for you.

I see how a Christian would see people who don't believe in God based on those (and other) examples as arrogant, but we see you as foolish and desperate. Hopefully we can all respect each other anyway (and we have around here, certainly) because otherwise that's just a lose-lose. :/

You say that the Bible is a "mediocre story book" and the fact that I find it to be the very words of Life does not offend me.

Good. I realize I'm towing the line here between being honest and being a butt. I appreciate you talking this through with me without getting defensive about what I'm sure to you must seem like a pretty poor attitude.

You say you have Christian friends and began posting on this forum, leaning towards Christianity but your posts reveal your disdane for and bias against Christianity and the Bible. It doesn't offend me because I understand.

I don't just have Christian friends--my entire family is Christian; my grandparents (who raised me) and my in-laws are extremely involved in their churches. I was raised as a Christian, going to church and Sunday school. I never embraced Christianity, but I never rejected it either. I want to have children soon, and I thought it was shameful to raise them in a religion I've never really felt a part of, so I decided to look into it. And I very quickly started to dislike it. Any disdain and bias is based on experience. I know that you believe that real experience would have to lead me to Christianity, but every religion believes that and it just isn't so. Christianity feels increasingly wrong to me, and the only reason people can give me to go for it anyway is "If you ignore your heart and follow these rules, you go to a heaven that you don't even believe in." Bah.

I could be wrong, but I'd probably be accurate in saying that you'd rather believe books written about the "theory" of evolution than mediocre stories written by men.

You'd rather not believe in the God described in the Bible but will gladly accept and believe theories about how our world exploded into existence via an unknown means, that began an uknown proess which is supposed to be taking us to an unknown end, ...(of course absent that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics and several other problems with evolutionary theory).

You're confusing the word "theory" with "hypothesis". The colloquial usage of the word is interchangable with "hypothesis," sure, but the proper usage of it means that the theory has been tested and is a near certainty. "Gravity" is a theory.

Now you would rather believe in an entity that there is no proof of rather than a scientific theory that is observable, right out in front of you. You say I'm interpreting The Bible in a way that fits my preconvieved notion that God doesn't exist, I say you're interpreting an observable reality that's right in front of you in a way that fits your desire for The Bible's God to exist.

Your "second law of thermodynamics" comment is also based on a misunderstanding of the law. I'll be happy to explain that to you if you'd like.

Therefore, society decides what is right and wrong, there is no absolute moral law or a moral law Giver. There is no such thing as "sin" just wrong /wrongs, which society sets the standards for.

Society already does decide what's right and wrong. A pretty big chunk of people base their input on what their holy books tell them, but society is still a huge mix of people making up standards.

I don't feel like a need a moral law giver to tell me right from wrong. I do good, I feel good; I do bad, I feel bad. It comes from intrinsic motivation, rather than threats of hell and promises of eternal rewards.

versesvsvices

in the mornings being limited on time i don't always read posts fully so i wont give long quotes and replies .

but you used the term"know" again. saying you know the god of the bible is not a benevolent being - you cannot possibly "Know" that .I know that from belief from faith and then tangibly proven to me by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.

and if you were believe that he is not benevolent then that would be a contradiction, as it would be saying ,you believe the God of the bible is there - you just don't like him .

I'm not saying that I believe God is not benevolent--I'm saying that if He exists then He is not benevolent. If He exists, I don't think He's very nice, and I don't want to hang out with him.

I accept that your beliefs are presently different - I say again, we present you ours and invite you to turn away from yours .

But no one's given me a reason to.

all the kindness in the world all the good you think you may be ,is not enough to obtain the level of righteousness it takes to enter the presence of God - who is life .
because the vessel in which it comes is contaminated at conception . for in your body you carry the blood of your parent and your grand parent and your great grand parent...so on and if any of these (beginning with Adam) have sinned then the sin is in their blood and passed to you and there is nothing you can do to save yourself .

That's the thing about not being a Christian--I don't need to worry about righteousness if I don't believe in a heaven. I'm not worried about entering the presence of God. My motivation for being the best person I can be is to be happy and make those around me happy. I don't need to be perfect; I just need to be my best.

by one man -Adam, sin entered and through one sinless man -Jesus, a way of salvation is made .
now you speak many words in your defense - but what is it you defend ? what is it you struggle against within yourself . folk do not defend what is not there ,they defend what is there .
this is not about whether you believe in the lord Jesus this is about humility - it takes a massive amount of humility to admit one is a sinner .this is where so many stop in their search - the truth is before them - but it effect ones prides and they turn away . but say what you may outwardly -you know your own conscience inwardly .

I feel like I'm struggling more against social pressures than within myself. At this point I only care about Christianity due to peer pressure.

