1 John 2:2 and Calvinism

[dreamaccount2000]

2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Who is the world? Please offer scripture

 

[Henry Ross]

Maybe anyone that is saved is a calvinist.

 

[Scholar in training]

I don't have Scripture for you, but I know the Calvinist interpretation of this verse.

Calvinists will tell you that this verse means Jesus' sacrifice is not for one specific group (the Israelites), but for the elect from many different groups and nations.

Arminians will tell you that this verse means that Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone; i.e. that Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will accept that sacrifice.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

In Galatians 2:7,8 you can read how Paul was sent to the gentiles, and Peter and John were sent to preach to the Jewish people. There was much confusion over the newness of the Gospel now being snet not only tothe Jews, but to the gentiles also. Before Paul began his second missionary journey, he had to go to Jerusalem to settle a dispute between the disciples concerning the Jew/gentile issue. Notice as you read of Paul's journeys the many difficulties he encountered from BOTH the jews and the gentiles because he was taking the message to the gentiles. If you read closely, you can see evidence that there was much confusion, and John, a Jew, and an apostle to the Jewish people had this confusion in mind when he said, "And He is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the whole world..." That is for every nation, for the people of every tongue and nation as opposed to the earlier idea that the Messiahwas to be strictly for the Jews.

In Paul's first letter to Timothy, Paul is giving Timothy counsel concerning the work that Timothy was to undertake among the gentiles. It was important that a young jewish disciple who would be cast into the maelstrom of conflict over the Jew/gentile issue be encouraged in the validity of his ministry, and THAT is what 1 Tim.2:3-8 is
all about. Study that section with that perspective in mind.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

In Galatians chapter one, you can read how Paul was sent to the gentiles, and Peter and John were sent to preach to the Jewish people. There was much confusion over the newness of the Gospel now being snet not only tothe Jews, but to the gentiles also. Before Paul began his second missionary journey, he had to go to Jerusalem to settle a dispute between the disciples concerning the Jew/gentile issue. Notice as you read of Paul's journeys the many difficulties he encountered from BOTH the jews and the gentiles because he was taking the message to the gentiles. If you read closely, you can see evidence that there was much confusion, and John, a Jew, and an apostle to the Jewish people had this confusion in mind when he said, "And He is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the whole world..." That is for every nation, for the people of every tongue and nation as opposed to the earlier idea that the Messiahwas to be strictly for the Jews.

In Paul's first letter to Timothy, Paul is giving Timothy counsel concerning the work that Timothy was to undertake among the gentiles. It was important that a young jewish disciple who would be cast into the maelstrom of conflict over the Jew/gentile issue be encouraged in the validity of his ministry, and THAT is what 1 Tim.2:3-8 is
all about. Study that section with that perspective in mind.

So are you saying that us means Jews and The world means Gentiles?. This would mean every individual since everyone is either Jew or Gentile.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

I don't have Scripture for you, but I know the Calvinist interpretation of this verse.

Calvinists will tell you that this verse means Jesus' sacrifice is not for one specific group (the Israelites), but for the elect from many different groups and nations.

And what is there basis for saying the world means elect?

 

[cygnusx1]

It is the same 'world' that has had their sins taken AWAY!

 

[dreamaccount2000]

It is the same 'world' that has had their sins taken AWAY!

So you say the world means the elect in this verse? How do you support this claim?

 

[Scholar in training]

It is the same 'world' that has had their sins taken AWAY!

Isn't it a little redundant of John to say, "and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours [the elect] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [the elect]"?

 

[Van]

In 1 John 2:2, scripture says "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and ;not for ours only, but also for the whole world." Thus the idea is not for the nations of the world, but the sins of the world, which is inclusive of everybody, for everybody sins. You cannot exclude some "preselected non-elect" from the statement for their sins are propitiated.

In 1 Timothy 2:3-8, I did not see that understanding that the gospel was not just for the Jews but also for the Gentiles (which refers to everybody else, thus all men are Jews and Gentiles) alters the scope of the passage. Paul says God our Saviour desires all men to be saved. This is not saying some Jews and some Gentiles, but everybody. God wants everybody to hear the gospel so they can come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all, but this was not revealed initially, but the testamony was given at the proper time, after Jesus was crucified to draw all men to Himself.

