1 John 2:2 and Calvinism
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According to Calvinist doctrine, 2 Peter 3:9 does not refer to all mankind, but to the elect. God is being patient, waiting for the elect to be compelled by God into trusting in Jesus. But is this what Peter was trying to say? Nope.
Who is going to be destroyed? In the past the world was destroyed by water. Everybody but eight in the Ark of Noah died. Now the world is reserved for destruction by fire. And who will be destroyed? Everybody not in the Ark of Christ.
So when in verse 9, Peter says God is being patient, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentence, he is speaking of everybody that faces destruction. He is waiting so that some may come to repentence and enter the Ark of Christ and not perish but have eternal life.
Here is how Paul put it in 1 Timothy 2:4, (God)"who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." We are to be Christ like even to the wicked, such as a ruler like Nero. God desires all men to be saved, whoever believes in Him. John 3:16.
Who is going to be destroyed? In the past the world was destroyed by water. Everybody but eight in the Ark of Noah died. Now the world is reserved for destruction by fire. And who will be destroyed? Everybody not in the Ark of Christ.
So when in verse 9, Peter says God is being patient, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentence, he is speaking of everybody that faces destruction. He is waiting so that some may come to repentence and enter the Ark of Christ and not perish but have eternal life.
Here is how Paul put it in 1 Timothy 2:4, (God)"who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." We are to be Christ like even to the wicked, such as a ruler like Nero. God desires all men to be saved, whoever believes in Him. John 3:16.
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It is harder to turn loose of all your worldly treasures if you treasure lots of worldly stuff, possessions or relationships, than if you do not treasure worldly stuff.
If salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but on God who has mercy on whom He has mercy, then just exactly what part of salvation does man have a hand in? Faith? But we have nothing that is not given to us? So again, what part, did we create the foundation of the world, did we choose Christ, did we send Christ to save the lost, did we give our Son to be slain? Nope. Does trusting in the finished work of Christ bolster my pride when I am saved by grace through faith. Not according to Paul. The whole effort to say trusting in Christ is not what God says we are to do is ludicrious. What must I, repeat I do to be saved? Believe, repeat believe in Lord Jesus. Acts 16:30-31.
If salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but on God who has mercy on whom He has mercy, then just exactly what part of salvation does man have a hand in? Faith? But we have nothing that is not given to us? So again, what part, did we create the foundation of the world, did we choose Christ, did we send Christ to save the lost, did we give our Son to be slain? Nope. Does trusting in the finished work of Christ bolster my pride when I am saved by grace through faith. Not according to Paul. The whole effort to say trusting in Christ is not what God says we are to do is ludicrious. What must I, repeat I do to be saved? Believe, repeat believe in Lord Jesus. Acts 16:30-31.
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A Brother In Christ
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Van said:
2 cor 4:3 But since our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined out of darkness hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
see the bigger picturer ? van....
we do have a choice.... however
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Bulldog, I am assuming you are referring to Chapter Three of Second (2) Peter and not First (1) Peter.
Please explain your view of Peter's use of "you" in Chapter 3 of Second Peter, then I will discuss whether I agree or not. When I asked another Calvinist to answer just one of the dozens of questions He had asked me, he refused saying he was unable rather than unwilling to answer a question. When I asked another, why he was asking a question, he said it was not to learn but to make a point. The question before the house is are you willing to explain your point?
Please explain your view of Peter's use of "you" in Chapter 3 of Second Peter, then I will discuss whether I agree or not. When I asked another Calvinist to answer just one of the dozens of questions He had asked me, he refused saying he was unable rather than unwilling to answer a question. When I asked another, why he was asking a question, he said it was not to learn but to make a point. The question before the house is are you willing to explain your point?
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BIC, I see the big picture. For God so loved the world of fallen mankind that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. And God has not foreordained who can believe. That is the big picture. If you study scripture looking at it in that light, all of scripture fits perfectly together.
Scripture says, in answer to the question, what must I do to be saved, that we are to believe in Lord Jesus. Jesus says few are those who find the narrow way that leads to life.
Faith comes from hearing, and not from an imaginary inner call, never mentioned in Scripture.
Scripture says, in answer to the question, what must I do to be saved, that we are to believe in Lord Jesus. Jesus says few are those who find the narrow way that leads to life.
