1 Timothy 2:12

[versesvsvices]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

So... what's the deal?

 

[ebedmelech]

So... what's the deal?

The totality of the passage begins at verse 9:

9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Paul is saying that women need to be taught because this is in a culture where women where put below men and often not educated.

However, we know that this doesn't mean women cannot teach but they are not permitted to have authority over men in the church. Paul clearly states in verse 14 that the REASON GOES BACK TO THE FALL..where Eve was deceived by Satan, and therefore women should not have authority over men in the church.

I don't make a big deal of it except if it happens in my church. I have visited churches where women where the pastor but it was no big deal because they have no authority over me...I'm not a member and not subject to their authority.

That is what I believe about this passage and I think I'm on firm footing because when the scripture speaks of the leadership of the churches it is a man. That is why I say the church has caved in to society because the scriptures are pretty clear on this point.

There are many churches in error here. I think women can teach men in the church, there's no admonition against that in the scripture, but they are not to be the authority over men in the church and the reason goes back to Eve's deception in "the fall".

Many churches have caved in to society that give women the pastorate in my view.

 

[versesvsvices]

But I do not allow a woman to teach

I think women can teach men in the church

Er, uh, I don't see your logic.

In all honesty, I really am liking this book less and less. Everything you just said is deplorable.

 

[Godel]

Er, uh, I don't see your logic.

It would help if you don't drop off half a verse. It's not simply, "not allow to teach" - there's the phrase "over a man" that you're leaving off. It's authority over men that is forbidden. Now, I don't know if the Greek sentence structure allows for the phrase "over a man" to be extend back to the "teaching" part or not - but that is what Ebedmelech is saying.

In all honesty, I really am liking this book less and less. Everything you just said is deplorable.

"Then the disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" - Mt.15:12. Jesus said a lot of things that some found deplorable. He just kept on preaching.

 

[Christopher3927]

Er, uh, I don't see your logic.

In all honesty, I really am liking this book less and less. Everything you just said is deplorable.

Hi there

God has a certain paradigm that he wants established in the Church. It appears that women are not allowed to have spiritual authority over men within the confines of the Church. This is a matter of rank and not a matter of worth. Just like in the military there is rank but all men are equally valuable. There doesn't seem to be a prohibition against women teaching other women and children, but they are not to have authority over the men.

God uses men and women equally but differently. God uses women to nurture and carry a child in her womb for nine months (like Mary did with Jesus ), he doesn't use men to do this, but this doesn't necessarily make women better than men.

Hammers and screwdrivers are both very valuable tools, but you wouldn't use a hammer to do the job of a screwdriver and you wouldn't use a screwdriver to do the job of a hammer, but no toolbox is complete without both.

God loves both men and women the same

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[versesvsvices]

These explanations aren't making this any better. Military ranks are gained by proving your worth, not based on what gender you are. We aren't hammers and screwdrivers--we're human beings.

Forget it. My intention isn't to argue this--my intention was just to have this explained to me. This is wrong. So many things about this book are wrong. I should've read it years ago.

I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to troll you guys. I'm trying to keep an open mind here. Thank you for explaining this passage to me.

 

[singpeace]

Excerpt taken from
http://http://anduril.ca/bible/essays/ce_rel200.html


Women in the OT and the NT do teach and have authority over men. In 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul instructs Timothy to entrust the Gospel to “faithful people who will be able to teach others,” which is an inclusive exhortation that men and women should teach. Such inclusive exhortations can also be found in 1 Cor 14:26, 31 and Col 3:16. Elsewhere, Paul acknowledges the teaching ministry of women: (a)

Priscilla, who even instructed an Apostle named Apollos (Acts 18:26) and ran a church (and presumably taught) in her house with her husband Aquila (1 Cor 16:19), and (Junia, a woman Paul calls “distinguished among the apostles” (Rom 16:7).

In addition, Phoebe is recognized by Paul as a deaconess of the church, which, though not necessarily a teaching position, remains a position of authority. There are also many other women that Paul thanks or greets in his letters for their hard work and we cannot exclude the possibility that at least some of these were leaders and teachers.