In Romans 5:18 Paul makes clear that the scope and extent of the fallen, which includes all mankind, is equaled by the scope and extent of the redemption, which includes all mankind. The effort to wedge in "all kinds of men" to make room for the doctrine of a preselected group of elect folks simply will not stand up to study.

John uses the term translated "world" to mean all of fallen mankind.

The world



According to A.W. Pink, “Kosmos is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.”



Well, lets look at them carefully and exactly from the NASB:



John 1:29 “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”



Here the world is used to indicate not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles will be saved. It is unnatural and forced to assert that only the part of the world that will be saved is in view.



John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”



Here again, the world includes everybody, those that will be saved and those that will not be saved. God sent Christ into the world to save sinners. Whoever believes in Him will be saved.



John 3:17, “For God did not sent the Son into the World to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.”



Another clear verse where world means everybody, and the offer of salvation is extended to everybody that hears the gospel and believes.



John 6:33, “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”



Once again, world includes everybody. The verse does not say gives life to everybody in the world, only that Jesus gives life to anyone in the world that believes in Jesus.



John 12:46, “I have come as a light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.”



This one is very clear, Jesus is the light of the world which is in darkness.



John 12:47, “And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.



This is crystal – the world includes both those that will not be saved and those that will be saved.



1 Corinthians 4:9, “For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.”



Again, it is unnatural and forced to say something other than saints and sinners are in view. To assert otherwise is to miss the irony of the passage.



2 Corinthians 5:19, “…God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”



Clearly we see the reconciliation of Christ on the cross as a completed work of reconciliation, available to the world, Jews and Gentiles, but the gift must be received. Therefore, verse 20, “we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”



In summary, the premise that these passages use world to mean only the elect is without merit. The unforced and natural reading –saints and sinners, Jew and Gentiles, all of fallen mankind, fits in every case.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

In 1 John 2:2, scripture says "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and ;not for ours only, but also for the whole world." Thus the idea is not for the nations of the world, but the sins of the world, which is inclusive of everybody, for everybody sins. You cannot exclude some "preselected non-elect" from the statement for their sins are propitiated.

Very good observation.

.

In Romans 5:18 Paul makes clear that the scope and extent of the fallen, which includes all mankind, is equaled by the scope and extent of the redemption, which includes all mankind. The effort to wedge in "all kinds of men" to make room for the doctrine of a preselected group of elect folks simply will not stand up to study.

Another good point

In summary, the premise that these passages use world to mean only the elect is without merit. The unforced and natural reading –saints and sinners, Jew and Gentiles, all of fallen mankind, fits in every case.

You are correct. You have made a very good case.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

I would like ot see each side make a case for what the world means in 1st john using 1st John. Look at how the word "world" is used thru 1st john and try to make it mean elect. It just does not work.

 

[cygnusx1]

I would like ot see each side make a case for what the world means in 1st john using 1st John. Look at how the word "world" is used thru 1st john and try to make it mean elect. It just does not work.

and it just doesn't work to make it mean every single person who ever lived!

"The world has gone after him" from John's gospel .

There are aprrox 7 different meanings for the word 'World' Kosmos .......

so I hope you are prepared for some study ...

 

[Bulldog]

I would like ot see each side make a case for what the world means in 1st john using 1st John. Look at how the word "world" is used thru 1st john and try to make it mean elect. It just does not work.

It doesn't work to try to make it "every individual" or "the whole of humanity" either. I did a work search through all of John's epistles and this is the result:

In the following, "world" is used in the sense of evil/flleshly things and people, which wouldn't make sense when applied to 1 John 2:2.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone love
the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away
along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17)​

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. (1 John 3:1)

Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. (1 John 3:13)

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? (1 John 3:17)​

Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. (1 John 4:4-5)

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:4-5)

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)​

In the following, it seems to be used in the sense of the world as a place, i.e the earth. This wouldn't make much sense when put into 1 John 2:2.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (1 John 4:3)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)​

In the following, it seems to be used in the sense of the elect.

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. (1 John 4:9)

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14)​

Conclusion: there is not a single definitive way "world is used in John's epistles, and the predominant use is "evil/ fleshly things and people."

 

[Van]

John uses "world" to indicate fallen mankind. The Greek term "kosmos" carries with it the idea of an arrangement or order, so the idea is the disorder or condition of fallen mankind.

So the command "do not love the world or the things of the world" refers to relationships with that which is unholy, either unholy ideas such as greed, or unholy things such as the treasures the earth has to offer. So 1 John 2:15-17 works with the unholy condition of fallen mankind.