Faith comes from hearing, and not from an imaginary inner call, never mentioned in Scripture.
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LukeBritt, I am a non-Calvinist. Your point being???? Perhaps you are intending to imply that I only tear down and never build up? False. I support several Calvinistic views such as once you are "in Christ" you will inherit eternal life and you will never want to leave Jesus. Your faith is protected, but not your walk.
Also I believe in the corruption of original sin, everyone in Adam is not only separated from God by their unholy sinful state, but also corrupted so they are predisposed to sin. I believe God saves us, we do not save ourselves by self selecting ourselves for salvation.
So by the numbers, Total Depravity as defined by Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 demonstrates that the unregenerate can seek God, can understand the gospel, and at the end of the day either accept it or reject it.
Unconditional Election is a mistaken view of scripture, God chooses folks based on their heart felt beliefs. James 2:5 demonstrates that God chooses folks that love Him.
Limited Atonement is tricky. Limited Redemption is a mistaken view of scripture, for Christ died for all mankind, but only those of God's choosing are spiritually baptized into Christ and thus made "at one with Christ."
Irresistible Grace is a mistaken view of scripture, love does not demand its own way. God reveals himself through the work of the Holy Spirit, such as the inspired Word of God, or perhaps directly via dreams or visions and the like, or through the words and lives of believers, so while the gospel is convicting, the conviction is ours.
Perserverance of the Saints is the correct view of scripture, no one can snatch us out of God's hand.
In a nutshell, Calvinism teaches we were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing we can do during our physical lives to alter that outcome. I believe scripture teaches that salvation is available to all, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, and God has not foreordained who can believe.
Also I believe in the corruption of original sin, everyone in Adam is not only separated from God by their unholy sinful state, but also corrupted so they are predisposed to sin. I believe God saves us, we do not save ourselves by self selecting ourselves for salvation.
So by the numbers, Total Depravity as defined by Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. Matthew 13:1-23 demonstrates that the unregenerate can seek God, can understand the gospel, and at the end of the day either accept it or reject it.
Unconditional Election is a mistaken view of scripture, God chooses folks based on their heart felt beliefs. James 2:5 demonstrates that God chooses folks that love Him.
Limited Atonement is tricky. Limited Redemption is a mistaken view of scripture, for Christ died for all mankind, but only those of God's choosing are spiritually baptized into Christ and thus made "at one with Christ."
Irresistible Grace is a mistaken view of scripture, love does not demand its own way. God reveals himself through the work of the Holy Spirit, such as the inspired Word of God, or perhaps directly via dreams or visions and the like, or through the words and lives of believers, so while the gospel is convicting, the conviction is ours.
Perserverance of the Saints is the correct view of scripture, no one can snatch us out of God's hand.
In a nutshell, Calvinism teaches we were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing we can do during our physical lives to alter that outcome. I believe scripture teaches that salvation is available to all, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, and God has not foreordained who can believe.
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When anyone looks through past posts, it is very clear that it is the Arminians who use purple prose against the Calvinists rather than the other way around. Furthermore, the Arminians have a habit of failing to take the full context into consideration.
But when you explain the true meaning of the text under consideration, they just disappear. Explain the scripture so thoroughly that they have no objection that they can make against it doesn't changethem. They just act like they did not read it, and continue to make the same mistakes. One of the most common instances of this is the way they fall silent when 2Pet. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:1-8, and 1 Jn. 2;2 are carefully explained.
Just try to get them to explain where (and how) Ps.103:17 fits into their theology. Yet, in spite of their not being able to deal in depth with these verses, in spite of their tendency to flee from thorough consideration of texts, they persist in ridiculing those who put forth explanations that refute Arminianism.
But when you explain the true meaning of the text under consideration, they just disappear. Explain the scripture so thoroughly that they have no objection that they can make against it doesn't changethem. They just act like they did not read it, and continue to make the same mistakes. One of the most common instances of this is the way they fall silent when 2Pet. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:1-8, and 1 Jn. 2;2 are carefully explained.
Just try to get them to explain where (and how) Ps.103:17 fits into their theology. Yet, in spite of their not being able to deal in depth with these verses, in spite of their tendency to flee from thorough consideration of texts, they persist in ridiculing those who put forth explanations that refute Arminianism.