Also, testimony throughout Scripture identifies women as prophetesses. The role and office of prophetess can include both forthtelling and foretelling. The former refers to interpreting and applying Scripture to a given situation, which is essentially the same as teaching. I

n the NT, Anna (Lk 2:36) and Philip's four unnamed daughters (Acts 21:9) are also recognized as prophetesses. Moreover, 1 Corinthians 11:5 demonstrates that many other women possessed this gift.

In the OT, Miriam (Ex 15:20), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14) and Isaiah's wife (Isa 8:3) are given the title prophetess. We must also add the names of two significant OT women leaders that possessed divinely ordained authority over men, namely Deborah and Esther.

If the traditional rendering is accepted then, it is clear that Paul would not only be contradicting himself but the testimony of the rest of Scripture.

 

[versesvsvices]

Interesting. Also far less horrifying than the other responses. I'm really curious as to why Paul says that at all then.

 

[singpeace]

At that time, Jews were subject under Roman law, and Roman law did not permit women to speak or teach publicly.

Also, this was the first time women had even been allowed into the temple to learn. They had many questions - were encouraged to wait until they were back home to ask their questions so as to not disrupt the services too often.

Another point in this passage pertains to the women's dress. At that time, the women in this region were very fashionable and would wear layers of multicolored fabric and put lots of shells and combs in their hair. It was a sort of badge of honor/fashion show and was distracting from what was truly important - the condition of the soul.

In this same letter, Paul also admonishes the men. He tells them to stop gawking at the women, to stop gossiping and to do an honest day's work.

Everyone; men and women alike, were given some constructive criticism in this letter.

 

[Christopher3927]

Interesting. Also far less horrifying than the other responses. I'm really curious as to why Paul says that at all then.

You are only interested in hearing what you want to hear. You will not accept an answer that doesn't tickle your ears. The Bible says not lean on our own understanding, but to trust in the Lord.

I cant post a link because I dont yet have 50 post or greater, but go to gotquestions.org and search women pastors.

 

[Christopher3927]

At that time, Jews were subject under Roman law, and Roman law did not permit women to speak or teach publicly.

Also, this was the first time women had even been allowed into the temple to learn. They had many questions - were encouraged to wait until they were back home to ask their questions so as to not disrupt the services too often.

Another point in this passage pertains to the women's dress. At that time, the women in this region were very fashionable and would wear layers of multicolored fabric and put lots of shells and combs in their hair. It was a sort of badge of honor/fashion show and was distracting from what was truly important - the condition of the soul.

In this same letter, Paul also admonishes the men. He tells them to stop gawking at the women, to stop gossiping and to do an honest day's work.

Everyone; men and women alike, were given some constructive criticism in this letter.

Paul gave his reasons for what he said. Its because man was created first and it was the woman who was deceived in the transgression, not the man. No matter what culture you live in, no matter what church you go to, those facts remain the same.

 

[motherprayer]

Someone once explained it to me like this:

Back when the Bible was written, Christian churches suffered many persecutions, and much danger. It is thought by some that this was to offer protection to the women of the church, so that if they were "raided" so to speak, then they could hope that men would be the targets.

We must take the Bible as a while. Paul also said this:
1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

God has given us women power, if we operate in His spirit and follow His principles on how we should act. Power that shows we are not less, but not more either. We are equal parts of a whole.

 

[Christopher3927]

It would be best if we allow Paul to give us the reasons for why he said this, instead of inserting our own reasons or speculating about it.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

 

[versesvsvices]

You are only interested in hearing what you want to hear. You will not accept an answer that doesn't tickle your ears. The Bible says not lean on our own understanding, but to trust in the Lord.

I cant post a link because I dont yet have 50 post or greater, but go to gotquestions.org and search women pastors.

I'm interested in hearing whatever the truth is. Being horrified by it doesn't mean I don't hear it.