1 John 3:1 says that the holiness is separated from unholiness, because we are in Christ and therefore holy, the unholy world or system of fallen mankind does not know us, because it does not know God. The unholy world of fallen mankind does not have a relationship with holiness. So 1 John 3:1 works with the unholy condition of fallen mankind.

Ditto for 1 John 3:13. Now 1 John 3:17 is a good verse to consider. The world's goods could simply be a reference to physical wealth, security or comfort - the perishable things of this world. But consider the point John is making. Having stuff of the world and not sharing. Clinging to the treasures of the world. Clinging to the unholy value system of me first. And so, even 1 John 3:17 works with the unholy system of fallen mankind.

1 John 4:4-5 meshes perfectly with the understanding that the idea being conveyed by the term "world" for "he" who is in the world refers to Satan, which is He who rules the world, and thus refers to the value system of all of fallen mankind. Everyone in Adam is part of the unholy world of fallen mankind. Ditto for 1 John 5:19

In 1 John 5:4-5 we see that being placed in Christ, we overcome being initially in the fallen world of being in Adam.

In 1 John 4:1 we see that many false prophets have gone out into the world of fallen mankind. The unholy system of the world includes false teachers and false doctrine, for Satan is the father of lies. 1 John 4:3 makes it clear that false teaching existed in the world of fallen mankind even during NT times. Ditto for 2 John 1:7.

1 John 4:9 clearly indicates God sent Jesus into the unholy world of fallen mankind to save that which was lost, to be a ransom for all men.

Jesus is the savior of the world, all of fallen mankind, and what must we do to be saved? Believe in Lord Jesus, the Savior of the world.

In summary, the effort to draw distinctions without a difference, in order redefine world to mean the elect, fails when each verse is considered contextually. The "World" is the system of fallen mankind and includes all men and their unholiness. This is the meaning John intended.

 

[Bulldog]

That's a bit misleading Van. "Fallen man" cannot include Christians because "know" Christ, nor do Christians "hate" the audience of John.

1 John 4:9 clearly indicates God sent Jesus into the unholy world of fallen mankind to save that which was lost, to be a ransom for all men.

'God sent his only Son into the [all of fallen mankind] so that [a group of people] might live through him' does not follow.

Jesus is the savior of the world, all of fallen mankind, and what must we do to be saved? Believe in Lord Jesus, the Savior of the world.

Van, could you define the word "saviour"?

 

[Van]

All Christians were fallen men before they were saved, they were in Adam and then placed in Christ. Nothing misleading about the concept.

In 1 John 4:9 God sent Christ into the world, into the system of fallen mankind, and in doing so, some of fallen mankind believed in Lord Jesus and were saved. Thus the love of God was manifested in those saved, for they would not have been saved if God had not sent His one of a kind Son. And through the sacrifice of Christ we were made alive together with Christ, so that we might live through Him.
To be the Saviour of the world means Jesus is the Savior of the World, and does not mean He saves everyone in the World. The world, those in the system of fallen mankind can only be saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. The World has no other Savior. Again, the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. But in order to have your sin forgiven, you must trust in Christ, and when when you are washed by His blood, He takes away the sin of the world.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

and it just doesn't work to make it mean every single person who ever lived!

"The world has gone after him" from John's gospel .

There are aprrox 7 different meanings for the word 'World' Kosmos .......

so I hope you are prepared for some study ...

I Am prepared for some study. You have to prove the meaning of the world in 1st john.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

Lets look at the meaning of the world in 1st John and keep things in context.19 ¶ And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness
1 john 5:19--
Notice this is the only other time John uses the phrase " Whole world"
Can the whole world possibly be elect Gentiles?

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not 1john 3:1

The world knows not Christ nor the Christian.
Notice here again we have "us" contrasted with the world.
This is the context of the world.--Every individual

1 john 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world

Strong's Number: 4990 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
swthvr from (4982)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Soter 7:1003,1132
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
so-tare' Noun Masculine

Definition
saviour, deliverer, preserver

Same word is used here:
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 1 tim 1:1

 

[A Brother In Christ]

2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Who is the world? Please offer scripture

are we judged by the bad thing we do or by the good works that we do.

this is why being put into THEE CHRIST is huge

God the Father counts us to have died/burried/ resurected With Him