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Rolf Ernest, I see an argument against the man, and assertions of sucessful defense of verses, and claims no one has refuted them. In short a post of no merit. Purple prose.
Lets go over Psalm 103:17. "But the lovingkindness of the Lord [Yahweh]is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children."
God is love, and His love existed in eternity past, before time began, and streaches to eternity future, after the end of time. And who enjoys this full span of eternal love? Those that fear the Lord. And just when do we fear the Lord? Why during our physical lifetime. Or not. So Psalm 103:17 says if we choose to love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our understanding, if we fear the Lord rather than live as if He did not exist, we will enjoy the full span of His eternal love.
Is David trying to say God loved us as individuals before time began? Nope. See verse 11, what David is saying is God's love knows no bounds, it is big. Notice in David's example in verse 13, that the love is applied during the lifetime of the child.
My daughter is pregnant. In a sense, now bear with me and do not take this too far, she is my creation and I love her and have already directed my love toward my coming grandson, Lord willing. So the idea of God's love being from everlasting does not mean God has preselected folks to love, but only that in eternity past He directed His love toward those that will choose to fear the Lord.
Lets go over Psalm 103:17. "But the lovingkindness of the Lord [Yahweh]is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children."
God is love, and His love existed in eternity past, before time began, and streaches to eternity future, after the end of time. And who enjoys this full span of eternal love? Those that fear the Lord. And just when do we fear the Lord? Why during our physical lifetime. Or not. So Psalm 103:17 says if we choose to love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our understanding, if we fear the Lord rather than live as if He did not exist, we will enjoy the full span of His eternal love.
Is David trying to say God loved us as individuals before time began? Nope. See verse 11, what David is saying is God's love knows no bounds, it is big. Notice in David's example in verse 13, that the love is applied during the lifetime of the child.
My daughter is pregnant. In a sense, now bear with me and do not take this too far, she is my creation and I love her and have already directed my love toward my coming grandson, Lord willing. So the idea of God's love being from everlasting does not mean God has preselected folks to love, but only that in eternity past He directed His love toward those that will choose to fear the Lord.
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A Brother In Christ
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A Brother In Christ said:
your picture is a little narrow van ..no offence
People have a choice but it it clear there are other beings involved
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Van--In post #96, you say that Psalm 103:17 says "if we choose to love God."
Are you familiar with the verse that says, "add not to His words lest He rebuke you." ? The verse you quoted does NOT anywhere say "if we choose to love God..." Why did you add those words? I can understand someone including explanatory notes alongside texts of scripture, BUT it is not permitted to include explanatory notes which contradict scripture, and your saying that Ps.103:17 "says if we choose to love God" is contradictory to the text itself AND contradictory to what the Bible says about those who fear God, and HOW they come to do so.
Also, your interpretation altogether avoids the FACT that Ps. 103:17 DOES say that His mercy is "From" everlasting "to" everlasting UPON CERTAIN ONES. But your interpretation disregards that and represents God's mercy as merely an attribute existing in a vacuum; as if it were there, but it was not "from" everlasting "to" everlasting upon certain ones. That is a clear contradiction of what the text ACTUALLY says. Therefore, please justify your handling of the text.
Are you familiar with the verse that says, "add not to His words lest He rebuke you." ? The verse you quoted does NOT anywhere say "if we choose to love God..." Why did you add those words? I can understand someone including explanatory notes alongside texts of scripture, BUT it is not permitted to include explanatory notes which contradict scripture, and your saying that Ps.103:17 "says if we choose to love God" is contradictory to the text itself AND contradictory to what the Bible says about those who fear God, and HOW they come to do so.
Also, your interpretation altogether avoids the FACT that Ps. 103:17 DOES say that His mercy is "From" everlasting "to" everlasting UPON CERTAIN ONES. But your interpretation disregards that and represents God's mercy as merely an attribute existing in a vacuum; as if it were there, but it was not "from" everlasting "to" everlasting upon certain ones. That is a clear contradiction of what the text ACTUALLY says. Therefore, please justify your handling of the text.
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Rolf, first I provided the text then provided commentary concerning the text. To charge me with adding to the text is without merit, simply an ad homenin.
Here is what I said, " So Psalm 103:17 says if we choose to love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our understanding, if we fear the Lord rather than live as if He did not exist, we will enjoy the full span of His eternal love."