Look, I can't follow a religion just because it's popular and I'm being threatened with hell. There are plenty of religions out there, and they all claim to be the one true religion. Christianity has to speak to me, to tell me it's true, for me to have the ability to believe it. Otherwise, what's the point? Do Christians follow this religion because it speaks to them as true, or because it's one of the only two religions that threaten people with hell? I don't think that "faith" based in only fear of a threat is faith at all.

Paul gave his reasons for what he said. Its because man was created first and it was the woman who was deceived in the transgression, not the man. No matter what culture you live in, no matter what church you go to, those facts remain the same.

I honestly don't understand how people can believe this kind of stuff. I'm really trying here, but this isn't right.

 

[motherprayer]

I'm interested in hearing whatever the truth is. Being horrified by it doesn't mean I don't hear it.

Look, I can't follow a religion just because it's popular and I'm being threatened with hell. There are plenty of religions out there, and they all claim to be the one true religion. Christianity has to speak to me, to tell me it's true, for me to have the ability to believe it. Otherwise, what's the point? Do Christians follow this religion because it speaks to them as true, or because it's one of the only two religions that threaten people with hell? I don't think that "faith" based in only fear of a threat is faith at all.

I honestly don't understand how people can believe this kind of stuff. I'm really trying here, but this isn't right.

I follow Christ because he has shown Himself to me NOW, but way back when, before I truly had experienced Christ, I did follow for awhile just because. But I will tell you now, after being through some pretty interesting stuff, that I follow not out of fear of hell, because I don't fear hell. I follow because I truly believe Jesus died so that I might have life, and have it more abundantly. It is a beautiful feeling!

 

[Christopher3927]

I'm interested in hearing whatever the truth is. Being horrified by it doesn't mean I don't hear it.

Look, I can't follow a religion just because it's popular and I'm being threatened with hell. There are plenty of religions out there, and they all claim to be the one true religion. Christianity has to speak to me, to tell me it's true, for me to have the ability to believe it. Otherwise, what's the point? Do Christians follow this religion because it speaks to them as true, or because it's one of the only two religions that threaten people with hell? I don't think that "faith" based in only fear of a threat is faith at all.


I honestly don't understand how people can believe this kind of stuff. I'm really trying here, but this isn't right.

Keep searching

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Check this article out some time and see what you think...

Tom Brown Ministries - Can Women be Pastors?

 

[Christopher3927]

I'm interested in hearing whatever the truth is. Being horrified by it doesn't mean I don't hear it.

Look, I can't follow a religion just because it's popular and I'm being threatened with hell. There are plenty of religions out there, and they all claim to be the one true religion. Christianity has to speak to me, to tell me it's true, for me to have the ability to believe it. Otherwise, what's the point? Do Christians follow this religion because it speaks to them as true, or because it's one of the only two religions that threaten people with hell? I don't think that "faith" based in only fear of a threat is faith at all.


I honestly don't understand how people can believe this kind of stuff. I'm really trying here, but this isn't right.

You have a very rebellious heart and shame on you for that. Learn to submit to your maker. You are here because you are seeking. God is not going bend truth to fit your way of thinking....you are going to have to change your way of thinking to align with God.

I say this out of love.

God bless you

 

[Christopher3927]

I'm interested in hearing whatever the truth is. Being horrified by it doesn't mean I don't hear it.

Look, I can't follow a religion just because it's popular and I'm being threatened with hell. There are plenty of religions out there, and they all claim to be the one true religion. Christianity has to speak to me, to tell me it's true, for me to have the ability to believe it. Otherwise, what's the point? Do Christians follow this religion because it speaks to them as true, or because it's one of the only two religions that threaten people with hell? I don't think that "faith" based in only fear of a threat is faith at all.


I honestly don't understand how people can believe this kind of stuff. I'm really trying here, but this isn't right.

If you are serious about this "christian" thing send me a private message and lets talk about it.

You are in my prayers

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

That's what the Bible says. If you are gonna reject the Bible because it offends you, then you don't love God with all your heart and all your soul. You want to be satisfied, but real Christians want God to be satisfied and obey what he says.