I don't think it takes much humility at all to admit one is a sinner. There aren't that many people in the world that claim to be perfect.

so again i invite you - turn away from your own way and follow GOd - listen to him and do as he instructs - not as man instructs but as GOD has spoken - so listen and so do and be saved .

Why? Saved from what?

I testify to you of that which i KNOW, that which i have seen and felt and tangibly experienced
you speak only your opinion .
opinion can never annul testimony - you can only reject it - never cancel it .
you can only, by willful choice - disbelieve . and it makes no reasonable sense to do so

I don't know what any of that means.

Says the NT.

Well my book says that there are seven gods, and mine is older than yours. (Sorry, I'm just being a brat; couldn't help myself. Don't take me seriously.)

 

[Michaelismyname]

Originally Posted by Michaelismyname
I testify to you of that which i KNOW, that which i have seen and felt and tangibly experienced
you speak only your opinion .
opinion can never annul testimony - you can only reject it - never cancel it .
you can only, by willful choice - disbelieve . and it makes no reasonable sense to do so
I don't know what any of that means.

it means -if we were sitting in a court room and i had to testify of what happened to me in regard to 1- believing in Jesus 2- acting on that belief in faith & 3 -receiving the promised result of doing so. - I have done so because i can.

if you were in that same court room you could only give your "opinion" about my testimony .
Now here is a new question - if you have chosen a predisposition to both "dislike the christian God" and willfully"disbelieve" any answer you are given in regard to him...

the why ask ?
----------------------
let me give you a better example-

answer these questions (if you will){i'v made them harmless for privacy reasons of course }

1, what is your favorite color ?
2, Do you have a Dog?
3,what color is your car ?

humor me for this little exercise -yes?

 

[dollarsbill]

Well my book says that there are seven gods, and mine is older than yours. (Sorry, I'm just being a brat; couldn't help myself. Don't take me seriously.)

The NT warns of Hell fire. What overrules the NT?

 

[versesvsvices]

it means -if we were sitting in a court room and i had to testify of what happened to me in regard to 1- believing in Jesus 2- acting on that belief in faith & 3 -receiving the promised result of doing so. - I have done so because i can.

if you were in that same court room you could only give your "opinion" about my testimony .

Without evidence that you can show others, everything is opinion. I think you're overestimating the value of your experience to others, while underestimating the value of the experience of others.

Now here is a new question - if you have chosen a predisposition to both "dislike the christian God" and willfully"disbelieve" any answer you are given in regard to him...

the why ask ?

I want my beliefs to be well-formed. I understand that you believe I'm going in the complete wrong direction, and that's fine, but I think it's important to think critically about one's life views. And I appreciate your help in doing so.

let me give you a better example-

answer these questions (if you will){i'v made them harmless for privacy reasons of course }

1, what is your favorite color ?
2, Do you have a Dog?
3,what color is your car ?

humor me for this little exercise -yes?[/quote]
1. Pink
2. No.
3. Silver.

The NT warns of Hell fire. What overrules the NT?

To the non-Christian majority... most things.

 

[Michaelismyname]

let me give you a better example-

answer these questions (if you will){i'v made them harmless for privacy reasons of course }

1, what is your favorite color ?
2, Do you have a Dog?
3,what color is your car ?
humor me for this little exercise -yes?[/quote]

1. Pink
2. No.
3. Silver.

now i say -
no its not pink
i don't believe you don't have a dog
and your car is not silver .

if i did so it is because i had chosen in advance to disbelieve .
and if I by my will -hold to that stance - nothing you can say will change it .
if i the asked more questions about those things - would you believe my questions were sincere ?
if you have a chosen predisposition towards unbelief - the you are being insincere when you say you are searching .
a searcher -searches .. they do not argue against - they go forward into what they are searching out .

 

[versesvsvices]

1. Is an opinion. Are you saying your religious beliefs are your opinion? I thought you were trying to convince me they were fact.

2. Whether or not I have a dog is an observable fact.

3. The color of my car is an observable fact.

You believe my search is insincere because you believe that any honest search will end in the same conclusion as yours. I understand that. It's not based in reality, but it's understandable that someone with strong faith would feel that way.

Anyway, we're going in circles here. You keep just telling me I should believe because The Bible says that The Bible is true, and that you know you're right and I should for some reason believe what you're saying... You can't badger me into Christianity, Michael. xP No one's offered me any compelling reason to believing in something that my instincts are warning me against, aside from promising rewards that I have no reason to believe in (heaven).

I'm still working my way through The Bible, but this is getting a little silly.

 

[dollarsbill]

The the non-Christian majority... most things.

I seriously doubt that God will ask permission to send the "non-Christian majority" to Hell fire.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[versesvsvices]

Most people go to hell? That sucks.