Next you claim I avoided the idea that the love began in eternity past. But this is a complete falsehood. Here is what I said, "God is love, and His love existed in eternity past, before time began, and stretches to eternity future, after the end of time. And who enjoys this full span of eternal love? Those that fear the Lord." So I did not ignore the fact that God's love for us existed in eternity past. What I said that differred from your view, is God's love in eternity past was directed toward those who would fear God, (hence was not existing undirected in a vacuum) and not to those who ignore God and live as if God does not exist. I said His love was applied to us as individuals when we were alive just as indicated in verse 13.
I love medium steaks, and when I sit down and order one, I can say I love medium steak. And when one arrives, I can say my steadfast love for you has existed from before you were created, and my love for you will last long after my plate is empty.
An underlying premise of Calvinism is God is unable to conceive general notions, he is limited to thinking only in specifics, so God cannot love us as a generic kind of person, one who fears the Lord, without foreseeing us as specific individuals. Silly yes, but they believe it with all their hearts.
You claim that scripture says if you fear the Lord you do not love the Lord, but no reference is provided. But good ol Van provides references for his assertions. 2 Corinthinans 5:11-15. Paul knows the fear of the Lord (verse 11) and the love of Christ controls him (verse 14.) So they are not mutally exclusive but go hand in hand.
Now my study bible provides a note next to the word translated "fear" and says revere. So the word could mean the same as love. So I simply provided a contextual straightforward understanding of the text without pouring Calvinism into it.
Now lets look at Jeremiah 32:40, where God says He will put the fear of the Lord in the hearts. This is a reference to the New or Everlasting Covenant, not the Old Covenant. This is talking about our conversion "in Christ" and not about the fear of the Lord that we might have prior to conversion. Why is it that Calvinism trys to transplant the New Convenant into the dispensation of the OT. To hide the fact that folks in the OT feared God!!!! And none of these folks were regenerated, no one was made alive together with Christ until after Christ was sacrificed on Calvary.
Calvinism simply does not stand up to study, when specific verses are studied in context, rather than alluded to.
Here is what I said, " So Psalm 103:17 says if we choose to love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our understanding, if we fear the Lord rather than live as if He did not exist, we will enjoy the full span of His eternal love."
Next you claim I avoided the idea that the love began in eternity past. But this is a complete falsehood. Here is what I said, "God is love, and His love existed in eternity past, before time began, and stretches to eternity future, after the end of time. And who enjoys this full span of eternal love? Those that fear the Lord." So I did not ignore the fact that God's love for us existed in eternity past. What I said that differred from your view, is God's love in eternity past was directed toward those who would fear God, (hence was not existing undirected in a vacuum) and not to those who ignore God and live as if God does not exist. I said His love was applied to us as individuals when we were alive just as indicated in verse 13.
I love medium steaks, and when I sit down and order one, I can say I love medium steak. And when one arrives, I can say my steadfast love for you has existed from before you were created, and my love for you will last long after my plate is empty.
An underlying premise of Calvinism is God is unable to conceive general notions, he is limited to thinking only in specifics, so God cannot love us as a generic kind of person, one who fears the Lord, without foreseeing us as specific individuals. Silly yes, but they believe it with all their hearts.
You claim that scripture says if you fear the Lord you do not love the Lord, but no reference is provided. But good ol Van provides references for his assertions. 2 Corinthinans 5:11-15. Paul knows the fear of the Lord (verse 11) and the love of Christ controls him (verse 14.) So they are not mutally exclusive but go hand in hand.
Now my study bible provides a note next to the word translated "fear" and says revere. So the word could mean the same as love. So I simply provided a contextual straightforward understanding of the text without pouring Calvinism into it.
Now lets look at Jeremiah 32:40, where God says He will put the fear of the Lord in the hearts. This is a reference to the New or Everlasting Covenant, not the Old Covenant. This is talking about our conversion "in Christ" and not about the fear of the Lord that we might have prior to conversion. Why is it that Calvinism trys to transplant the New Convenant into the dispensation of the OT. To hide the fact that folks in the OT feared God!!!! And none of these folks were regenerated, no one was made alive together with Christ until after Christ was sacrificed on Calvary.
Calvinism simply does not stand up to study, when specific verses are studied in context, rather than alluded to.
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